Missing Verses in Old Manuscripts

  • Thread starter Thread starter CutlerB
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks for the thorough explanation, Patrick (as always)!

I don’t think that no one holds to the Augustinian theory anymore. Patrick only described two theories. He did not say that they were the only theories held today. I looked through the introduction to the four Gospels in the Ignatius Study New Testament and it gave four, including the the Griesbach and Farrer hypotheses, but also giving the Augustinian and the Two-Source Hypothesis, which it says is the majority opinion, and I would imagine it is the overwhelming majority if my experience is anything to go by. It seems like every popular account takes for granted Markan priority and the existence of a Q source.

If you want to know what is permitted for Catholics to believe, I would look through the documents of the Pontifical Bible Commission. There is undoubtedly something among them on the “Synoptic Question.”
There’s a broad scholarly consensus - including both historical and theological conservatives - that Markan priority seems virtually certain based on the internal evidence of the Gospels. The real debate is to whether it’s legitimate to invoke a hypothetical Q-document to explain the material that Matthew and Luke have in common against Mark.
 
So no one really holds to the Augustinian theory any more? To be honest, things as this make me feel uncomfortable, since I would trust the Fathers more than modern-day scholars trying to reconstruct the order in which they were written. Isn’t the reason we find the Gospels arranged as they are in our Bibles because the Church canonised them that way, in agreement with Saint Augustine?
It’s not that no one holds the Augustinian theory any more; there is a minority which subscribes to the idea. It’s that the Augustinian theory in itself, despite having a claim to be the traditional solution, is seen as rather weak when compared to mainstream theories like the Q theory or even Griesbach-Farmer; it doesn’t solve as many questions as the other possible scenarios do.

Now many Catholic Griesbachians (for example Dennis Barton, to whom Karl refers to in his post) often try to claim that the Griesbach-Farmer theory is ‘traditional’ as well by pointing out that Clement of Alexandria (according to a second-hand report by Eusebius of Caesarea) once seemed to propose a Matthew-Luke-Mark order of the publication of the gospels - which Eusebius claims was “a tradition which [Clement] had received from the elders before him.”

Again, in the same books Clement has set down a tradition which he had received from the elders before him, in regard to the order of the Gospels, to the following effect. He says that the Gospels containing the genealogies were written first, and that the Gospel according to Mark was composed in the following circumstances:—

Peter having preached the word publicly at Rome, and by the Spirit proclaimed the Gospel, those who were present, who were numerous, entreated Mark, inasmuch as he had attended him from an early period, and remembered what had been said, to write down what had been spoken. On his composing the Gospel, he handed it to those who had made the request to him; which coming to Peter’s knowledge, he neither hindered nor encouraged. But John, the last of all, seeing that what was corporeal was set forth in the Gospels, on the entreaty of his intimate friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel.

But the problem is that despite Clement’s claim, he is really the only surviving early Christian author who unambiguously refers to such an order. Most of the sources we have which do refer to or write on the order of the gospels always seem to advocate the sequence of Matthew-Mark-Luke: in other words, Clement is apparently in a minority on this one. (Now Griesbachians will try to get around this by interpreting these sources as actually meaning that the writers had in mind the Matthew-Luke-Mark order all along - but personally, I find most of the ‘evidence’ to this claim rather contrived and circumstantial.) Not to mention that - as Jimmy Akin points out here - that Clement’s explanation itself has a crucial difference with the Griesbachian theory. Griesbachians hold that Mark’s gospel is a combination and an abridged version of Matthew and Luke - or in one version, that Peter did so and Mark had Peter transcribed. But what Clement says is slightly different, which is that Mark wrote it apparently without Peter’s direct involvement, because “he remembered what had been said” by Peter in his preaching. In fact, there is even the question of whether Clement was really referring to the chronological order the gospels were published at all in the fragment.
  • In a few manuscripts, you have the gospels ordered as Matthew-John-Luke-Mark, the so-called ‘Western’ order of the gospels. Some Griesbachians will latch on to this as ‘evidence’ of the Matthew-Luke-Mark order being a widespread idea in antiquity, but IMHO they’re really missing the point: Matthew and John were placed first in this because they were apostles (and perhaps not coincidentally, these were the two most popular gospels among the early Christians - we have more fragments of Matthew and John than any other gospel), while Luke and Mark were placed last because they were disciples of the apostles. (My personal hunch is that perhaps another reason why Mark was placed last is because it’s really the least-popular - since it was seen as being just a shorter version of Matthew - and consequently, the worst-attested gospel in antiquity: we only have two papyri of it from before the 4th century!) So Matthew and John (the longest of the two placed first, in descending order of length), and Luke and Mark (again, in descending order of length).
 
There is also the possibility of Peter’s preaching coming from both the gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke in order to heal the division between Jewish and Gentile converts.

We know that in Rome, speeches were often taken down by scribes using shorthand. If ‘Mark’s remembering’ of Peter’s preaching was really a short-hand copy then this would solve criticisms against non-Markan priority including the writing of Mark being in ‘more primitive’ Greek.

Also, instead of seeing Matthew and Luke developing more Jewish and more Gentile friendly gospels from Mark, Mark’s gospel would reflect Peter’s preaching which sought to limit the differences of Matthew’s gospel with Luke’s more gentile friendly adaption.

Such a view not only is in agreement with early Church tradition of how the gospels were written, explain the difference of esteem held by early Christians towards the difference Gospels, but also better reflect the known historical spread of Christianity from Judaism to gentile lands and the difficulties such a spread faced.
 
I shall do that, thank you very much. 🙂
Here’s your document.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19120626_questione-sinottica_lt.html

Since most people on this forum probably do not read Latin, I will provide my own quick (and flawed) English translation. I tried to more or less translate “word-for-word” as much as English allows for sake of comparison.

PONTIFICAL BIBLICAL COMMISSION

CONCERNING THE SYNOPTIC QUESTION
OR CONCERNING THE MUTUAL RELATIONS
BETWEEN THE FIRST THREE GOSPELS


To the following questions, The Pontifical Commission “De Re Biblica” has so judged to respond.

I. Whether, on the condition of those things being observed which according to preceding statutes must be observed entirely, especially concerning the authenticity and integrity of the three Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, and concerning the substantial identity of the Greek Gospel of Matthew with its primitive original, and concerning the order of times in which the same had been written, it is permitted, so as to explain similarities or differences between so many diverse and opposed oppositas] sentences of the authors, for exegetes to freely dispute even the hypotheses of tradition whether written or oral, or, additionally, to speak of one’s dependence either on one prior or multiple prior?

R. Affirmative.

II. Whether, they ought to be thought to observe those rules which are are established above, who, by no testimony of supported tradition or historical argument, foolishly embrace the hypothesis commonly called the “Two Source Hypothesis,” which contends to explain the composition of the Greek Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke chiefly from their dependence on the Gospel of Mark and a collection, so called, of the Lord’s sayings; and are in good health valeat] to defend it freely?

R. Negative to both parts.

If you want to know how you should interpret this, the Catholic Encyclopedia describes the authority of the commission’s pronouncements at that time.

The Commission though formed like a Congregation is not a Congregation but seemingly of lower rank. Its decisions are approved by the pope and published by his command. Such approval, when given in formâ communi, does not change the nature of the decisions as emanating from a Congregation or Commission, nor does it make them specifically pontifical acts; much less does it imply an exercise of the pope’s personal prerogative of infallibility. Hence they are not infallible or unchangeable, though they must be received with obedience and interior assent, by which we judge that the doctrine proposed is safe and to be accepted because of the authority by which it is presented. These decisions are not the opinions of a private assembly, but an official directive norm; to question them publicly would be lacking in respect and obedience to legitimate authority. We are not hindered from private study of the reasons on which they are based, and if some scholar should find solid arguments against a decision they should be set before the Commission.
newadvent.org/cathen/02557a.htm
 
Not to mention that - as Jimmy Akin points out here - that Clement’s explanation itself has a crucial difference with the Griesbachian theory. Griesbachians hold that Mark’s gospel is a combination and an abridged version of Matthew and Luke - or in one version, that Peter did so and Mark had Peter transcribed. But what Clement says is slightly different, which is that Mark wrote it apparently without Peter’s direct involvement, because “he remembered what had been said” by Peter in his preaching.
To be fair, Patrick, the essential part of such a hypothesis is not that St. Peter himself commissioned Mark to write a Gospel, but that he undertook a harmonization of the already existing Matthew and Luke, and that St. Mark recorded what Peter said, whether immediately or sometime after the fact and whether by Peter’s commission or by Mark’s own initiative.
 
Matthew and John were both apostles and eyewitnesses. With the help of the Holy Spirit–is there any reason why they couldn’t be authors?

Is there any chance that Mark or Luke personally knew Jesus while he was alive on planet Earth?

I’ve always heard that Mark got most of his gospel from Peter and Luke got most of his gospel from Paul. Why couldn’t this have been possible?

I don’t know who got what from whom–what I object to is the view that the gospel writers were a bunch of cut and paster copiers and that the Holy Spirit didn’t have anything to do with their accounts. Who believes that?

I would think that all the gospel writers used all their personal knowledge as eyewitnesses–or if they weren’t eyewitnesses they relied on MANY other christians and made sure what they were writing was true when they gave their accounts.

I believe as they were writing that they prayed to the Holy Spirit for help and that He helped them!

They weren’t dictation machines but they were TRUE authors but don’t believe for one minute that they weren’t helped by the Holy Spirit.

Does what I’m saying make any sense? It is my opinion that Matthew was written before the destruction of the temple and that Mark and Luke were written before Peter and Paul died and that John was written last.

What are the chances that these opinions are true?

Speculate: when did Luke and Mark first come into contact with any of Jesus’ disciples? I don’t know the answer–maybe there isn’t an answer that can be proven–I’d just like to hear some opinions.
 
I don’t know who got what from whom–what I object to is the view that the gospel writers were a bunch of cut and paster copiers and that the Holy Spirit didn’t have anything to do with their accounts. Who believes that?
Secular historians would argue that.
 
Matthew and John were both apostles and eyewitnesses. With the help of the Holy Spirit–is there any reason why they couldn’t be authors?

Is there any chance that Mark or Luke personally knew Jesus while he was alive on planet Earth?

I’ve always heard that Mark got most of his gospel from Peter and Luke got most of his gospel from Paul. Why couldn’t this have been possible?

I don’t know who got what from whom–what I object to is the view that the gospel writers were a bunch of cut and paster copiers and that the Holy Spirit didn’t have anything to do with their accounts. Who believes that?

I would think that all the gospel writers used all their personal knowledge as eyewitnesses–or if they weren’t eyewitnesses they relied on MANY other christians and made sure what they were writing was true when they gave their accounts.

I believe as they were writing that they prayed to the Holy Spirit for help and that He helped them!

They weren’t dictation machines but they were TRUE authors but don’t believe for one minute that they weren’t helped by the Holy Spirit.

Does what I’m saying make any sense? It is my opinion that Matthew was written before the destruction of the temple and that Mark and Luke were written before Peter and Paul died and that John was written last.

What are the chances that these opinions are true?

Speculate: when did Luke and Mark first come into contact with any of Jesus’ disciples? I don’t know the answer–maybe there isn’t an answer that can be proven–I’d just like to hear some opinions.
There’s really two ways here: you can either posit a literary independence among the evangelists (in other words, they wrote without depending on each other’s gospels), or you can posit the opposite, that there’s a literary interdependence. Most of the theories in vogue today take it for granted that the synoptic gospels are interdependent on each other. That’s because under normal circumstances, the extent of the verbatim agreement among the synoptic gospels would lead one to conclude that they have a literary relationship. The general structure of Matthew, Mark and Luke are the same, they share many of the same pericopes (self-contained units or episodes), even their choice of words are often the same. That’s why in the instances when there’s a clear difference, they stick out like a sore thumb.

Let me give a few examples of what’s called a synopsis. Here’s for example the story of the paralytic (Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26) and the feeding of the five thousand (Matthew 14:15-21; Mark 6:35-44; Luke 9:12-17). The interesting thing in both these pericopes is how all three gospels eventually agree - Matthew, Mark and Luke each start off differently but near the end of the pericope all three gospels begin to use pretty much the same words.

Here’s another two: the baptism of Jesus and the calming of the sea. You would notice that in the baptism narrative, Matthew inserts unique material of his own into the basic narrative, which as I mentioned, given how generally similar all three accounts are, sticks out prominently. In this case, I would point to the differences (usually subtle ones) in the accounts: for example, Matthew’s “little faith” vs. Mark’s “no faith.”

One might still argue for literary independence by citing the idea of divine inspiration, but at the same time, it requires thinking that the nature of that inspiration was such that all three evangelists produced nearly-identical accounts, which are very similar (down to the choice of words) but at the same time, different. It’s, in a way, almost related to the so-called ‘Mechanical Inspiration’ theory: that the Holy Spirit dictated to the authors every word that needed to be inserted in their works as if He was using them as His puppets.

If you’ll ask me, the ‘dictation’ theory is no better than the idea of the evangelists ‘cut-and-pasting’ (which I should point out is really an over-generalization - no one believes Matthew or Luke or Mark simply ‘cut-and-pasted’), because it kind of robs the evangelists of their personalities. If they’re not machines who just cut-and-pasted material, they’re just machines who churned out what was dictated to them.
 
Matthew and John were both apostles and eyewitnesses. With the help of the Holy Spirit–is there any reason why they couldn’t be authors?

Is there any chance that Mark or Luke personally knew Jesus while he was alive on planet Earth?

I’ve always heard that Mark got most of his gospel from Peter and Luke got most of his gospel from Paul. Why couldn’t this have been possible?
There is no definitive argument against what you say.

The only caveat I would mention is that Luke writes that the material was 'handed down to him by those that experienced it from the beginning '. Possibly this could refer to only certain material in his Gospel and Luke could have known Jesus although I’m not sure of such claims being made.

Because Luke implicitly mentions that he travelled with Paul on some of his journies in Acts, but doesn’t write himself into the Gospel, it probably means he wasn’t a part of the written events of Jesus’ life.

Moreover, the fact that he is not present in the scenes of his version of the Gospel gives credibility to his implicit self description of him being one of Paul’s fellow travellers.
 
I often hear the complaint that the synoptics rely on each other because many of their accounts sound the same.

Let me ask this: How similar would news accounts from CBS, CNN, and ABC be on any particular news story?

Wouldn’t they be much the same? You wouldn’t say that they were relying on each other when covering a news event–why say that the different gospel writers are relying on each other when they cover an event in Jesus’ life?

Saying that the synoptics are all the same and John is completely different would be like saying that all the TV news networks are generally the same and that Fox News is different! Now who would say that those News organizations were relying on each other? Now they of course have knowledge of one another but they’re not copying and pasting! They probably do take each other’s accounts into mind as they try to give their own accounts.

Maybe that analogy isn’t a good one but maybe you can see what I mean. I guess what I’m really saying is the REAL answer is ambiguous and complex.

Now of course the writers were not dictation machines but I believe that they prayed to the Holy Spirit while they were writing their gospels. They might have wrote and rewrote their accounts many times over.

And if Mark and Luke weren’t there when the events in Jesus’ life took place I’m sure that they would have consulted with disciples who were there such as John or Matthew or Peter or maybe Paul–if not them then they would have spoken to other christians. They probably would have spoken to Mary about the Infancy accounts for NONE of the disciples were there when those events took place but they didn’t just make things up! And I do think that the Holy Spirit helped them.

The reason the accounts would sound pretty much the same is that there were a limited number of people who witnessed the events.

Paul states that 500 people witnessed Jesus after his resurrection. Now we don’t have 500 different eyewitness gospels–but those 500 people would have attended Masses that were led by the apostles. They relied on the apostles as the primary authority as to what was true about Jesus and what wasn’t.

Everything about Jesus wasn’t in the gospels–we don’t know his hair color or favorite foods or if he had pets when He was young. Some people might have known those things but what was written in the gospels was what was needed for our salvation.

That’s where the guidance of the Holy Spirit comes in. I think that details such as these were or could have been edited out. In other words the gospel writers started with large amounts of material about Jesus from many different witnesses and condensed them down after praying to the Holy Spirit and also using their own mental abilities.

They weren’t dictation machines!

But they weren’t totally detached non witnesses of everything who got the events not second hand from people like Paul and Peter and John and Matthew–but 4th or 5th hand like the secularists and “historical criticism” crowd to the nth degree people believe–you know the type–those who would say that John wasn’t written by John but from Johanine communities years after his death.

You can tell the secularists–they always think that the disciples had no brains and that OTHER people wrote the gospels. The Catholic Church didn’t teach that for over 1900 years but that is what many secularist theologians think today.

I think the bible is true and I think some of the “Q” believers and the people that believe that the gospel writers had to get most of their material from either this gospel or that gospel are basically the same kind of people who in their heart of hearts don’t believe the miracles of Jesus and don’t believe in the resurrection–I’m not saying that all are like that but I do believe that some or like that.

In other words what passes for present day scholarly opinion on the sources of the gospels would not agree with the Pontifical Biblical Commission of the early 1900s.

I agree with the Pontifical Biblical Commission of the early 1900s. Is that OK for a Catholic? Would they be wrong or uninformed for believing that way?
 
Let me use a different analogy.

Let’s say that you’re a teacher in a school. All the students in class are ordered to write a long essay on a particular subject. When the time to grade the essays comes, you’ll notice at the essays of at least three students standing out in particular. Everyone is ordered to write about the same subject, but these three students go further: large portions (let’s say 80%) of their essays are very similar to each other, at times even exactly similar, word-for-word. Even in parts where they (try to) diverge from each other, you’ll notice that going further down that they invariably end up reverting into agreement. You might say that it’s all a chance, that it just so happened that the students wrote down (almost) exactly the same paragraph, the same sentence, the same word. But on the other hand, it’s more easier to imagine that the three students in question made use of each other’s essays. Of course they might try to vary their works by using a different word here or rearranging sentences there, but the high degree of similarity between the three gives them away.

I’ll also use myself as a second analogy. In Japan, we have these ‘workbooks’ which at times we were supposed to do in lieu of an assignment. Because it was up to the student to check if his/her answer is right or wrong (the teacher just grades it), an answer booklet is usually provided with said workbook. Now to be honest I’m terrible at math - I never really liked the subject - and I had a bit of a naughty streak (which I wouldn’t show in decent company such as here :D), so back in middle and high school (just three to seven years ago) what me and my friends did was that we usually didn’t answer the workbook using our heads. We would often get told to do a certain number of pages, but whenever we didn’t know/forgot how to solve it, what did we do? We just copied the answers from the workbook to get it over with. I took it up a notch: as part of an (unsuccessful, apparently) attempt to disguise the fact that I was copying the workbook, I would get an answer wrong on purpose here or do a different solution (if I knew an alternative) or skip a page - on the pretext of forgetting how the thing worked - there. But even then, I found out that trying to think of ‘wrong’ answers is tiring, so I invariably end up looking at the answer book again. Of course there would be good/smart students who answered their workbook correctly without ever looking at the answer sheet, but in my particular case, the exact similarities between the answers in my workbook and those in my answer sheet can be explained with the fact that I was de facto cheating by copying the answer. 😊

Of course, these aren’t perfect analogies (particularly the second one involving me), but those who posit literary interdependence - the Q theory, the Griesbach-Farmer theory, the Farrer-Goulder theory, really most solutions to the Synoptic Problem nowadays take literary interdependence for granted; it’s not just ‘Q people’ who do so - explain things in this way. All these theories posit that there was one gospel which the other two gospels used as their source. In Griesbach’s model, Matthew’s gospel was made use of by Luke; Mark in turn made use of Luke and Matthew. In the Q hypothesis, Mark’s gospel plus the hypothetical Q (Logienquelle) was made use of by Matthew and Luke independently of each other. In Farrer’s scenario, Mark’s gospel was made use of by Matthew; Luke then used both Matthew and Mark.
 
If I had to choose among those alternatives I would say that Matthew was indeed written first–Mark was written next–mainly with information from Peter but Mark also having knowledge of Matthew’s gospel and Luke written with knowledge of Matthew and Mark’s gospel and with information given by Paul and that John was written last when John was an old man with John trying to supply different information than what was in the other three.

What would you call that scenario?

I’ve heard it said that Luke was probably written second but wasn’t published second–that Mark which was basically written accounts of Peter’s remembrances through his sermons was written after Luke but published BEFORE Luke because it had the backing of St. Peter and that Luke was written before but held back and published after Mark after Peter died and before Paul died–in other words Luke was published after Mark because Paul was showing deference to St. Peter.

What I do not in any form agree with is that the actual people–Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not actually write the gospels attributed to them! That’s modernism that I can’t stomach.

What percentage of Catholic theologians at Catholic seminaries would support Matthew being first of all the gospels with no Q involved?
 
If I had to choose among those alternatives I would say that Matthew was indeed written first–Mark was written next–mainly with information from Peter but Mark also having knowledge of Matthew’s gospel and Luke written with knowledge of Matthew and Mark’s gospel and with information given by Paul and that John was written last when John was an old man with John trying to supply different information than what was in the other three.

What would you call that scenario?
That’s the Augustinian theory in a nutshell really.
What percentage of Catholic theologians at Catholic seminaries would support Matthew being first of all the gospels with no Q involved?
Short of taking a poll across seminaries worldwide we have no way of knowing. I’ll bet though that there aren’t too many: most people simply repeat what their professors or their textbooks tell them.
 
The Pontifical biblical Commission in 1911 said that Matthew was written first.

What teaching authority did the Pontifical Biblical commission have at that time?

If you were a Catholic in 1911 how much religious assent should you have given to the Pontifical Biblical Commission’s pronouncement that Matthew was written first?

The Pontifical Biblical Commission’s structure was changed in 1971 and according to some it does not carry the same level of teaching authority that earlier Pontifical biblical Commission’s had. Is that true or not?

Can the views of the Pontifical biblical Commission in 1911 be safely ignored by Catholics alive today?

If earlier pronouncements of the Pontifical Biblical Commission were not infallible–how much weight did they carry and how much weight do they carry now?

I guess what I’m really asking is what should a current day Catholic do when present day biblical scholars say that Matthew wasn’t written first yet the Church Fathers and Catholic teaching up to at least the Pontifical Biblical Commission of 1911 said that Matthew was written first?

Which side should a Catholic believe? Is a Catholic free to believe either side? Does current day scholarship trump all the Catholic scholarship up through 1911?

I know a lot of times the Church is silent on such things…sometimes I wish they would just come out and definitively say one way or the other. I would have no problem siding with the modern scholars if the Catholic church said they were right.

It is uncomfortable to not side with them and be branded as ignorant–if I am indeed ignorant–were all the Church Fathers and the Pontifical Biblical Commission also ignorant?
 
That’s the Augustinian theory in a nutshell really.

Short of taking a poll across seminaries worldwide we have no way of knowing. I’ll bet though that there aren’t too many: most people simply repeat what their professors or their textbooks tell them.
How true, and how un-intellectual.
I guess what I’m really asking is what should a current day Catholic do when present day biblical scholars say that Matthew wasn’t written first yet the Church Fathers and Catholic teaching up to at least the Pontifical Biblical Commission of 1911 said that Matthew was written first?
I’d ask for proof of what they claim. If they say something like …"…most scholars agree…" it usually means they don’t know why they think that way.

If they give you evidence for what they think (there is no proof) then it makes sense to assess it carefully and investigate the counter claims.

If honestly in doubt, stick with the church.
 
The Pontifical biblical Commission in 1911 said that Matthew was written first.

What teaching authority did the Pontifical Biblical commission have at that time?

If you were a Catholic in 1911 how much religious assent should you have given to the Pontifical Biblical Commission’s pronouncement that Matthew was written first?

The Pontifical Biblical Commission’s structure was changed in 1971 and according to some it does not carry the same level of teaching authority that earlier Pontifical biblical Commission’s had. Is that true or not?

Can the views of the Pontifical biblical Commission in 1911 be safely ignored by Catholics alive today?

If earlier pronouncements of the Pontifical Biblical Commission were not infallible–how much weight did they carry and how much weight do they carry now?

I guess what I’m really asking is what should a current day Catholic do when present day biblical scholars say that Matthew wasn’t written first yet the Church Fathers and Catholic teaching up to at least the Pontifical Biblical Commission of 1911 said that Matthew was written first?

Which side should a Catholic believe? Is a Catholic free to believe either side? Does current day scholarship trump all the Catholic scholarship up through 1911?

I know a lot of times the Church is silent on such things…sometimes I wish they would just come out and definitively say one way or the other. I would have no problem siding with the modern scholars if the Catholic church said they were right.

It is uncomfortable to not side with them and be branded as ignorant–if I am indeed ignorant–were all the Church Fathers and the Pontifical Biblical Commission also ignorant?
Some people practically invoke later the 1943 encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu or Dei Verbum (1965), or even a clarification made by the secretary of the PBC made in 1955 to the effect that Catholic scholars had “complete freedom” in regard to the decrees of 1905-1915, except where they touched on faith and morals, or the 1964 Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels (also by the PBC), but to put it briefly, this interpretation is itself controversial. In particular, one issue revolves around the question of just how legitimate the 1955 ‘clarification’ was (I’m quoting it below):

Inasmuch as it is a collection of documents which show how Sacred Scripture has always been the primary source and foundation of the truths of Catholic faith and of their progress and development, the Enchiridion renders great service first of all to the history of dogmas. It reflects clearly, moreover, the fierce battle that the Church at all times has had to fight, though with varying degrees of intensity, to maintain the truth and purity of the Word of God. Especially in this respect the decrees of the Pontifical Biblical Commission have great significance. However, since these decrees propose views which are neither immediately nor mediately connected with truths of faith and morals, it goes without saying that scholars may pursue their research with complete freedom and may utilize the results of that research, provided that always they defer to the supreme teaching authority of the Church.

Today we can hardly picture to ourselves the position of Catholic scholars at the turn of the century, or the dangers that threatened Catholic teaching on Scripture and its inspiration on the part of liberal and rationalistic criticism, which like a torrent tried to sweep away the sacred barriers of tradition. At present the battle is considerably less fierce; not a few controversies have been peacefully settled and many problems emerge in an entirely new light, so that it is easy enough for us to smile at the narrowness and constraint which prevailed fifty years ago.

In context, Providentissimus Deus (1893), the PBC decrees from the period between 1907 and 1914, and the papal criticisms against Modernism were issued at a time when higher criticism was associated with and used by ‘liberals’, who more often than not used them as vehicles to attack traditional Christianity (the 19th-20th century was basically a chaotic period in terms of NT studies - not least because (German) Protestants, Deists, and atheists - some of whom had an axe to grind against Christianity - dominated the scene). Not coincidentally, it was around that same time that the ‘mythicist’ position (those who argued that Jesus as an historical figure did not really exist) was revived.
 
After reading more about the issues involved I guess I am in the minority. The Augustinian hypothesis doesn’t seem to be realistic–that is total independence of all the gospel authors. On the other hand the two source hypothesis and some of its variants that include “Q” I believe are hard to square with the church’s teachings regarding the historicity of the gospels.

Some form of the two gospel hypothesis as championed by Farmer seems to be able to not be in contradiction to the church’s tradition and teaching while also allowing for interplay among the gospel writers.

I believe in the priority of Matthew. When you read it some of the passages definitely refer to the future destruction of the temple in Jerusalem–I think that it had to be written before that happened and the possibility advanced by some who favor that Mark was written first and that Matthew might have been written as late as 85AD just doesn’t seem to make sense to me.

It also makes sense to me that Luke was written next but was “Held” and not published because Paul was deferring to Peter.

I do believe that Mark used in addition to Peter’s sermons also parts of the unpublished Luke and the published Matthew–this explains the relationship between the three synoptic gospels and why they many times sound the same.

The two gospel theory appeals to me because it leaves intact that Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew–John was written by the apostle John–and that Mark relied on Peter and Luke who relied on Paul. This bolsters the historicity of the gospels–they aren’t 4th or 5th hand accounts in this way and while they know of each other they also aren’t copiers and pasters by people removed from the original gospel writers.

I don’t know why some Catholic scholars in the early 1900s fell in love with the Protestants favoring Markan priority.

And I think that modern Catholic scholars who today do this have stretched any academic freedom granted by Divino Afflante Spiritu or Dei Verbum past the breaking point where you don’t have the historical apostles writing historical gospels.

The gospels didn’t get canonized or used in the liturgy of the very early ancient church if the people of that time did not indeed think that the actual Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote them!

The two gospel hypothesis allows for the interplay of the gospel writers without destroying the fact that the actual Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote them.

I’m for something along its lines. Orchard was for the two gospel hypothesis and he wasn’t a dummy. You can be for it without being a dummy.

I don’t denigrate the people who are for Mark coming first–I just don’t know how you can be for that against the 1900 year tradition of Catholic teaching.
 
After reading more about the issues involved I guess I am in the minority. The Augustinian hypothesis doesn’t seem to be realistic–that is total independence of all the gospel authors.
That’s pretty much why the modern variants of the Augustinian hypothesis themselves posit literary dependence. In one scenario, you have Matthew writing first, Mark using Matthew, and then Luke used both Mark and Matthew. (This is of course slightly different from St. Augustine’s original scenario: where Mark is a condensed version of Matthew, but whether Luke used those two gospels is a little unclear.) We can call the idea that the evangelists relied upon each other’s works the utilization hypothesis.

As I mentioned, the alternative to the utilization hypothesis/literary dependence to explain the partial agreements between the synoptics is really literary independence, at least in the sense that the evangelists did not use each other’s gospels. But even then, discounting the idea of the evangelists serendipitously happening to use the exact same structures and same words independently on their own, the alternative is that they all depended on a common source. There’s three possible avenues, all first proposed during the 18th-19th century:

(1) The proto-gospel theory. As you might know, the 2nd-century Church Father Papias wrote that “Matthew compiled/composed the sayings (logia) [of Jesus] in the Hebrew dialect, and each one interpreted it as he could,” which is basically our earliest surviving testimony linking Matthew with a gospel of sorts. In fact, later Fathers, based on Papias, thought that there was an earlier version of Matthew’s gospel written in ‘Hebrew’ (Aramaic?), which some of them dubbed ‘the Gospel of the Hebrews’ - with our canonical Greek Matthew being a deritative of said Hebrew gospel. To sum, some scholars basically read Papias as evidence that there was a now-lost ‘proto-gospel’ written before our canonical gospels. Perhaps all three evangelists even made use of this proto-gospel when they composed their own gospels, which would explain the similarities between them. Now this is basically where Q comes from: Q’s full name in German is logienquellelogia source’, a nod to Papias’ testimony of a collection of logia of Jesus in ‘Hebrew’ (or a remnant of this idea). The two-source hypothesis is essentially the proto-gospel theory combined with Markan priority.

(2) The fragment hypothesis. This is pretty similar to the proto-gospel theory, only instead of a proper document, you have different accounts, long and short, circulating about certain episodes in Jesus’ life which the evangelists pieced and connected together to make a proper narrative. This theory would explain why the gospels are so episodic (composed of stand-alone pericopes) in nature.

(3) The tradition hypothesis. Instead of a written document, this theory posits that the whole gospel tradition was first developed and passed down orally, viva voce, by the early Christians: the evangelists translated and transcribed the same oral tradition, which explains the similarities between them. This theory in its original form mainly draws a distinction between Hebrew culture characterized by the oral transmission of small texts with the Greco-Roman cultures of predominantly written large-scale literature.
On the other hand the two source hypothesis and some of its variants that include “Q” I believe are hard to square with the church’s teachings regarding the historicity of the gospels.
You know what’s ironic? Farmer once claimed that Griesbach’s theory was ditched in favor of the two-source hypothesis because it was felt the two-source hypothesis supported the historicity of the gospels more than Griesbach’s did. To explain the mechanics: the liberal Tübingen school of scholars was notorious for dating the gospels very late, even by modern standards (2nd century). Now during the 18th century, there was a growing consensus that Matthew was written after the period of the eyewitnesses; so assuming that Matthew was written first and that the other gospels were based on it was felt to make the historicity of the gospels suspect. According to Farmer, Griesbach was adopted by the prominent members of the Tübingen school (such as David Strauss and his teacher Ferdinand Christian Baur) to develop their theories which resulted in radical skepticism about the gospels’ historical reliability. This to Farmer explains why Griesbach dropped out of the scene when the Tübingen school collapsed: it was (unjustly) connected by critics with the hyper-skepticism of the Tübingen school and was summarily dismissed without a fair hearing. Now the reason why Markan priority and the two-source hypothesis came to the fore, Farmer says, was because it satisfied a theological need: over against the Matthean priority proposed by Griesbach’s theory championed by the Tübingen school, those who wished to lay claim to the reliability of the gospels championed Mark (because we all know Matthew was late :rolleyes:) and Q instead.

If it might interest you, there are even theories which say that Luke wrote first.
 
Matthew and John were both apostles and eyewitnesses. With the help of the Holy Spirit–is there any reason why they couldn’t be authors?
Dr. Bart Ehrman gives many different scenarios on the literary conditions existing in the time of Jesus death and for several centuries following. In the first place, disciple Matthew was a tax collector, and disciple John was a fisherman, neither of whom could have been educated to the extent that they were able write elegant Gospels. Thus any one of a number of people named Matthew and John could have written their Gospels, since these names were common in those days, and surnames were not used. Forgeries were rampant. So were people who wanted their ideas to be read and thus assigned the names of Matthew and John to their writings.
Is there any chance that Mark or Luke personally knew Jesus while he was alive on planet Earth?
Yes, there is a chance. But did these same Mark and Luke write their Gospels? Since none of the Gospels were supposed to have been written from eye witness written records, they amount to recollections of events happening several decades prior to being written down and were undoubtedly based on stories transmitted orally. In other words, they are based on hearsay. Most of the Gospels were written after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in year 70. Their view was slanted toward the coming end of the world. Hence the Book of Revelation was included in the New Testament.
I’ve always heard that Mark got most of his gospel from Peter and Luke got most of his gospel from Paul. Why couldn’t this have been possible?
I don’t know who got what from whom–what I object to is the view that the gospel writers were a bunch of cut and paster copiers and that the Holy Spirit didn’t have anything to do with their accounts. Who believes that?
Biblical scholars, that’s who. The leading divinity schools teach that to their students. But their preaching classes do not encourage transmitting that to their parishioners.
I would think that all the gospel writers used all their personal knowledge as eyewitnesses–or if they weren’t eyewitnesses they relied on MANY other christians and made sure what they were writing was true when they gave their accounts.
I believe as they were writing that they prayed to the Holy Spirit for help and that He helped them!
Actually they were on a mission to spread the Christian message. Whatever image they thought would embellish the story of Jesus is what would have been put into their Gospels.

The Gospels were never meant to be a historical account of Jesus. That could be very dry. Why not embellish the Jesus message with all sorts of mysterious happenings that would get people’s attention. This is an excellent sales technique.
They weren’t dictation machines but they were TRUE authors but don’t believe for one minute that they weren’t helped by the Holy Spirit.
Does what I’m saying make any sense? It is my opinion that Matthew was written before the destruction of the temple and that Mark and Luke were written before Peter and Paul died and that John was written last.
Since St. Paul and St. Peter and St. Mark all died just before the Romans destroyed the Temple in the year 70, the Gospels of St. Matthew and St. Luke are generally considered to have been written after the year 70. The Gospel of St. John was probably written about 20 years after fall of the Temple.
 
I will never believe that the disciples were illiterate and incapable of writing down their eyewitness accounts.

A real Matthew wrote what he saw as an eye witness–same for John.

Mark was mostly from Peter and Luke was mostly from Paul–Peter was also an eyewitness and Paul knew the disciples as well as many other christians who were eyewitnesses.

IF the gospels had not been accepted as coming FROM eyewitnesses and apostles people would not have believed them–PLUS non christians would have had a field day and would have ridiculed their authenticity.

I can see why Protestants would not like Matthew to come first–they would hate the fact the “the keys” would have been part of christian teaching since the very beginning.

I can see where it would make sense that the first three would sound much the same because Oral preaching had taken place for years before the gospel accounts were written. Orally saying events in Jesus’ life over and over would mean that the disciples even as they told the stories in written form would invariably sound like their very preaching over and over of the events in Jesus’ life.

I will tell you this: I don’t believe anyone who doesn’t believe that Jesus performed miracles–walked upon the water–raised people from the dead–and arose from the dead.

If you can’t believe that Jesus who is God did these things–why should I entertain those theories as being true?

What also bothers me is every year with every new translation the Bible keeps getting smaller and smaller. Something is wrong with that picture!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top