Missionaries to muslims

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Like what Muslim country? Do Muslim countries determine Islamic Law? The answer is that they don’t. What matters to your question is according Islamic Law can non-Muslims practice their religion freely under Muslim rule. The answer is yes–they are not to be prevented from their worship, their houses of worship are to be maintained, and they are to be allowed to fully implement their own law.
I don’t know what Isalmic utopia you are talking about. You’ve given your fatwa, but we live under fatwas with the weigh of Islamic history behind them.
My religious practices shouldn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights, first of all. Something else needs to be resolved if that is the case. Moreover, Muslim are supposed to respect the law of the land, even if they do not agree with it. Rebellion is discouraged. If it is bad for them, restricting their freedoms, then they should leave and go somewhere else.
Izzetbegovich, a Muslim cleric, wrote that it is the duty of every Muslim in a non-muslim country to implement Islamic law. And there are plenty doing just that.
 
I am not certain where you learned your history, but you should get a refund.

Here is a list of all the Emperors of the Roman Empire. The Western Roman Empire fell in 476. All emperors after that were in Constantinople, the Eastern Roman Empire. There was no emperor in Rome “watching the back” of Christians against Moslems.

List of Roman Emperors.
The University of Chicago. Full Scholarship, so nothing to refund.

Your list has a link for continuation under “Byzantine Emperors.” Since historically there is no such thing-their title remained “Emperor of the Romans,” I can see the confusion. (I am also confused by the “Meet Single Arabs Here,” although I am a single Arab). No, there was no Roman emperor in Old Rome, although the pope of Rome had crowned Frederick III there (the last time that happened) with the title Holy Roman Emperor. and very little help against the Muslims.
 
Sister Amy;3994701 [/QUOTE said:
Originally posted by Booklover

As for bigotry and hatred as you claim, there’s no one more bigoted and filled with hatred than Muslims.
Do you base this on a Pew poll or something of the sort? lol

See here.

The answer is Islam. **The life manual of Islam, the Quran, is a document of exclusion, hatred and violence that shapes the Muslims’ thinking and behaving. **This stone-age document is optimally suited for people of stunted development. People who prefer to follow than to think for themselves, to hate than to love, and to seek death rather than to celebrate life. Amil Imani

Vickie
 
Sister Amy;3994701 [/QUOTE said:
Originally posted by Booklover

From the time of his birth, a Muslim is indoctrinated to believe that Muslims are the best of creation and the unbelievers the worst and unclean to boot.
Really? Fascinating. More research, no doubt.

See here.

"A Muslim is fed since his birth, to the point of bursting, that he’s a member of the most privileged and best people of all creation ever produced by Allah. "Koran 3:110 Ye are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind”. Coupled with being injected (also to the point of bursting) with the inferiority of all other people especially Christians and Jews the sons of apes and pigs.

For more than 14 centuries, the failing, backward and for the majority completely bankrupted (literally on every level) Islamic societies and (gangsters) rulers had nothing to offer their populations other than misery and desperation with no hope for a better life (in this world). To compensate for their shortcomings, they drilled in the Muslim brain that belief of superiority, and filled him with Islam 24/7/365 to feed his (false) pride short of feeding his stomach and convinced him that if Allah allowed Christian, Jews and Westerners to prosper it’s only so he can plunder them “ Koran 33:27 And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods (money), and of a land which ye had not frequented (Before" Ibn Miser

and

The Best of Peoples In Allah’s Mind

So right off the pap, allah commanded muslims to treat others as inferiors, filth, unclean Kafers, and to show them harshness. That’s what they did to all the Christian countries they conquered (but defensively, remember, islam only defends itself). Look at the condition of the Christian natives (you can even see it on videos that the Egyptian government don’t want you to see, here), and you’ll agree with me that muslims are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong.

The allah of islam commanded muslims to be the best deceivers, Taqquiya 3:28, and they are.

The allah of islam commanded muslims to be killers, “to slaughter the unbelievers wherever you find them.” And to kill and be killed. They are the best in that, with no competition.

The allah of islam commanded his followers to curse in every prayer every non muslim, esspecially Christians and Jews, and they are the most devout, unmatched and best in that regard" Ibn Miser.

Vickie
 
This post is for jen fla Post #130.

Please remember that Islam teaches the safety of every one. If the house of a christian is on fire, it is the duty of the Muslims to help put out the fire. If any one (may be a mob) is trying to burn the house of a christian or a Jew, it is the duty of the muslims to attempt to stop them at all cost.

It is the duty of the Muslims to protect the places of worship pf any and every faith. There is a verse of the Quran about that.

If any Muslim will disagree with me about what I have written above then it is not for me to agree to him. That is because I am telling the truth about Islam. Islam teaches complete love and no hatred.
show me where it says this, because i am pretty certain fire fighting services only comes after the Jews or Christians have been humiliated and payed a tax.

i am going to do more research on hadiths. planten, you keep saying to stop giving hadiths when trying to discuss what islam teaches. you are the ONLY muslim i have ever heard say this, so i don’t think you are correct. there has been some question as to which hadith are considered authentic, but for sunnis the bukhari and muslim are considered authentic. why do you keep denying that?

is it because you don’t like what they teach? is it because you were taught they are not important or do you think it’s OK to brush them under the carpet in order to keep up the facade that this is a peaceful religion?

i gave you hadith showing the Jews are to be left alone AFTER they have been conquered. nice! you say to ignore hadith.

then i give you passage from quran from the chapter (the table spread). here are the three translations:

**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.**

you said this pertained to time of war. i read the entire chapter so as to not take anything out of context and in no way does this appear for the time of war. these are his ETERNAL teachings which is why islamic rule follows these teachings today.

from the same chapter:

005.038
YUSUFALI:
As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.**

PICKTHAL: As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

SHAKIR: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.**

so mohammeds view of merciful God is that when man cuts off a thief’s hand, God is exalted in power.

let me ask you a serious question. if your teenage son or daughter started to hang around a new group of friends and in a moment of weakness (trying hard to fit in and be popular) went out and stole a video game… as a parent do you think it would be just to cut of his or her hands?

we both agree that stealing is wrong, yet is there not a better, higher, more loving way in which we can punish our children, rather than literally cutting off a hand?

saudi arabia right now is the closest central authority islam has. their scholars take this passage literally and they by islamic law enforce it. so in this case you cannot say that mohammed’s teachings are for a certain time frame only.

also the quran is supposed to be clear enough for everyone to read. we know that the Bible is not so easy to read, so we have the Church to look for in guidance. what you have is chaos.
 
****Like what Muslim country? Do Muslim countries determine Islamic Law? The answer is that they don’t. ****What matters to your question is according Islamic Law can non-Muslims practice their religion freely under Muslim rule. The answer is yes–they are not to be prevented from their worship, their houses of worship are to be maintained, and they are to be allowed to fully implement their own law.
My religious practices shouldn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights, first of all. Something else needs to be resolved if that is the case. Moreover, Muslim are supposed to respect the law of the land, even if they do not agree with it. Rebellion is discouraged. If it is bad for them, restricting their freedoms, then they should leave and go somewhere else.

I don’t really think so. Jesus taught forgiveness, Muhammad taught forgiveness. But life is more than just spirituality and religion. Jesus never set guidelines for rulers, for example. He never acted as a judge. Islam’s teachings aren’t contradictory, they just deal with all spheres of life while Jesus’s are more limited in that regard.

sister amy, please answer this as honestly as you can?

how did you come to this false conclusion? it is so not true that i am baffled as to how you arrived at the exact opposite conclusion. Jews and Christians can NOT publicly worship in saudi arabia. no Churches or synagogues can be built!

As Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state, all law is based on the Holy Quran. It is called Sharia law and governs both criminal and civil cases.
Code:
The Quran itself is considered the constitution of the country and provides ethical values and guidance. 

Executive and legislative authorities are exercised by the King and the Council of Ministers within the framework of Islamic law. The Kingdom's ministries and all other government agencies are ultimately responsible to the King.
Islam is the faith on which The Kingdom is founded. To understand the law, history, political, economic and social development of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, it is necessary to realize that Islam, which permeates every aspect of a Muslim’s life, also permeates every aspect of the Saudi Arabian state including the law.

Underlying the judicial structure are the four schools of thought in Islamic law. They are: the Hanbali school; the Shafii school; the Hanafi school; and the Maliki.

Before the unification of the Saudi judicial system, the courts, as well as individual judges, used to derive their legal judgments from these various schools. In the Western Region, for instance, there were two dominant schools of thought - the Hanafi, and the Shafii, whereas in the Central Region, the Hanbali school had been the only major source of legal guidance.

The Courts/Judiciary in the Kingdom now issue their rulings/judgments/decisions on the basis of what is stated in the Holy Quran and on the Sunna (practices/mode of life) of the Prophet, and is guided without being limited to the specific opinion of any one of the aforementioned schools of law."

from here:arab.net/saudi/sa_law.htm

from australia’s government. a warning adversery for those traveling to saudi arabia:
]Local Laws

When you are in Saudi Arabia, be aware that local laws and penalties, including ones that appear harsh by Australian standards, do apply to you. If you are arrested or jailed, the Australian Government will do what it can to help you but we can’t get you out of trouble or out of jail.

Information on what Australian consular officers can and cannot do to help Australians in trouble overseas is available from the Consular Services Charter.

Penalties for trafficking, possessing or using drugs are severe and include the death penalty.
**
Homosexual acts are illegal and penalties include the death penalty.**

Other offences punishable with the death penalty include murder, adultery, rape and abandoning religion (Islam).

Penalties for some criminal offences include corporal punishment and deportation. Theft-related offences may be punished with amputation, while offenders may be sentenced to lashes for other offences.

Preaching religions other than Islam may result in imprisonment and corporal punishment. The importation and use of alcohol, pork products, pornography (including images of scantily clad people, particularly women), religious books and materials (other than those reflecting orthodox Islam) is forbidden. Generally, individuals are able to bring one bible for private use.

Possession of alcohol may result in imprisonment and corporal punishment. Travellers have been detained on arrival in Saudi Arabia when police have detected the smell of alcohol on their breath.
**
Foreigners, particularly women, have reported incidents of assault after being approached by Muttawa (Religious Police).** If approached by Muttawa, you should remain sensitive to the Muttawa’s authority and seek to end the encounter as quickly as possible - if necessary, by leaving the area immediately.

Photography of official buildings, including government buildings, military installations, checkpoints, embassies and palaces is illegal and carries harsh penalties.

**Women are legally required to wear the abaya, **a long black coat that conceals their body shape, in all public places. The abaya is worn over loose-fitting, full-length clothing. While many local women wear a headscarf, foreign women are not generally required to follow suit. It is advisable, though, to carry a dark-coloured scarf in case you are confronted by the Muttawa.

Business travellers involved in a commercial dispute with a Saudi company or individual may be prevented from leaving the country until the dispute is resolved.

It is illegal for unmarried couples to live together. Hotels may refuse accommodation to couples unable to provide proof of marriage.

Some Australian criminal laws, such as those relating to money laundering, bribery of foreign public officials, terrorism and child sex tourism, apply to Australians overseas. Australians who commit these offences while overseas may be prosecuted in Australia.

Australian authorities are committed to combating sexual exploitation of children by Australians overseas. Australians may be prosecuted at home under Australian child sex tourism laws. These laws provide severe penalties of up to 17 years imprisonment for Australians who engage in sexual activity with children under 16 while outside of Australia.

you might find this interesting:

smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/advice/saudi_arabia
 
I don’t know what Isalmic utopia you are talking about. You’ve given your fatwa, but we live under fatwas with the weigh of Islamic history behind them.

Izzetbegovich, a Muslim cleric, wrote that it is the duty of every Muslim in a non-muslim country to implement Islamic law. And there are plenty doing just that.
Isa sahib, sis Amy is right as far as the actual Islamic law is concerned. If it is not being practiced in any Muslim country that is not the fault of Sis Amy. It may be your fault.

You are not listening to any truth. You are not supporting the truth. Instead you are opposing the moderate Muslims and taking side with the ignorant ones. Please do not judge Islam by what the Muslims are doing. We do not judge your governments by what the christians are doing, in Paris and else where.

Just see what is being given to you and try to accommodate the material. Islam is a completely peaceful religion. If you will have hatred against Islam (and the prophet) then you will have what you are having and facing in the so called Muslim countries. Please do not complain.
 
From jen fla post #136:

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
you said this pertained to time of war. i read the entire chapter so as to not take anything out of context and in no way does this appear for the time of war. these are his ETERNAL teachings which is why islamic rule follows these teachings today.
Please replace the word “Friends” by the word “Allies” or “Guardians”. Then read the verses. You will be satisfied. Friend is not a good translation o fthe Arabic word “Wali”. So now you understand that during the times of war, it is not advised to the Muslims to take the Jews and christians as Allies. They are the allies (supporters) of eath other. Look at the marvel and miracle of Quran. The above news is even true today. Would you deny that? The Jews and Christians are the allies of each other even today.

Please do not bring Hadith. It is only as good as your bible, a man made document describing the life of Jesus. It is nothing from God. Same is for the Hadith. That is a man made document, not very reliable and not 100% true. (same as bible).

If there is any Hadith which goes against the teachings of the Quran then it has to be rejected. That is a principle.

Please remember that there were wars all the time against Islam and the prophet of Islam (all the time). During early part in Madinah, he was being attacked by pagans of Arabia from Makkah. Later when they were defeated, the prophet was being attacked by the nearby satellites of the Christian Kingdom i.e. kaisar. There was no rest.

That continued until the death of the prophet in 632 A.D. Even at that time, there was danger of imminent attack from the Roman Empire. So please read some history too. Also read verses 5:33 and 5:34. I will be with you now onward. And I will try to reply to the rest of your post #136 later.
 
Please replace the word “Friends” by the word “Allies” or “Guardians”. Then read the verses. You will be satisfied. Friend is not a good translation o fthe Arabic word “Wali”. So now you understand that during the times of war, it is not advised to the Muslims to take the Jews and christians as Allies. They are the allies (supporters) of eath other. Look at the marvel and miracle of Quran. The above news is even true today. Would you deny that? The Jews and Christians are the allies of each other even today.

Please do not bring Hadith. It is only as good as your bible, a man made document describing the life of Jesus. It is nothing from God. Same is for the Hadith. That is a man made document, not very reliable and not 100% true. (same as bible).

If there is any Hadith which goes against the teachings of the Quran then it has to be rejected. That is a principle.

Please remember that there were wars all the time against Islam and the prophet of Islam (all the time). During early part in Madinah, he was being attacked by pagans of Arabia from Makkah. Later when they were defeated, the prophet was being attacked by the nearby satellites of the Christian Kingdom i.e. kaisar. There was no rest.

That continued until the death of the prophet in 632 A.D. Even at that time, there was danger of imminent attack from the Roman Empire. So please read some history too. Also read verses 5:33 and 5:34. I will be with you now onward.
Wait, are you saying that the Qur’an does teach that in times of war, Christians and Jews cannot be trusted to help Muslims?
 
Please replace the word “Friends” by the word “Allies” or “Guardians”. Then read the verses. You will be satisfied. Friend is not a good translation o fthe Arabic word “Wali”. So now you understand that during the times of war, it is not advised to the Muslims to take the Jews and christians as Allies. They are the allies (supporters) of eath other. Look at the marvel and miracle of Quran. The above news is even true today. Would you deny that? The Jews and Christians are the allies of each other even today.

no if i replace the word friend then mohammed is being redundant. let’s do what you suggest:

**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends “Allies” or “Guardians” **and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. “Allies” or “Guardians” They are friends “Allies” or “Guardians” one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends “Allies” or “Guardians” is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends;“Allies” or “Guardians” they are friends “Allies” or “Guardians” of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

nope it still doesn’t work. please show me as to how this in any way relates to times of war as i have read the entire chapter and can not see that.
planten;3999416:
Please do not bring Hadith. It is only as good as your bible, a man made document describing the life of Jesus. It is nothing from God. Same is for the Hadith. That is a man made document, not very reliable and not 100% true. (same as bible).

If there is any Hadith which goes against the teachings of the Quran then it has to be rejected. That is a principle.
planten, you either accept ALL of the holy Bible as the word of God or you can say it is man made. you cannot have it both ways. convincing you that the Jews and Christians did actually receive the truth from God is for another thread. however for you to say the hadiths are man made… well i am stunned! we are in agreement! 🙂 i get that some are considered non-authentic, but when the vast majority of muslim scholars (are you a muslim scholar?) say that authentic hadiths are part of mohammed’s teachings then you have to back up your own personal opinion. even sister amy admitted that as muslims you are not allowed to give your own personal interpretations, but to listen to the scholars.

mohammed says those that leave their faith are to be punished in the quran. you will say that is true. now when i show you an authentic hadith where mo expands on his statement (not contradict… although he does seem to do that too) by saying that the punishment is death, then all of a sudden you say don’t listen to hadith! why? he is not contradicting what he said in quran just getting down to specifics. then i show you how saudi arabia and iran both follow this hadith to implement sharia law and you say they are wrong.

please don’t make me sort through all your comments to show that you too post from hadith when it suits you.
Please remember that there were wars all the time against Islam and the prophet of Islam (all the time). During early part in Madinah, he was being attacked by pagans of Arabia from Makkah. Later when they were defeated, the prophet was being attacked by the nearby satellites of the Christian Kingdom i.e. kaisar. There was no rest.

That continued until the death of the prophet in 632 A.D. Even at that time, there was danger of imminent attack from the Roman Empire. So please read some history too. Also read verses 5:33 and 5:34. I will be with you now onward. And I will try to reply to the rest of your post #136 later.
please show me as to how this in any way relates to times of war as i have read the entire chapter and can not see that.

also you never answered my question regarding what m taught in the quran about chopping off your hands for theft.
 
Isa sahib, sis Amy is right as far as the actual Islamic law is concerned. If it is not being practiced in any Muslim country that is not the fault of Sis Amy. It may be your fault.
How could this logically be the case? I do not agree that it is in any way Sister Amy’s fault that Islamic law is practiced as it is in the Islamic countries (I don’t think this is what Isa Almisry was implying, but I can’t be sure), but I believe even less that it could be a NON-Muslim’s fault how Islamic countries are run! That makes absolutely no sense.
We do not judge your governments by what the christians are doing, in Paris and else where.
This is irrelevant, since the western countries do not operate under any religious law, so they do not generally claim to be “Christian” governments. Though some do acknowledge ‘Judeo-Christian principles’ as the foundation of their societies, many actually go out of their way to not codify Biblical commandments, in deference to the multi-religious character of their societies.
If you will have hatred against Islam (and the prophet) then you will have what you are having and facing in the so called Muslim countries. Please do not complain.
This also strikes me as odd. So the religious minorities of the Muslim countries have brought upon themselves their own fate? Even the mostly foreign workers of Saudi Arabia? Even the indigenous Christians of Egypt and Iraq, who predate the arrival of Islam to their countries by many centuries?
 
no if i replace the word friend then mohammed is being redundant. let’s do what you suggest:

**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends “Allies” or “Guardians” **and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Please read the verse as follows:
**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians as your “Allies” or “Guardians” **and protectors: They are but Allies and protectors to each other…
planten, you either accept ALL of the holy Bible as the word of God or you can say it is man made. you cannot have it both ways. convincing you that the Jews and Christians did actually receive the truth from God is for another thread.
 
How could this logically be the case? I do not agree that it is in any way Sister Amy’s fault that Islamic law is practiced as it is in the Islamic countries (I don’t think this is what Isa Almisry was implying, but I can’t be sure), but I believe even less that it could be a NON-Muslim’s fault how Islamic countries are run! That makes absolutely no sense.
It could be as the christians are accusing the basics of Islam against the clear explanations of the moderate Muslims. So the christians are giving support to the beliefs of the muslim bigots.
This is irrelevant, since the western countries do not operate under any religious law, so they do not generally claim to be “Christian” governments. Though some do acknowledge ‘Judeo-Christian principles’ as the foundation of their societies, many actually go out of their way to not codify Biblical commandments, in deference to the multi-religious character of their societies.
** It is same every where. What is going on in Paris and Hamburg is not the fault of the church then what is going on in the predominantly muslim countries is not the fault of Islam. There is relevance. You cannot absolve yourself from what is going on in Paris… Where are the padres? and Where are your teachers? Why they could not stop what was going on in your cities?**
This also strikes me as odd. So the religious minorities of the Muslim countries have brought upon themselves their own fate? Even the mostly foreign workers of Saudi Arabia? Even the indigenous Christians of Egypt and Iraq, who predate the arrival of Islam to their countries by many centuries?
**If not the religious minorities living in Muslim countries then the general teaching (onslought) of the church upon Islam is responsible. If the church practice the theory of love that is preached so much then there would have been no problem. But there is no love. That is only a slogan to mislead the poor muslims.

The church cannot even preach peacefully.**
 
How is the Qu’ran not man made? Muhammad was a man.

Didn’t he have a relation with a little girl when he was old?
 
It could be as the christians are accusing the basics of Islam against the clear explanations of the moderate Muslims. So the christians are giving support to the beliefs of the muslim bigots]
I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. What do you mean “accusing the basics of Islam”? If you mean disagreeing with Islam, well then, yes, and why shouldn’t they? They are, after all, not Muslims. Such disagreement may feed into the propaganda of the violent Islamist terrorists, but I fail to see an alternative. People who want to deprive you of your rights or kill you just because of your religion are not the sort of people who would respect such disagreements in the first place, and Christians will not just accept things that they believe are false any more than Muslims will, much less for the sake of placating bigots.
** It is same every where. What is going on in Paris and Hamburg is not the fault of the church then what is going on in the predominantly muslim countries is not the fault of Islam. There is relevance. You cannot absolve yourself from what is going on in Paris… Where are the padres? and Where are your teachers? Why they could not stop what was going on in your cities?**]
I do not know what you’re refering to regarding Paris and Hamburg, so I feel I very well can absolve myself from it since I have no idea what it is (I do not live in Europe). And I never said Muslims are at fault for what goes on in their societies; I am confident that the vast majority of everyday Muslims are the same as ordinary non-Muslims: Good people, trying to live their lives. My point is that since the governments of Islamic countries claim to govern in an Islamic manner, with the Qur’an as their explicit guide (as is found in some constitutions of the Muslim countries), then the actions of those governments can be assumed to be undertaken under the auspices of at least specific understanding of Islam and implementation of Islamic law. No such parallel situation exists in the Christian-majority countries.
**If not the religious minorities living in Muslim countries then the general teaching (onslought) of the church upon Islam is responsible. If the church practice the theory of love that is preached so much then there would have been no problem. But there is no love. That is only a slogan to mislead the poor muslims.
The church cannot even preach peacefully.**
I’m sorry you feel that way. I thoroughly disagree with you, but I respect your right to hold such an opinion. I have not seen much evidence of the “onslaught” of church against Islam (I have seen much evidence to the contrary, but this is not the thread for that), but I recognize that matters like these are often a matter of perspective. I for one do not see how these minority churches in the Muslim lands can even effectively mount an onslaught on anything, but then I don’t understand the idea of Muslim victimhood in Muslim-majority countries anyway.

As with many things, we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for engaging in discussion. Peace! (and I, an idividual Christian and not a church unto myself, really do mean it :))
 
Please read the verse as follows:
**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians as your “Allies” or “Guardians” **and protectors: They are but Allies and protectors to each other…

I take your advice for the replacement of words and read the verse again and again, but cannot see the crucial phrase “at the time of war” there. I still wonder why Muslims prefer using the word “friend” instead of “ally/guard” in the translation of that verse. Is it such a difficult thing for Muslims to listen to you for the accurate translation and correct their mistakes?

Interestingly, the Koran versions I read have another verse in the same Surah with the word “guardian”:

**Surah 5:57 **
O Ye who believe! Choose not for guardians such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah if ye are true believers.

Might it be that you are confusing these two different verses or naively uniting them?
planten;4000021:
I am ready to accept your book but or you ready to accept my book i.e. Quran? I did not deny that Jews and christians were given guidance. I admit it. But where is it? Tha bible is man made and every word in it is from the men even though it may convey some meaning of the original teachings.
I hope you will never claim that your argument is a logical one. Your faith in the Bible should not be dependent on our faith in the Koran. The Bible is still with us. If you look for a different Bible, you will be disappointed. The supposed Bible you believe in is a product of Mohammad’s fantasies.
I know what Muhammad says. But do you know what your Jees says.?
Yes, we DO. We keep telling you what Jesus says, but you unfortunately believe in what Mohammad taught about Jesus six centuries after Him.
I don’t have to show you anything. You should read the 23 years history of Muhammad the greatest man. I had given you two verses 5:33 and 5:34 to read.
Have you heard of the notion of relativity?
You are biased against Islam. You have the OT with you attached to your NT. That is your new wine (NT) put in old wine sack (The OT). Please read the OT and tell if there are any harsh punishments mentioned there? Those punishments are for you too. Because Jees had come to fulfil the law of Moses. Those punishments are applicable to you christians too. But you have cleverly thrown off the burden that was placed on you by the Jewish law and by the sub ordinate prophet jeesus.
Jesus set us free from the Law by His death. Your scripture states that Jesus changed the Law given to the Jews:

Surah 3:50
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.

It is high time you blamed your scripture for agreeing with the NT.😃
The Jewish law is the real law for you also but you have found an easy way of life and denied that. How clever of you. The laws in the Quran are similar to the laws of the OT and even much better. If you do not look towards the laws of Moses (Your senior and the senior to Jees) then please do not look at the laws of the Quran too.
Why should we go back to the period of Law and punishment after receiving the grace of salvation in Christ? 🤷
 
I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. What do you mean “accusing the basics of Islam”? If you mean disagreeing with Islam, well then, yes, and why shouldn’t they? They are, after all, not Muslims. Such disagreement may feed into the propaganda of the violent Islamist terrorists, but I fail to see an alternative. People who want to deprive you of your rights or kill you just because of your religion are not the sort of people who would respect such disagreements in the first place, and Christians will not just accept things that they believe are false any more than Muslims will, much less for the sake of placating bigots.
Well I did not mean that the christians should become Muslims. But they should behave well towards the religion and the prophet Muhammad. When the Muslims say Islam is a religion of peace, they should not deny it.
I do not know what you’re refering to regarding Paris and Hamburg, so I feel I very well can absolve myself from it since I have no idea what it is (I do not live in Europe).
**Please ask some one about the way of life in predominantly christian countries. They have even legislated for open sex and intersex marriages.
The same deed (men using men for sex was clearly forbidden in the bible OT.
**
And I never said Muslims are at fault for what goes on in their societies; I am confident that the vast majority of everyday Muslims are the same as ordinary non-Muslims: Good people, trying to live their lives.
But you blame Islam for that, for what is going on in Muslim countries. You consider that islam is at fault.
My point is that since the governments of Islamic countries claim to govern in an Islamic manner, with the Qur’an as their explicit guide (as is found in some constitutions of the Muslim countries), then the actions of those governments can be assumed to be undertaken under the auspices of at least specific understanding of Islam and implementation of Islamic law. No such parallel situation exists in the Christian-majority countries.
Forget about the claim of the Islamic countries. Similar claims (laws) exist in the western countries and they have churches supported bt the governments. So please try to see the things properly.
I 'm sorry you feel that way. I thoroughly disagree with you, but I respect your right to hold such an opinion. I have not seen much evidence of the “onslaught” of church against Islam (I have seen much evidence to the contrary, but this is not the thread for that), but I recognize that matters like these are often a matter of perspective.
** I am not against any of your churches in the Muslim countries. You should have churches and pray and preach as you like. But preach your religion. Nothatred against Islam. Can you not see many people on this forum making highly adverse statements against islam and the prophet Muhammad? Same is the case in Muslim countries. They do the same. They are taught to do the same. **.
I for one do not see how these minority churches in the Muslim lands can even effectively mount an onslaught on anything, but then I don’t understand the idea of Muslim victimhood in Muslim-majority countries anyway
.

Replied in above paras…
As with many things, we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for engaging in discussion. Peace! (and I, an idividual Christian and not a church unto myself, really do mean it :))
** Thanks for your good gesture. Please remain like that forever. Then I have nothing against you too. May Allah bless you with His favors.**
 
I take your advice for the replacement of words and read the verse again and again, but cannot see the crucial phrase “at the time of war” there. I still wonder why Muslims prefer using the word “friend” instead of “ally/guard” in the translation of that verse. Is it such a difficult thing for Muslims to listen to you for the accurate translation and correct their mistakes?

Interestingly, the Koran versions I read have another verse in the same Surah with the word “guardian”:

**Surah 5:57 **
O Ye who believe! Choose not for guardians such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah if ye are true believers.

Might it be that you are confusing these two different verses or naively uniting them?

**No, the correct meaning of the word Wali in verse 5:51 is allies. Thanks to one new Muslim (Ex Jew, Leopold Weiss) translator of the Quran, he has written “O believers, Do not take the Jews and Christians as allies…”
May Allah bless his soul in Heavens. Amen.

You cannot see any war in the verse. But can you point out any time when there was not a war imposed by the enemies on the muslims. First there were the Arab Pagans. When they were defeated then the christians thought they could crush the newly formed Muslim state, Try to find any time when war was not imposed on the Muslims during the entire 23 years of the revealtion of the Quran. Please check.**
I hope you will never claim that your argument is a logical one. Your faith in the Bible should not be dependent on our faith in the Koran. The Bible is still with us. If you look for a different Bible, you will be disappointed. The supposed Bible you believe in is a product of Mohammad’s fantasies.
 
Sister Amy:
Do you base this on a Pew poll or something of the sort? lol
The answer is Islam. **The life manual of Islam, the Quran, is a document of exclusion, hatred and violence that shapes the Muslims’ thinking and behaving. **This stone-age document is optimally suited for people of stunted development. People who prefer to follow than to think for themselves, to hate than to love, and to seek death rather than to celebrate life. Amil Imani

Vickie
Okay so it’s just your opinion, or someone else’s opinion, and not research-based fact. Why are you afraid to state it as such… do you think you will lose credibility or something?

And by the way, you should know that I’m not going to read your articles on islam-watch. Please don’t waste my time.
 
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