Missionaries to muslims

[Booklover]

Okay so it’s just your opinion, or someone else’s opinion, and not research-based fact. Why are you afraid to state it as such… do you think you will lose credibility or something?

Just a cursory reading of the Quran proves that it qualifies as hate speech against the unbelievers.

And by the way, you should know that I’m not going to read your articles on islam-watch. Please don’t waste my time.

Are you afraid of finding out that all the things that you deny may be true? Even if you don’t read the article, others might, and see what you fail to see.

Vickie

 

[jen_fla]

Please read the verse as follows:
**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians as your “Allies” or “Guardians” **and protectors: They are but Allies and protectors to each other…

I am ready to accept your book but or you ready to accept my book i.e. Quran? I did not deny that Jews and christians were given guidance. I admit it. But where is it? Tha bible is man made and every word in it is from the men even though it may convey some meaning of the original teachings.

…

I know what Muhammad says. But do you know what your Jees says.?

I don’t have to show you anything. You should read the 23 years history of Muhammad the greatest man. I had given you two verses 5:33 and 5:34 to read.

You are biased against Islam. You have the OT with you attached to your NT. That is your new wine (NT) put in old wine sack (The OT). Please read the OT and tell if there are any harsh punishments mentioned there? Those punishments are for you too. Because Jees had come to fulfil the law of Moses. Those punishments are applicable to you christians too. But you have cleverly thrown off the burden that was placed on you by the Jewish law and by the sub ordinate prophet jeesus.

The Jewish law is the real law for you also but you have found an easy way of life and denied that. How clever of you. The laws in the Quran are similar to the laws of the OT and even much better. If you do not look towards the laws of Moses (Your senior and the senior to Jees) then please do not look at the laws of the Quran too.

I hope I have replied to your questions now.

and here are the two verses you just told me to read:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

005.034
YUSUFALI: Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

are you implying that i am waging war against islam? i asked this before and never received a reply. can war be made with words?

planten we both hold beliefs that we share and obviously we both hold beliefs we do not share. i apologize if the way in which i have communicated with you has been too abrasive.

i love all muslims, but i have a right to question and speak out against some of the things mohammed taught. just as you have a right to say things about your beliefs of the Bible.

i was going to get into the discussion further about wali, but now i am wondering if i just received a subtle warning.

i hope you don’t think i’m causing mischief by giving you a link to read over. it shows many contradictions in the quran. i was going to bring up this one regarding walis:

Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75].

further reading:

answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal

 

[planten]

and here are the two verses you just told me to read:

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

005.034
YUSUFALI: Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

are you implying that i am waging war against islam? i asked this before and never received a reply. can war be made with words?

** I never said that you were waging a war. Where did I say such thing? Please do not assume things. You had asked me about war verses. So I had to present them to show you that it is allowed to fight war with the one who fights the Prophet. **

planten we both hold beliefs that we share and obviously we both hold beliefs we do not share. i apologize if the way in which i have communicated with you has been too abrasive.

**There is no need to apologise if you did not mean any mischief. But it is better to be careful. **

i love all muslims, but i have a right to question and speak out against some of the things mohammed taught. just as you have a right to say things about your beliefs of the Bible.

Similarly, I also love all Jews and christians and I admit the rights as above.

i was going to get into the discussion further about wali, but now i am wondering if i just received a subtle warning.

i hope you don’t think i’m causing mischief by giving you a link to read over. it shows many contradictions in the quran. i was going to bring up this one regarding walis:

I do not like to read any links. Excuse me.

Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75].

further reading:

answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#internal

The real meaning of Wali was given to you. It is ally or supporter or guardian. That has an implied meaning of friend. Friend is not the real meaning of Wali. O.K. Bye.

 

[ralphinal]

Planten,
If I missed your answer I am sorry. Does the Qur’an teach that at no time a Muslim should be allies with Christians in a war or battle?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

sister amy, please answer this as honestly as you can?

how did you come to this false conclusion? it is so not true that i am baffled as to how you arrived at the exact opposite conclusion. Jews and Christians can NOT publicly worship in saudi arabia. no Churches or synagogues can be built!

As Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state, all law is based on the Holy Quran. It is called Sharia law and governs both criminal and civil cases.

The Quran itself is considered the constitution of the country and provides ethical values and guidance. 

Executive and legislative authorities are exercised by the King and the Council of Ministers within the framework of Islamic law. The Kingdom's ministries and all other government agencies are ultimately responsible to the King.

Islam is the faith on which The Kingdom is founded. To understand the law, history, political, economic and social development of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, it is necessary to realize that Islam, which permeates every aspect of a Muslim’s life, also permeates every aspect of the Saudi Arabian state including the law.

Underlying the judicial structure are the four schools of thought in Islamic law. They are: the Hanbali school; the Shafii school; the Hanafi school; and the Maliki.

Before the unification of the Saudi judicial system, the courts, as well as individual judges, used to derive their legal judgments from these various schools. In the Western Region, for instance, there were two dominant schools of thought - the Hanafi, and the Shafii, whereas in the Central Region, the Hanbali school had been the only major source of legal guidance.

The Courts/Judiciary in the Kingdom now issue their rulings/judgments/decisions on the basis of what is stated in the Holy Quran and on the Sunna (practices/mode of life) of the Prophet, and is guided without being limited to the specific opinion of any one of the aforementioned schools of law."

from here:arab.net/saudi/sa_law.htm

from australia’s government. a warning adversery for those traveling to saudi arabia:
]Local Laws

When you are in Saudi Arabia, be aware that local laws and penalties, including ones that appear harsh by Australian standards, do apply to you. If you are arrested or jailed, the Australian Government will do what it can to help you but we can’t get you out of trouble or out of jail.

Information on what Australian consular officers can and cannot do to help Australians in trouble overseas is available from the Consular Services Charter.

Penalties for trafficking, possessing or using drugs are severe and include the death penalty.
**
Homosexual acts are illegal and penalties include the death penalty.**

Other offences punishable with the death penalty include murder, adultery, rape and abandoning religion (Islam).

Penalties for some criminal offences include corporal punishment and deportation. Theft-related offences may be punished with amputation, while offenders may be sentenced to lashes for other offences.

Preaching religions other than Islam may result in imprisonment and corporal punishment. The importation and use of alcohol, pork products, pornography (including images of scantily clad people, particularly women), religious books and materials (other than those reflecting orthodox Islam) is forbidden. Generally, individuals are able to bring one bible for private use.

Possession of alcohol may result in imprisonment and corporal punishment. Travellers have been detained on arrival in Saudi Arabia when police have detected the smell of alcohol on their breath.
**
Foreigners, particularly women, have reported incidents of assault after being approached by Muttawa (Religious Police).** If approached by Muttawa, you should remain sensitive to the Muttawa’s authority and seek to end the encounter as quickly as possible - if necessary, by leaving the area immediately.

Photography of official buildings, including government buildings, military installations, checkpoints, embassies and palaces is illegal and carries harsh penalties.

**Women are legally required to wear the abaya, **a long black coat that conceals their body shape, in all public places. The abaya is worn over loose-fitting, full-length clothing. While many local women wear a headscarf, foreign women are not generally required to follow suit. It is advisable, though, to carry a dark-coloured scarf in case you are confronted by the Muttawa.

Business travellers involved in a commercial dispute with a Saudi company or individual may be prevented from leaving the country until the dispute is resolved.

It is illegal for unmarried couples to live together. Hotels may refuse accommodation to couples unable to provide proof of marriage.

Some Australian criminal laws, such as those relating to money laundering, bribery of foreign public officials, terrorism and child sex tourism, apply to Australians overseas. Australians who commit these offences while overseas may be prosecuted in Australia.

Australian authorities are committed to combating sexual exploitation of children by Australians overseas. Australians may be prosecuted at home under Australian child sex tourism laws. These laws provide severe penalties of up to 17 years imprisonment for Australians who engage in sexual activity with children under 16 while outside of Australia.

you might find this interesting:

smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/advice/saudi_arabia

Btw, the last bits are interesting, because in Saudi Arabia, provided you are “married,” sex with a minor is OK, and her consent is not required.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Isa sahib, sis Amy is right as far as the actual Islamic law is concerned. If it is not being practiced in any Muslim country that is not the fault of Sis Amy. It may be your fault.

You are not listening to any truth. You are not supporting the truth. Instead you are opposing the moderate Muslims and taking side with the ignorant ones. Please do not judge Islam by what the Muslims are doing. We do not judge your governments by what the christians are doing, in Paris and else where.

Just see what is being given to you and try to accommodate the material. Islam is a completely peaceful religion. If you will have hatred against Islam (and the prophet) then you will have what you are having and facing in the so called Muslim countries. Please do not complain.

Sorry, I’ve lived in the Muslim world, and travelled in a large chunk of it. So I don’t have to listen to anything: I’ve seen it.

I have a number of Muslim friends. One was in my wedding party. And yes, I will state that most of them are moderate as well as pious (observing all the prayers).

The most problems I have with Muslims is with those who know nothing about it except it is “right.” Communalism at its finest.

As for judging “Christians,” I don’t mind if they are judging those who claim to act on Christian principles. That doesn’t include “Madonna” for instance.

I wasn’t born in the Muslim world, but I know plenty who were. One, a Copt, showed with great pride the cross tattoo on his hand. You see, when the Muslims came and set up their governance of Egypt, they extracted the jizya, and used to brand your hand to show you paid (it also marked you for lynching). When they stopped we continued to use the tattoo mark as a sign to each other. This Copt pointed to it and said “this means my father, and his father and his father all the way back over a thousand years, was willing to die for this. I am willing to die for this.” Not an empty fear in Egypt nowadays. I’ll complain for him, a “guest” in his own country, the land of his forefathers.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Please replace the word “Friends” by the word “Allies” or “Guardians”. Then read the verses. You will be satisfied. Friend is not a good translation o fthe Arabic word “Wali”. So now you understand that during the times of war, it is not advised to the Muslims to take the Jews and christians as Allies. They are the allies (supporters) of eath other. Look at the marvel and miracle of Quran. The above news is even true today. Would you deny that? The Jews and Christians are the allies of each other even today.

Please do not bring Hadith. It is only as good as your bible, a man made document describing the life of Jesus. It is nothing from God. Same is for the Hadith. That is a man made document, not very reliable and not 100% true. (same as bible).

If there is any Hadith which goes against the teachings of the Quran then it has to be rejected. That is a principle.

Please remember that there were wars all the time against Islam and the prophet of Islam (all the time). During early part in Madinah, he was being attacked by pagans of Arabia from Makkah. Later when they were defeated, the prophet was being attacked by the nearby satellites of the Christian Kingdom i.e. kaisar. There was no rest.

That continued until the death of the prophet in 632 A.D. Even at that time, there was danger of imminent attack from the Roman Empire. So please read some history too. Also read verses 5:33 and 5:34. I will be with you now onward. And I will try to reply to the rest of your post #136 later.

Take your debate over Hadith to your Muslim brothers. The only thing we need to worry about is that those running Islamic law (caliphs, ulama’, whatever) have based Islamic law on them, and enforced them.

WE have no good reason to distinguish between Quran and Hadith (the majority of Muslims don’t) except to recognize that some Muslims have become selective, in a secular sense, about them.

Btw, the Bible is divinely inspired.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

How could this logically be the case? I do not agree that it is in any way Sister Amy’s fault that Islamic law is practiced as it is in the Islamic countries (I don’t think this is what Isa Almisry was implying, but I can’t be sure), but I believe even less that it could be a NON-Muslim’s fault how Islamic countries are run! That makes absolutely no sense.

This is irrelevant, since the western countries do not operate under any religious law, so they do not generally claim to be “Christian” governments. Though some do acknowledge ‘Judeo-Christian principles’ as the foundation of their societies, many actually go out of their way to not codify Biblical commandments, in deference to the multi-religious character of their societies.

This also strikes me as odd. So the religious minorities of the Muslim countries have brought upon themselves their own fate? Even the mostly foreign workers of Saudi Arabia? Even the indigenous Christians of Egypt and Iraq, who predate the arrival of Islam to their countries by many centuries?

Just to confirm, no, Sister Amy, as far as I know, has no authority over the Muslim governments. Nor has she been an apologist for them. I just want to point out that she has an idealized visage of Islam. All well, fine and good, but we have to live with the visage that is being pushed at the edge of a sword. Saying that is not true Islam is not going to be enough.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Please read the verse as follows:
**005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians as your “Allies” or “Guardians” **and protectors: They are but Allies and protectors to each other…

I am ready to accept your book but or you ready to accept my book i.e. Quran?

No, and neither do you accept our Bible.

I did not deny that Jews and christians were given guidance. I admit it. But where is it?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

It could be as the christians are accusing the basics of Islam against the clear explanations of the moderate Muslims. So the christians are giving support to the beliefs of the muslim bigots.

When the Serbian “Orthodox” started committing genocide in Bosnia (not the only side to do so, btw, not by far) the Serbian Orthodox Patriarch Pavle forbade baptisms in Bosnia (least there was forced conversion), defrocked any priest that gave any blessing to the genocide, and listed a series of activities which he decreed any one doing them (murder, rape, etc.) was automatically excommunicated.

Can you point to a similar fatwa in Islam?

It’s not our job to clean up Islam. We have no stake in its continued existence.

** It is same every where. What is going on in Paris and Hamburg is not the fault of the church then what is going on in the predominantly muslim countries is not the fault of Islam. There is relevance. You cannot absolve yourself from what is going on in Paris… Where are the padres? and Where are your teachers? Why they could not stop what was going on in your cities?**

Paris is officially a secular country. You can’t even wear a crucifix. The muslim countries have Islam as their state creed. Pakistan says that Islam is the only reason for its existence. Can’t see the difference, can you?

**If not the religious minorities living in Muslim countries then the general teaching (onslought) of the church upon Islam is responsible. If the church practice the theory of love that is preached so much then there would have been no problem. But there is no love. That is only a slogan to mislead the poor muslims.

The church cannot even preach peacefully.**

As second class citizens, no.

According to all accounts, the last words your prophet said was that there should not be two religions in Arabia. And so the Christians were expelled and the Churches destroyed. Islamic peace.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I
Jesus set us free from the Law by His death. Your scripture states that Jesus changed the Law given to the Jews:

Surah 3:50
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.

It is high time you blamed your scripture for agreeing with the NT.

[SIGN]SCORE![/SIGN]

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Well I did not mean that the christians should become Muslims. But they should behave well towards the religion and the prophet Muhammad. When the Muslims say Islam is a religion of peace, they should not deny it.

and the truth shall set you free.

**Please ask some one about the way of life in predominantly christian countries. They have even legislated for open sex and intersex marriages.
The same deed (men using men for sex was clearly forbidden in the bible OT.
**

Hate to break it to you but there is a LOT of homosexuality going on in the Muslim world. A gay man I know (they say they look at the Middle East as Disneyland) said that inevitably when he was there, and a man didn’t “look him over” it always turned out the man was a local Christian.

Muta (temporary marriage), easy divorce (for the man), polygamy, child marriage, etc. all allowed under Islam.

Btw, the Quran promises youths in paradise. For what?

Btw, I think you mean same sex marriage. A marriage should be intersex, that’s how it works.

But you blame Islam for that, for what is going on in Muslim countries. You consider that islam is at fault.

If you can show one of those governments legalizing same sex marriage, for instance, stating that they do it based on the Bible and the Church, I’ll buy your argument.

I would point out the justification the Muslim governments give based on the Quran, etc. but life is too short.

Forget about the claim of the Islamic countries. Similar claims (laws) exist in the western countries and they have churches supported bt the governments. So please try to see the things properly.

Can we get some specifics?

I’ve heard plenty of Muslims in the West complain about the society is sick (yet they came here) and that it needs the “medicine of Islam.”

If the Islamic world can’t come up with a society that satisfies its requirements, well, “Physician, heal thyself.”

SIZE=“2”]** I am not against any of your churches in the Muslim countries. You should have churches and pray and preach as you like. But preach your religion. Nothatred against Islam. Can you not see many people on this forum making highly adverse statements against islam and the prophet Muhammad? Same is the case in Muslim countries. They do the same. They are taught to do the same. **

.

Sorry, we’re not going to OK what happened with Ayesha (the child bride) and Zayd’s wife (he married his adopted son’s wife, after having him divorce him, after a “revelation” OKing the deal) just to make you happy, especially as it is seen as a laudable pattern of behavior.

And the Quran spefically says G-d d-mn us for saying Jesus is the Son of God. Not going to stop proclaiming that either. (btw. the Jews have no idea of what the Quran is talking about them calling Ezrah the son of God).

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I take your advice for the replacement of words and read the verse again and again, but cannot see the crucial phrase “at the time of war” there. I still wonder why Muslims prefer using the word “friend” instead of “ally/guard” in the translation of that verse. Is it such a difficult thing for Muslims to listen to you for the accurate translation and correct their mistakes?

You cannot see any war in the verse. But can you point out any time when there was not a war imposed by the enemies on the muslims. First there were the Arab Pagans. When they were defeated then the christians thought they could crush the newly formed Muslim state, Try to find any time when war was not imposed on the Muslims during the entire 23 years of the revealtion of the Quran. Please check.

With the Christians of Najran.

I do not discuss any other bible except the one that Catholics have got. But there are many versions.

Btw, are you aware of the various recensions/versions of the Quran?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qira%27at

And Protestants also have a bible with less books.

yes, there mistake. And it was long after Islam’s rise that they made it. Btw, you know about the missing verses of the Quran. And what about abrogation (naskh).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28exegesis%29

I know all about the bible that it is written life story of Jesus. Nothing very important except just a few good wise words from Jesus himself. The rest is all later addition not belonging to the real man Jesus.

You mean the Epistles? They’re written by the Apostles (Arabic rasuul), which means the ones Jesus SENT.

I will not press for that. I will believe what you say about the bible. But are you also ready to believe what I say about the Quran? I hope not. So you have two standards. You want all the good things for yourself while you ascribe the bad things to others. That is no good faith, if church teaches you that !

The Bible makes claims and and substantiate them.

The Quran makes claims.

No two standards.

** That is good. You keep telling me what Jesus said and tell it from your book please. Not from your mind. I do not mind if you tell me all about Jesus from the bible ( 4 gospels). All must be there.

There is a God of all people. God has been revealing things to men before Jesus and Moses. He revealed to Abraham and Abraham was niether a Jew nor a christian. God revealed to Lot and he was also not a Jew or a christian.

God revealed Himself to Noah and Noah was not any Jew or a christian. Will you agree to these things?. The Quran is telling all that and your bible does not deny it.

So what is wrong if after the departure of Jesus from the scene within three years, the God would reveal Himself to Muhammad? And told all the good things about all prophets some of them you deny. God told all the good things of Jesus and his mother Mary in the Quran to the believers. But you apply the brakes there. Why?**

The Jews deny that Jesus was the Messiah, and so they are still waiting for the Messiah.

The Muslims claim that Muhammad (or Ahmad, in the standard story) is the prophet that Jesus told His followers to wait for.

But we’re not waiting for anyone.

The Message can’t contradict itself.

Btw, Adam, Noah, Abraham. Jesus were NOT Muslims.

** I have no problem with anything told to us about the OT or the NT. That is the truth of the Quran. Without Quran you have no one in the world to talk about your Jesus. The Jews do not believe in him as a good man. The Hindus do not believe. The Budhists do not know about Jesus. Tell me who besides the Muslims has any good record about jesus in good words. But you are anxious to disprove all that!**

Actually many Hindus (Gandhi for instance) and Budhdhists (e.g. the Dalai Lama) and even some Jews and even atheists have good things to say about Jesus, no matter their thoughts on Christians.

The Quran says that Jesus isn’t God, never claimed to the Son of God, didn’t die, didn’t rise. We have nothing to talk about.

That is your mistake. Jesus lived a life within the law of Moses. He even spoke that not a word of the law will be removed or forgotten. His disciples also walked on the same path. tell me what you have got now of the way Jesus lived. Nothing at all. You have nothing the like of Jesus or his close friends.

yes, he lived the law, fulfilled it, and gave a new Commandment and a new Covenant.

Some one has misled you very far away from the real purpose of Jesus teachings.

We say the same to you.

But we can back it up.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh, I definitely agree with you on all points, Isa. I just did not want to seem as though I was speaking for you or defending Planten’s incorrect interpretation of your view.

The story of your Copt friend is very beautiful and edifying, by the way. Thank you very much for sharing it.

Planten: I do not want to rehash the same arguments with you over and over, but I would like to point out that I did not once blame Islam what goes on in the Muslim countries - the Islamic governments themselves do that when they govern in accordance to their understanding of Islamic principles. THEY kill people and say “this is done in accordance with Islam”, THEY beat, torture, and murder apostates and say “this is done in accordance with Islam”, and THEY oppress, threaten, and murder religious minorities and say “this is done in accordance with Islam”. If you have a problem with that (and it’s right that you should), then don’t blame ME for simply noticing that this happens.

As I have said before, I don’t think that this is the ideology of the majority of Muslims (so, no, I am not blaming Muslims as a whole), but it is not slander to say that it is nonetheless part of Islam as it is practiced, just the same as I could say that there are some people who claim to be Christian who indulge in practices I find incredibly reprehensible. It is part of Christianity and I will not sugarcoat it, because if I did I would not be able to fight against it effectively. We should all work to bring our brothers and sisters (and ourselves!) into a full understanding of our faith, no matter what that faith is.

The difference, from my vantage point, is how the faith-damaging actions are dealt with in each community. I have seen far too many Christians attempt to justify horrible behaviors in the name of Christianity, and usually be rightly dealt with harshly (usually when brought before secular courts of western or international justice). We are definitely not without sin or blame as a community, and I do think we have many behaviors to correct.

I have not seen much of a similar effort in the Islamic world, where many horrific acts are given legal sanction or at least pardon by Islamically-inspired authorities, whether right or wrong.

So, as a non-Muslim, what am I to do? I take the Muslims who say that brutality is in accordance with Islam at their word, and I also take those who say that such brutality is not acceptable in their understanding of the religion at their word. That two such drastically different interpretations of one religion exist is not terribly suprising to me (I am a Christian, after all…), but it is nevertheless a cause of much concern when the violent practioners are not reigned in, but instead are given blessings by Islamic governments and the at least tacit (if not implicit) compliance/apathy of Muslims across the world who are far more busy being offended by non-Muslims than by the actions of fellow Muslims.

 

[jen_fla]

isa and dzheremi… fantatstic posts! :yup:

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… I do not like to read any links. Excuse me. …

uch:

 

[Angelos]

No, the correct meaning of the word Wali in verse 5:51 is allies. Thanks to one new Muslim (Ex Jew, Leopold Weiss) translator of the Quran, he has written “O believers, Do not take the Jews and Christians as allies…”
May Allah bless his soul in Heavens. Amen.

You can keep blessing that new Muslim for his so-called accurate translation of the word, nothing wrong with that! What I would like to know is if you will curse the souls of all Muslims who insist of translating that word as “friends”. Is not the word “ally” linguistically associated with the word “friend”?

You cannot see any war in the verse. But can you point out any time when there was not a war imposed by the enemies on the muslims. First there were the Arab Pagans. When they were defeated then the christians thought they could crush the newly formed Muslim state, Try to find any time when war was not imposed on the Muslims during the entire 23 years of the revealtion of the Quran. Please check.

There were also times when Muslims declared wars on pagans and non-Muslims. You are trying to insert your personal interpretation into your scripture to support your theories. The authors of the Koran did not confine that verse to the time of conflicts. The commandment not to make friends with Jews and Christians was meant for all times in the Koran.

I do not discuss any other bible except the one that Catholics have got. But there are many versions. And Protestants also have a bible with less books. I know all about the bible that it is written life story of Jesus. Nothing very important except just a few good wise words from Jesus himself. The rest is all later addition not belonging to the real man Jesus.

At the time of the Koran and Islamic heresy, all Christians had the same number of books in the Bible. Even today the number of books in the New Testament is the same for traditional and reformed churches alike. You should study history.

You contradict yourself by first saying that you know all about the Bible and then claiming that the Bible is Jesus’ life story. You sound like a man who says, “I am a devout Catholic. I follow the principle of Sola Scriptura” (only the Holy Scripture).

I also accept some of the nice things said about Jesus and Mary in the Koran, but such statements are few since most of the Koran is the false copy of the Bible and apocryphal literature.

I will not press for that. I will believe what you say about the bible. But are you also ready to believe what I say about the Quran? I hope not. So you have two standards. You want all the good things for yourself while you ascribe the bad things to others. That is no good faith, if church teaches you that !

It is a mystery behind me how you can say this while your scripture declares all Jews and Christians sinners equal to pagans and says that Islam is the only true religion of Allah.

That is good. You keep telling me what Jesus said and tell it from your book please. Not from your mind. I do not mind if you tell me all about Jesus from the bible ( 4 gospels). All must be there.

There is a God of all people. God has been revealing things to men before Jesus and Moses. He revealed to Abraham and Abraham was niether a Jew nor a christian. God revealed to Lot and he was also not a Jew or a christian.

God revealed Himself to Noah and Noah was not any Jew or a christian. Will you agree to these things?. The Quran is telling all that and your bible does not deny it.

Sorry, your argument makes no sense since we never claim that Abraham was a Jew or Christian. Such a biased and irrational form of anachronism belongs to Islam, which tries to mark all messengers as “Muslims” coming with the same message and failing to establish Islam on earth. The Koran claims that Noah was a Muslim who cursed the idols of Meccan pagans. This is equal to saying that Noah watched the contest named “the weakest link” on BBC prime in his free time.

So what is wrong if after the departure of Jesus from the scene within three years, the God would reveal Himself to Muhammad? And told all the good things about all prophets some of them you deny. God told all the good things of Jesus and his mother Mary in the Quran to the believers. But you apply the brakes there. Why?

Three years? Three is not equal to 600! More to the point, we deny Mohammad and his Koran because they appeared centuries later than Jesus and tried to change Jesus’ teachings. Thus, we deny Mohammad as Christians of the second centuries denied Gnosticism.

I am specialist in relativity.

However, you do not know that I will never consider subjective comments as scientific or historic facts.

I have no problem with anything told to us about the OT or the NT. That is the truth of the Quran. Without Quran you have no one in the world to talk about your Jesus. The Jews do not believe in him as a good man. The Hindus do not believe. The Budhists do not know about Jesus. Tell me who besides the Muslims has any good record about jesus in good words. But you are anxious to disprove all that!

Sorry, we do not need the Koran to prove Jesus’ existence because we have the New Testament and the Church that had existed prior to Mohammad’s birth! We have never promised to believe in the Koran on condition that Muslims praise Jesus and Mary in their scripture. There has never been such a deal between the Church and Mohammad.

That is your mistake. Jesus lived a life within the law of Moses. He even spoke that not a word of the law will be removed or forgotten. His disciples also walked on the same path. tell me what you have got now of the way Jesus lived. Nothing at all. You have nothing the like of Jesus or his close friends.

Some one has misled you very far away from the real purpose of Jesus teachings.

It is true that Jesus said not a word of the Law will be removed or forgotten, which came true. We still believe that the OT is the authentic word of God (unlike Muslims, who teach that Allah’s words cannot be altered, yet believe that only the Koran is the authentic revelation!).

How can you expect us to follow the Jewish Law whilst Jesus in the New Testament says that He has come to make a new covenant??? You should read the prologue in John’s Gospel to see why we are free of the Law and how Jesus is different from Moses.

 

[inJESUS]

Does anyone see a problem with the following verse:

And We have sent no Messenger save with the tongue of his people,that he might make all clear to them…S. 14:4

 

[jen_fla]

** I never said that you were waging a war. Where did I say such thing? Please do not assume things. You had asked me about war verses. So I had to present them to show you that it is allowed to fight war with the one who fights the Prophet. **

sorry. i read the entire chapter and those passages you gave (are they called ayas?) clearly show that they are for a time of war. the passages about not taking jews or christians for friends (or guardians as you say) does not mention anything about war. i see how you implied it, but even that is still a pretty bad command to NEVER allow your self to work together with us in a time of war. if you were my neighbor and some mob came in and decided they wanted to take over our block i would hope and pray we could put aside our differences to work together to stop this mob from wiping us all out. do you agree?

so long story short, i give passage that is not so nice. you say it is from time of war. i read whole chapter and clearly see how some are for all time (like the hand to be chopped off) and how those particular verses (the ones that actually say during war) are clearly for a time during war.

i just didn’t see how you pointing out the ones that clearly denoted time during war had anything to do with what i had said so i thought they were randomly thrown in to get me to stop mischief! i am aware that muslims are taught not to press issues that they don’t understand, yet to me that’s the only way to learn. i am scared that my pressing of these issues will be seen as making mischief.

anyway when mohammed meant during war, he stated it.

notice how he did not say in times of war is the only time to chop off the hands of thieves, so i don’t think the whole do not take us as friends passage is for war time either.

**There is no need to apologise if you did not mean any mischief. But it is better to be careful. **

what does mischief mean? can war be waged on islam with words?

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
planten;4002252:

Similarly, I also love all Jews and christians and I admit the rights as above

.

I do not like to read any links. Excuse me.

The real meaning of Wali was given to you. It is ally or supporter or guardian. That has an implied meaning of friend. Friend is not the real meaning of Wali. O.K. Bye.

that is a shame you won’t read links. i will copy and paste a bit for you.

from islamicity a very PRO islam site:

Wali (WALEE) - legal guardian. A friend or protector. Someone who is supposed to look out for your interest.

from wiki

sunni def:

It is short for Waliullah or friend of God. Here Wali means friend. Belief in the Awliya is an agreed upon article of faith in Sunni Islam having been mentioned in the earliest creeds to the most recent. Imam Tahawi mentions them in his creed:[2]

shia def:

It is short for Waliullah as well. Again it means friend. However the word Waliullah refers to Ali, son-in-law of Muhammad; Fatima, daughter of the Prophet. Shi’as corroborate this with the following Quranic Verse, pertaining to the incident widely narrated in both Sunni and Shia narrations (ahadith) where Ali while in prostration gave his ring in charity to a beggar without raising his head from his prayer.

Salafi def:

Salafies quote the following verse to denounce any meaning other than Master/Owner/Guardian:

بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمَنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلاَةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ [Qur’an Sūra 5: Māida, or The Table Spread:55]

“Only Allah is your Wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.[Shakir 5:55].”

please note that this quran passage contradicts these quran passages:

Allah has full knowledge of your enemies, and **Allah is Sufficient as a Wali **(Protector), and Allah is Sufficient as a Helper. S. 4:45

Verily, Allah! Unto Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth, He gives life and He causes death. **And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper. **S. 9:116

Allah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper etc.) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or be admonished)? S. 32:4

i think we can both agree that this is quite confusing as there are too many contradictions in quran. quran is supposed to be clear and easy to read for anyone.

you say to ignore hadith when it contradicts quran.

what do you do if quran contradicts itself?

Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75]. :doh2:

 

[inJESUS]

Regarding war, who was fighting the Caliphs who conquered so many lands?