Missionaries to muslims

[planten]

and the truth shall set you free.

Hate to break it to you but there is a LOT of homosexuality going on in the Muslim world. …
…

If you can show one of those governments legalizing same sex marriage, for instance, stating that they do it based on the Bible and the Church, I’ll buy your argument.

** Isa Almisry, It is not my duty to prove that the head of state of the christian countries do it on the basis of the bible. Yet they do it. I remember the Queen of Britian signing the homosexual act. She is the head of the church there. You cannot disown her anyway…**

I would point out the justification the Muslim governments give based on the Quran, etc. but life is too short.

There is no need. Such things are far and few. Not on a large scale as in christian dominated countries. And you do not take any responsibilty…

Can we get some specifics?

I’ve heard plenty of Muslims in the West complain about the society is sick (yet they came here) and that it needs the “medicine of Islam.”

If the Islamic world can’t come up with a society that satisfies its requirements, well, “Physician, heal thyself.”

** No need for my reply. Matter is not understood and not important.**

Sorry, we’re not going to OK what happened with Ayesha (the child bride) and Zayd’s wife (he married his adopted son’s wife, after having him divorce him, after a “revelation” OKing the deal) just to make you happy, especially as it is seen as a laudable pattern of behavior.

**You are entering the wrong field now. You may be asked to explain why Mary gave birth to Jesus at the age of 12… And Jesus having an affair with a previously very wicked woman named Magd… Even having a son from her… Please see the Da Vinci Code. The cemetary of Jesus family has recently been discovered where the son of Jesus is said to be buried. You should restrain your self from going into idle talk.

I won’t ask you to explain any of the above charges.
**

And the Quran spefically says G-d d-mn us for saying Jesus is the Son of God. Not going to stop proclaiming that either. (btw. the Jews have no idea of what the Quran is talking about them calling Ezrah the son of God).

** That marriage of the prophet to Zainab was necessary to prove the real status of son. An adopted son is not after all a real son. So is Jesus not any type of son of God. He is not even an adopted son of God.
That marriage was necessary to disprove the sonship business of Jesus with God. Indirectly it had a serious link with the wrong thinking of people about the son and the father in the christian world forever,

The marriage to the adopted son proved that there is no adopted or so called son at all. So it has given a good lesson that Jesus cannot be the son of God in any way.

But the church is bent upon proving that Jesus (and only Jesus) is the begotten son of God. How come? Every one knows the meaning of the begotten. If not then see the first few lines of mathew. It says “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob. Jacob begat…”

So please see how could God beget Jesus as per use of the word Begat in the bible NT? It is simply not possible. Once you have solved that riddle then please come to me complaining about the marraige of the prophet with the ex wife of his adopted son.

There are other fallacies involved in your post that the prophet tried to have Zainab divorced so that he could marry her. That is a blunt lie.**

 

[planten]

Oh, I definitely agree with you on all points, Isa. I just did not want to seem as though I was speaking for you or defending Planten’s incorrect interpretation of your view.

The story of your Copt friend is very beautiful and edifying, by the way. Thank you very much for sharing it.

Planten: I do not want to rehash the same arguments with you over and over, but I would like to point out that I did not once blame Islam what goes on in the Muslim countries - the Islamic governments themselves do that when they govern in accordance to their understanding of Islamic principles. THEY kill people and say “this is done in accordance with Islam”, THEY beat, torture, and murder apostates and say “this is done in accordance with Islam”, and THEY oppress, threaten, and murder religious minorities and say “this is done in accordance with Islam”. If you have a problem with that (and it’s right that you should), then don’t blame ME for simply noticing that this happens.

As I have said before, I don’t think that this is the ideology of the majority of Muslims (so, no, I am not blaming Muslims as a whole), but it is not slander to say that it is nonetheless part of Islam as it is practiced, just the same as I could say that there are some people who claim to be Christian who indulge in practices I find incredibly reprehensible. It is part of Christianity and I will not sugarcoat it, because if I did I would not be able to fight against it effectively. We should all work to bring our brothers and sisters (and ourselves!) into a full understanding of our faith, no matter what that faith is.

The difference, from my vantage point, is how the faith-damaging actions are dealt with in each community. I have seen far too many Christians attempt to justify horrible behaviors in the name of Christianity, and usually be rightly dealt with harshly (usually when brought before secular courts of western or international justice). We are definitely not without sin or blame as a community, and I do think we have many behaviors to correct.

I have not seen much of a similar effort in the Islamic world, where many horrific acts are given legal sanction or at least pardon by Islamically-inspired authorities, whether right or wrong.

So, as a non-Muslim, what am I to do? I take the Muslims who say that brutality is in accordance with Islam at their word, and I also take those who say that such brutality is not acceptable in their understanding of the religion at their word. That two such drastically different interpretations of one religion exist is not terribly suprising to me (I am a Christian, after all…), but it is nevertheless a cause of much concern when the violent practioners are not reigned in, but instead are given blessings by Islamic governments and the at least tacit (if not implicit) compliance/apathy of Muslims across the world who are far more busy being offended by non-Muslims than by the actions of fellow Muslims.

**Your post is reasonable. I also do not defend the practice of the majority Muslims of today. I have grand differences with their interpretation of Islamic ideology. But you know one man or a few cannot face the multitude. Yet I stick to what I know about Islam.

If I tell it here, the christian friends deny it and try to tell me whatever is being believed by the majority muslims and being practiced in Muslim states. I am not responsible for that.

I do not support whatever they are doing. To me they are doing against Islam. But those things can be taken one at a time and can be discussed. But will you believe me? I hope not.

So in return, I present to you what bad things are going in the predominant christian countries. Then you disown them. The best course is to forget what Muslims and christians of today are doing. It is better to go to the basics and discuss the matters sensibly and honestly from each others scripture only.

I know that muslims are entirely wrong on many major counts. But I also know that christians are not walking on the path of Jesus, so much so that if ever Jesus appeared on earth today, he would not be able to recognise his own people, his own followers. Peace.**

 

[planten]

You can keep blessing that new Muslim for his so-called accurate translation of the word, nothing wrong with that! What I would like to know is if you will curse the souls of all Muslims who insist of translating that word as “friends”. Is not the word “ally” linguistically associated with the word “friend”?

**It is associated with friendship. But the translation makes such a big difference for which you have basis for such a hue and cry. So forget about “Friends”. Use the words allies " O Muslims, do not take teh jews and the christians as your Allies". It is even true today. What do you say? Surprisingly. **

There were also times when Muslims declared wars on pagans and non-Muslims. You are trying to insert your personal interpretation into your scripture to support your theories. The authors of the Koran did not confine that verse to the time of conflicts. The commandment not to make friends with Jews and Christians was meant for all times in the Koran.

** It is not necessary. The verse was advising the Muslims of that time who were under threat of war, even actual war. **

At the time of the Koran and Islamic heresy, all Christians had the same number of books in the Bible. Even today the number of books in the New Testament is the same for traditional and reformed churches alike. You should study history.

You contradict yourself by first saying that you know all about the Bible and then claiming that the Bible is Jesus’ life story. You sound like a man who says, “I am a devout Catholic. I follow the principle of Sola Scriptura” (only the Holy Scripture).

I also accept some of the nice things said about Jesus and Mary in the Koran, but such statements are few since most of the Koran is the false copy of the Bible and apocryphal literature.

**You know that the books with protestants are different. There is no original text of the bible available. Only translations are available. You have many sects, including the recently sprouted few sects like the mormons and Jehovas Witnesses.

You last para above is a total misconception. The Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad by Allah through the agency of the angel Gabriel. If you say such bad things then I would say the writers of the bible sat down and cooked up some stories about a non existent person (Jesus).

There are not just a few things in the Quran about Jesus. There is much more about him and his mother and grand mother too. But what have you got in your bible except that the some ancestors of Jesus were illegally born. It is a shame.**

It is a mystery behind me how you can say this while your scripture declares all Jews and Christians sinners equal to pagans and says that Islam is the only true religion of Allah.

** I don’t say that and my religious book also does not say it. It gives good reognition to the initial faith of the Jews and the christians and gives quite a good true history of what they had been doing. It calls them people of the books. It says that they should follow their religion. What else do you want? The problem is that church has lost hold on the public and unable to control their own people.**

What??? Why???

Sorry, your argument makes no sense since we never claim that Abraham was a Jew or Christian. Such a biased and irrational form of anachronism belongs to Islam, which tries to mark all messengers as “Muslims” coming with the same message and failing to establish Islam on earth. The Koran claims that Noah was a Muslim who cursed the idols of Meccan pagans. This is equal to saying that Noah watched the contest named “the weakest link” on BBC prime in his free time.

You are trying to run away now, disowning some of the most important persons of the earlier faiths.

Three years? Three is not equal to 600! More to the point, we deny Mohammad and his Koran because they appeared centuries later than Jesus and tried to change Jesus’ teachings. Thus, we deny Mohammad as Christians of the second centuries denied Gnosticism.

**So did Jesus, came many hundred years after Moses and other prophets. He was a prophet of God under the command of Moses a.s. A sub ordinate prophet only, without any new code (law). A prophet to the Israelis only. He came exactly after 1400 years after Moses. Why did he take up so much time?

Muhammad was foretold by Moses and Jesus both. He acted exactly like Jesus in makkah when there was great opposition and persecution. But he did not disappear like Jesus (within 3 years) because Jesus had said that the parclete will lead the people to all truth. That is what Muhammad did.
Muhammad acted like Moses with powerful command over his followers while in Madinah, and so on,**

However, you do not know that I will never consider subjective comments as scientific or historic facts.

Not understood…

Sorry, we do not need the Koran to prove Jesus’ existence because we have the New Testament and the Church that had existed prior to Mohammad’s birth! We have never promised to believe in the Koran on condition that Muslims praise Jesus and Mary in their scripture. There has never been such a deal between the Church and Mohammad.

** But you need the OT and that is why you have got your NT tied up with the old winesack (OT). Jesus had forbidden it. He said “Do not put new wine in old winesacks. It is not wise. The old winesacks will burst”… But you do not care what Jesus said.

To cover your weakness, you have got the NT tied up with the OT even though you do not follow any law of the OT.**

It is true that Jesus said not a word of the Law will be removed or forgotten, which came true. We still believe that the OT is the authentic word of God (unlike Muslims, who teach that Allah’s words cannot be altered, yet believe that only the Koran is the authentic revelation!).

How can you expect us to follow the Jewish Law whilst Jesus in the New Testament says that He has come to make a new covenant??? You should read the prologue in John’s Gospel to see why we are free of the Law and how Jesus is different from Moses.

** There is no new covenat. Jesus was in much difficulty. He could not tell all to his followers and disappeared from the scene in a hurry lest the Jews catch him again.

He himself said that he had many things to say to his people. But the people could not bear it then.
So it is certain that Moses did not complete the mission and went away leaving things for a later time. Jesus also went away leaving things for the next man to complete. And Jesus even promised and told his people that the one who will come will lead people to all truth. For whatever he shal hear that shall he speak.

I wonder that that the ghost speaks too. And the holy spirit hears too. While Holy spirit is considered a God (or part of God), how come he hears things and hears from who? These are all the church mysteries.**

 

[Angelos]

You are entering the wrong field now. You may be asked to explain why Mary gave birth to Jesus at the age of 12… And Jesus having an affair with a previously very wicked woman named Magd… Even having a son from her… Please see the Da Vinci Code. The cemetary of Jesus family has recently been discovered where the son of Jesus is said to be buried. You should restrain your self from going into idle talk.

Mary did NOT give birth to Jesus at the age of 12. Jesus did NOT have an affair with Mary Magdalene. The Da Vinci Code is no historic document on Christianity. This is where you make mistakes: you consider everything said about Christianity accurate and reliable without asking for evidence. This is why it is actually YOU who should restrain oneself from going into idle talk.

That marriage of the prophet to Zainab was necessary to prove the real status of son. An adopted son is not after all a real son. So is Jesus not any type of son of God. He is not even an adopted son of God.
That marriage was necessary to disprove the sonship business of Jesus with God. Indirectly it had a serious link with the wrong thinking of people about the son and the father in the christian world forever,

The marriage to the adopted son proved that there is no adopted or so called son at all. So it has given a good lesson that Jesus cannot be the son of God in any way.

I guess you are the ONLY Muslim that can make associations between Mohammad’s marriage with his son’s bride and the basic Christian tenet about Jesus’ being the Son of God. However, your Koran does not support that false association because it knows better than you that Christians believed Jesus to be the only Son of God. More, the Koran says Allah would adopt one of His creatures if He really wanted to take Himself a son. You somehow ignore these verses in your scripture or do not study your lesson well.

Why did Allah need Mohammad’s marriage to state that adopted son is not the same as physical son? The answer: Mohammad wanted it so.

My question: Why did Allah NOT let Muslim men marry Mohammad’s wives after his death so as to prove that spiritual motherhood was not the same as physical motherhood? The answer: Mohammad did not want it so. I can but reach the conclusion that your Allah is the same person as Mohammad.

But the church is bent upon proving that Jesus (and only Jesus) is the begotten son of God. How come? Every one knows the meaning of the begotten. If not then see the first few lines of mathew. It says “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob. Jacob begat…”

So please see how could God beget Jesus as per use of the word Begat in the bible NT? It is simply not possible. Once you have solved that riddle then please come to me complaining about the marraige of the prophet with the ex wife of his adopted son.

There are other fallacies involved in your post that the prophet tried to have Zainab divorced so that he could marry her. That is a blunt lie.

You should renew your arguments, dear planten, otherwise your stale remarks will make many people sick here.

 

[planten]

sorry. i read the entire chapter and those passages you gave (are they called ayas?) clearly show that they are for a time of war. the passages about not taking jews or christians for friends (or guardians as you say) does not mention anything about war. i see how you implied it, but even that is still a pretty bad command to NEVER allow your self to work together with us in a time of war. if you were my neighbor and some mob came in and decided they wanted to take over our block i would hope and pray we could put aside our differences to work together to stop this mob from wiping us all out. do you agree?

That is not war. Some one coming to hurt you is not a case of war. Thanks and forget all.

so long story short, i give passage that is not so nice. you say it is from time of war. i read whole chapter and clearly see how some are for all time (like the hand to be chopped off) and how those particular verses (the ones that actually say during war) are clearly for a time during war.

i just didn’t see how you pointing out the ones that clearly denoted time during war had anything to do with what i had said so i thought they were randomly thrown in to get me to stop mischief! i am aware that muslims are taught not to press issues that they don’t understand, yet to me that’s the only way to learn. i am scared that my pressing of these issues will be seen as making mischief.

There is no need for me to repeat what I had said before. Thanks.

anyway when mohammed meant during war, he stated it.

notice how he did not say in times of war is the only time to chop off the hands of thieves, so i don’t think the whole do not take us as friends passage is for war time either

.

Not so important problems, not well understood.

what does mischief mean? can war be waged on islam with words?

Yes, it could be by abuse. Normally, with weapons. But in any way that some one tries to oppose Islam or tries to prove that it is a false religion, that is takenj as an attack on Islam. The person doing such thing will be taken as a kafir and willbe dealt with as for kafirs.

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

** That is correct. That would be an attack on Islam and the Prophet. So they could be punished severely.**

that is a shame you won’t read links. i will copy and paste a bit for you.

That is not a shame. It is a shame on you to run to the obscure links. It means you have nothing with yourself.

from islamicity a very PRO islam site:

There was no need to open the Wali chapter again. Bye.

i think we can both agree that this is quite confusing as there are too many contradictions in quran. quran is supposed to be clear and easy to read for anyone.

you say to ignore hadith when it contradicts quran.

what do you do if quran contradicts itself?

**There are no contradictions in the Quran. For that please use a separate thread. Then I will bring out the contradictions of the bible too. Please mind it. There are plenty of contradictions and mystries in the bible. **

Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75]. :doh2:

That is why you need to use your head. Wali has some few meanings. Matter has been explaine dto youin detail before. There is no need to go into again now. Thanks.

 

[planten]

Regarding war, who was fighting the Caliphs who conquered so many lands?

The attack came from the christians (Kaisar was the big one). That was from the west. The Caliph had to gather his forces to retaliate. That started the business. It continued because there was no pact for peace, unitl, the king Kaisar fled the country and lived in exile.

 

[cathopologist]

You are entering the wrong field now. You may be asked to explain why Mary gave birth to Jesus at the age of 12… And Jesus having an affair with a previously very wicked woman named Magd… Even having a son from her… Please see the Da Vinci Code. The cemetary of Jesus family has recently been discovered where the son of Jesus is said to be buried. You should restrain your self from going into idle talk.

I won’t ask you to explain any of the above charges.

Stop reading fictional books and giving “evidence” as though it were true. You also need not rely too much on the Discovery Channel or History Channel for “historical facts”. They produce documentaries to be purposely controversial. You know, controversy sells? Remember the Satanic Verses?

Cemetery of Jesus’ family…
I thought the Muslim claim of Jesus’ burial site is both Japan and Pakistan?
By the way, Mohammad did not “ascend to heaven” from the Dome of the Rock. He may have been buried within the walls of Mecca. Do you think the Muslim world would allow archeologists to probe the insides of the Kaa’ba as they did with the Church of Holy Sepulchre? Islam has nothing to hide, right?

 

[dzheremi]

**Your post is reasonable. I also do not defend the practice of the majority Muslims of today. I have grand differences with their interpretation of Islamic ideology. But you know one man or a few cannot face the multitude. Yet I stick to what I know about Islam.

If I tell it here, the christian friends deny it and try to tell me whatever is being believed by the majority muslims and being practiced in Muslim states. I am not responsible for that.

I do not support whatever they are doing. To me they are doing against Islam. But those things can be taken one at a time and can be discussed. But will you believe me? I hope not.

So in return, I present to you what bad things are going in the predominant christian countries. Then you disown them. The best course is to forget what Muslims and christians of today are doing. It is better to go to the basics and discuss the matters sensibly and honestly from each others scripture only.

I know that muslims are entirely wrong on many major counts. But I also know that christians are not walking on the path of Jesus, so much so that if ever Jesus appeared on earth today, he would not be able to recognise his own people, his own followers. Peace.**

I will have to disagree as politely as I can once again, Planten. Within my sect, there is no such valid doctrine as “solo scriptura” (scripture only) - this is the doctrine of other Christians, but not the Catholics such as myself. So I cannot accept to only go back to the scriptures, forgetting all of church history (the good and the bad), forgetting the traditions of the fathers and the teachings of the church. I recognize why this might seem very appealing, when we both see so many people in our respective religions acting in repugnant ways, but what is most appealing is not always what is right, or in this case even what is possible. No religion can exist in a vacuum. If Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or any religion is to be alive, it must be so through the action of its living, imperfect believers. We will make mistakes, some very grave, but I would rather stumble and be picked up by my fellow co-religionists than to just look at the state of the faith and say “I wash my hands of this and retreat into purely intellectual exercise!” Such exercises are important, but so is facing what you have before you, and trying to change it for the better. You can’t do that if you refuse to see it.

As for what is going on in the “Christian” countries that you find so objectionable, I feel that there is some fundamental misunderstanding on your part that I am not sure how to overcome. Myself and others have explained the fallacy of equating what goes on in the (nominally) Christian west with what goes on in the Islamic countries, yet it is you who disowns this. There is simply no comparison between England and the Islamic countries, even if the Queen is the head of the church and the state. All western countries are thoroughly secular in the letter and application of their laws; many Muslim countries are not. As I understand it (please correct me if I’m wrong), there cannot be any such separation between religion and goverment for the Islamic countries, as it violates the Qur’an.

While I agree that there many Christians who are not walking in the footsteps of Christ, it saddens me to read that you think he would not recognize us. More than likely, those of us who discard his teachings would not recognize him, not the other way around. God is with us always, and invites us back to him when we fall away through sin. God cannot fail to recognize us, for it is He who created us and sustains us.

Peace to you too, Planten. Thank you for continuing to share your thoughts with us, even though we do not agree on many points.

 

[Angelos]

It is associated with friendship. But the translation makes such a big difference for which you have basis for such a hue and cry. So forget about “Friends”. Use the words allies " O Muslims, do not take teh jews and the christians as your Allies". It is even true today. What do you say? Surprisingly.

You are repeating your theories without answering my question. I still wonder why so many Muslims insist on translating the word as “friends”. You are also contradicting yourself by claiming that the verse in the Koran is true even today. If that claim is true, this means the commandment was for all times, not for specific times of war during Mohammad’s life! Thanks for proving my point.

It is not necessary. The verse was advising the Muslims of that time who were under threat of war, even actual war.

Yet the authors of the Koran forgot to add that significant piece of information while devising that commandment. You think I should start blaming Mohammad’s scribes instead of debunking your theories?

You know that the books with protestants are different. There is no original text of the bible available. Only translations are available. You have many sects, including the recently sprouted few sects like the mormons and Jehovas Witnesses.

You first talked about the Bible, and I debunked your theories. Now you are trying something else with the help of irrelevance and bringing up the problem of translations. All Muslims do not have the same translation either, dear planten. You are evidently not pleased with the translation of the word Wali as friends!

Besides, Islam has many sects and denominations too. The presumption that all different sects of Christianity write and use a different Bible is incorrect as well as irrational.

You last para above is a total misconception. The Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad by Allah through the agency of the angel Gabriel. If you say such bad things then I would say the writers of the bible sat down and cooked up some stories about a non existent person (Jesus).

What if I refute that Allah spoke to Mohammad through Gabriel? Islam has no witness to prove that its teachings are at least historically true. You are free to say about my Bible whatever you wish.

There are not just a few things in the Quran about Jesus. There is much more about him and his mother and grand mother too. But what have you got in your bible except that the some ancestors of Jesus were illegally born. It is a shame.

There is almost nothing in the Koran about Jesus in comparison to the data about Moses. What do you mean by saying our Bible teaches that Jesus’ ancestors were illegally born? Would you please cite reference from the NT? What does the Koran teach about some of Jesus’ ancestors? Where is Jesus’ genealogy in the Koran? Where is Mohammad’s genealogy in the Koran? What do you know about Mohammad’s ancestors and parents apart from the historic fact that they were pagans?

I don’t say that and my religious book also does not say it. It gives good reognition to the initial faith of the Jews and the christians and gives quite a good true history of what they had been doing. It calls them people of the books. It says that they should follow their religion. What else do you want? The problem is that church has lost hold on the public and unable to control their own people.

What a contradictory and dishonest answer indeed! Your need to use the qualifier “initial” before the word “faith” gives you away. I said Muslims believed the former revelations to be corrupted. Can you honestly deny this?

You are trying to run away now, disowning some of the most important persons of the earlier faiths.

If this is all you can say in response to my post, this means you are trying to evade me.

So did Jesus, came many hundred years after Moses and other prophets. He was a prophet of God under the command of Moses a.s. A sub ordinate prophet only, without any new code (law). A prophet to the Israelis only. He came exactly after 1400 years after Moses. Why did he take up so much time?

Your arguments are not true and therefore not worth a reply. We never believe that Jesus was a subordinate prophet without any new code. Be sure that every time you struggle to answer my questions with the help of your Islamic tenets, you will be like a man walking on the running band that thinks he goes a long distance in a short time. This is simply because I do not believe in Islam teaches about Jesus. So simple

Muhammad was foretold by Moses and Jesus both. He acted exactly like Jesus in makkah when there was great opposition and persecution. But he did not disappear like Jesus (within 3 years) because Jesus had said that the parclete will lead the people to all truth. That is what Muhammad did.
Muhammad acted like Moses with powerful command over his followers while in Madinah, and so on,

Mohammad’s prediction by Moses and Jesus is a lie. Muslims can never insert Mohammad into the text of the Old and New Testament no matter how many efforts they make. They are doomed to failure.

Why the need to restrict your similarities to the two periods in Mohammad’s time? Whom did Mohammad act like when he was a new-born baby or an infant? David, Abraham, Job, Jonah?

But you need the OT and that is why you have got your NT tied up with the old winesack (OT). Jesus had forbidden it. He said “Do not put new wine in old winesacks. It is not wise. The old winesacks will burst”… But you do not care what Jesus said.

To cover your weakness, you have got the NT tied up with the OT even though you do not follow any law of the OT.

We actually listen to Jesus and say that Jesus came to establish a new covenant. This is why we are not under the Mosaic Law. Jesus meant that His followers would not be bound by the same Law applied to the Jews when he said new wine must be poured into new wineskins, which you unfortunately fail to understand.

There is no new covenat. Jesus was in much difficulty. He could not tell all to his followers and disappeared from the scene in a hurry lest the Jews catch him again.

This is YOUR personal version of the NT, which makes less sense to me than your Koran. I must invite you to honesty again.

He himself said that he had many things to say to his people. But the people could not bear it then.
So it is certain that Moses did not complete the mission and went away leaving things for a later time. Jesus also went away leaving things for the next man to complete. And Jesus even promised and told his people that the one who will come will lead people to all truth. For whatever he shal hear that shall he speak.

Jesus also said that the One to come would be with Christians forever and that He was IN the apostles. Was Mohammad not a human, but a Spirit? Did I miss something?

You are slandering Jesus when you say that He could not complete His mission. This is absolute nonsense. Jesus returned to His apostles and commissioned them after His resurrection. Your NT version somehow lacks that section. Buy a new one

I wonder that that the ghost speaks too. And the holy spirit hears too. While Holy spirit is considered a God (or part of God), how come he hears things and hears from who? These are all the church mysteries.

Your ability to misunderstand our apparent tenets is a mystery beyond me!

The Holy Spirit lives and hears and teaches, rules… Why so surprised? Do you think the Spirit of God must ask you for permission before acting? If so, keep waiting

 

[dzheremi]

I have addressed this in some other thread (can’t remember where), but the idea about some “original version” of the Bible that is in one language that we should all read if we want to truly follow our scriptures is really silly. The Bible was NOT written in one language, so OF COURSE there are translations, because not all Christians can speak Greek, Aramaic, AND Hebrew! These ARE the original languages that the Bible was written in! With respect, Planten, this is not a good way to address the Bible, as it was not revealed in large chunks to ONE man in ONE language in the way of the Qur’an.

Whether or not that makes the Bible more or less authentic to you is your perogative, but please stop repeating this argument as though it is meaningful. It makes about as much sense as saying that the Qur’an is not from God because we all know God would have reallyyy revealed his message in English only…

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Please see the Da Vinci Code…

So, the bible is wrong, and the Da Vinci Code is right.

I think you should see The Beauty and The Beast.

 

[ralphinal]

If Muslims cannot be allies with Christians in times of war, can we deduce that all Muslims are against the US against al Quida? Therefore, should we not just wipe Islam off the map?

or

Am I missing something

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… There are no contradictions in the Quran. For that please use a separate thread. Then I will bring out the contradictions of the bible too…

I don’t think it’s a good idea to start a thread about the Qur’an, just so you can talk about the bible. That sounds too confusing.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

** Isa Almisry, It is not my duty to prove that the head of state of the christian countries do it on the basis of the bible.**

If you are making the accusation, yes it is.

Yet they do it. I remember the Queen of Britian signing the homosexual act. She is the head of the church there. You cannot disown her anyway…

If true, you have a point. Btw, the UK has only civil partnerships.

Another reason to reject Anglicanism (the list is quite large, btw).

There is no need. Such things are far and few. Not on a large scale as in christian dominated countries. And you do not take any responsibilty…

As, I’ve stated, I’ve lived in the Muslim world and traveled over a large chunk of it. Not far and few between at all.

** No need for my reply. Matter is not understood and not important.**

Matter not understood but sure it’s not important?

Physician, heal thyself.

You are entering the wrong field now. You may be asked to explain why Mary gave birth to Jesus at the age of 12.

Is there something to explain?

… And Jesus having an affair with a previously very wicked woman named Magd… Even having a son from her… Please see the Da Vinci Code.

Btw, read his “Angels and Demons” for his ideas on Islam.

Well, the Da Vinci Code. Now we know the quality of your sources, and what stock to put into your statements. Btw, he says a daughter, not a son. Can’t even get that right?

The cemetary of Jesus family has recently been discovered where the son of Jesus is said to be buried. You should restrain your self from going into idle talk.

Yes I saw the Discovery Channel too. No, I wasn’t impressed by his “reasoning.” Btw, the platina he based his “findings” on has been proven a forgery. The man is standing trial for it. And the idea of genetic testing for husband and wife. You can’t test DNA for relationship of marriage. Duh.

I won’t ask you to explain any of the above charges.

Dribble. There, explained.

** That marriage of the prophet to Zainab was necessary to prove the real status of son.**

I see. So he have to prove that by consummation.

An adopted son is not after all a real son.

I’ve seen plenty of adopted sons who are more real than biological.

So is Jesus not any type of son of God. He is not even an adopted son of God.

Because Muhammad broke up his son’s marriage to marry his daughter in law? And you wonder why Christians have a poor opinion on Islam and its prophet?

That marriage was necessary to disprove the sonship business of Jesus with God. Indirectly it had a serious link with the wrong thinking of people about the son and the father in the christian world forever,

Only for those sick enough to follow such “logic.”

The marriage to the adopted son proved that there is no adopted or so called son at all

.

All it proved is the “morality” of Muhammad.

So it has given a good lesson that Jesus cannot be the son of God in any way.

A good lesson why the teaching of Christ on marriage is far superior to Muhammad’s.

But the church is bent upon proving that Jesus (and only Jesus) is the begotten son of God. How come? Every one knows the meaning of the begotten. If not then see the first few lines of mathew. It says “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat Jacob. Jacob begat…”

Man begets man, God begets God. Your point?

So please see how could God beget Jesus as per use of the word Begat in the bible NT? It is simply not possible.

In Arabic (do you speak it?) walada means “he begot,” the feminine waladat means “she gave birth.” Same in Hebrew. Why the “different” meaning? The nature of the matter. Same difference between man begetting and God begetting, although the same word used.

The Quran says God sees and hears: does He have eyes and ears?

Once you have solved that riddle then please come to me complaining about the marraige of the prophet with the ex wife of his adopted son.

Debauchery.

There are other fallacies involved in your post that the prophet tried to have Zainab divorced so that he could marry her. That is a blunt lie.

Then why did you just say “marriage of the prophet with the EX wife of his adopted son.” Are you saying she was still married when Muhammad her? Christ says the same thing (Mark 10;12 ).

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You know that the books with protestants are different. There is no original text of the bible available. Only translations are available. You have many sects, including the recently sprouted few sects like the mormons and Jehovas Witnesses.

You have quite a few sects yourselves, including ones that say Muhammad is God (one that says that, the Alawis, is running Syria now). According to your own tradition, you have 73 sects.

Oh, and btw, there’s no original text of the Quran either.

You last para above is a total misconception. The Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad by Allah through the agency of the angel Gabriel.

There is plenty more in the Bible about Jesus and His mother and ancestors. That you make such a statement is a shame. It also shows your disingenious interest in what the Bible says.

** I don’t say that and my religious book also does not say it. **

We freely admit to the facts. A difference.

It gives good reognition to the initial faith of the Jews and the christians and gives quite a good true history of what they had been doing.

The Quran is utterly a-historical, even for Islam.

It calls them people of the books. It says that they should follow their religion. What else do you want?

Truth.

The problem is that church has lost hold on the public and unable to control their own people.

And Islam has kept its hold on the public and can control its own people? So we CAN hold Islam responsible for the actions of the Muslim governments, etc?

You are trying to run away now, disowning some of the most important persons of the earlier faiths.

Here I have to disagree with the OP: Christ Himself says e.g. Abraham saw His day and was glad (John 8:56) , and Moses wrote about Him (John 5:46). Abraham, Moses and all the TRUE Prophets were (or are, God is a God of the Living, not the Dead) Christians.

So did Jesus, came many hundred years after Moses and other prophets. He was a prophet of God under the command of Moses a.s. A sub ordinate prophet only, without any new code (law). A prophet to the Israelis only. He came exactly after 1400 years after Moses. Why did he take up so much time?

Fulness of time, a way prepared. Actually, He came with a New Covenant, fulfilling the Old, and a New Commandment, fulfilling all the Old.

Muhammad was foretold by Moses and Jesus both.

Where?

The Jews don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah, so they are still waiting.

You claim that Jesus told us to wait for Muhammad. But we aren’t waiting for anyone. Why not? Jesus never foretold any prophet to come, unlike Moses who did.

He acted exactly like Jesus in makkah when there was great opposition and persecution. But he did not disappear like Jesus (within 3 years)

No, he ran off. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

because Jesus had said that the parclete will lead the people to all truth.

And He did when He came at Pentacost on the ones to whom Christ said that.

That is what Muhammad did.

By claiming to fulfill Moses and Jesus while contradicting them?

Muhammad acted like Moses with powerful command over his followers while in Madinah, and so on,

Compare Moses meekness in Numbers 12:3, and the aggrandizement of Muhammad in the Quran (not being limited to the 4 wives, taking a fifth of the booty, etc.)

Not understood…

That’s painfully understood.

** But you need the OT and that is why you have got your NT tied up with the old winesack (OT). Jesus had forbidden it. He said “Do not put new wine in old winesacks. It is not wise. The old winesacks will burst”… But you do not care what Jesus said.**

I’ve already answered that.

No, new wine in new sack, drinking the Old out of the old wine sack (Luke 5:38-9) That is why every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like the master of a household who brings both new and old things out of his treasure chest." Mathew 13:52.

The law is fulfilled. We follow ALL the OT. You follow neither OT nor NT, but you imitate both. Sorry, we accept no imitation.

** There is no new covenat. Jesus was in much difficulty. He could not tell all to his followers and disappeared from the scene in a hurry lest the Jews catch him again.**

Uh, they killed Him (btw, let me make it clear by this I mean that the authorites, Jewish and Roman killed Him, and the Apostles were complicent in running away. Actually all sinners, i.e. all of us, killed Him by making the death necessary). And yes by His death and Resurrection, Ascension, Sitting on the Right Hand and Sending down the Holy Spirit, He establishe the New Covenant. Btw, He didn’t disappear: He’s on every Catholic altar in the world.

He himself said that he had many things to say to his people. But the people could not bear it then.

That’s why He established His Body, the Church.

So it is certain that Moses did not complete the mission and went away leaving things for a later time.

yes, and he said so.

Jesus also went away leaving things for the next man to complete.

He said from the Cross, “It is finished.”

And Jesus even promised and told his people that the one who will come will lead people to all truth. For whatever he shal hear that shall he speak.

yes, the Holy Spirit came down on those who He promised this to, and they were given power to give the same Holy Spirit (in chrismation/confirmation, which is the personal Pentacost of every Christian).

I wonder that that the ghost speaks too. And the holy spirit hears too. While Holy spirit is considered a God (or part of God), how come he hears things and hears from who? These are all the church mysteries.

The Fathers say, a God is understood cannot be God. How can the finite mind of man understand the inifite God. Islam has reduced God to mathematical formula.

The Spirit is neither a God, nor part of God. He is THE GOD, ALLAH in Arabic.

As to your final question: throughout the Quran, God says “We this” and “We that.” Who is “WE?”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Why did Allah need Mohammad’s marriage to state that adopted son is not the same as physical son? The answer: Mohammad wanted it so.

My question: Why did Allah NOT let Muslim men marry Mohammad’s wives after his death so as to prove that spiritual motherhood was not the same as physical motherhood? The answer: Mohammad did not want it so. I can but reach the conclusion that your Allah is the same person as Mohammad.

[SIGN]GAME POINT![/SIGN]

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Yes, it could be by abuse. Normally, with weapons. But in any way that some one tries to oppose Islam or tries to prove that it is a false religion, that is takenj as an attack on Islam. The person doing such thing will be taken as a kafir and willbe dealt with as for kafirs.

** That is correct. That would be an attack on Islam and the Prophet. So they could be punished severely.**

The Quran says that Jesus is not the Son of God

Muhammad says that Jesus is not the Son of God

Islam says Jesus is not the Son of God

Christ says He is the Son of God

The Apostles say Jesus is the Sod of God

The Church says Jesus is the Son of God

The Bible says Jesus is the Son of God.

Either He is or He isn’t.

Jesus said “I AM” (John 8:58).

So a Christian has a choice.

They can choose to take Christ, His Apostles, His Church, and His Bible at His word.

Or they can believe Muhammd, his Quran and his Islam.

If they pick the former then they must say that Muhammad lies, his Quran is a lie, and Isalm is false.

If they pick the latter, they should say shahadah.

You can call me a kafir, and act accordingly, but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.

There are no contradictions in the Quran.

That’s Three for the Most Holy Trinity.

Just for one, how is it that the Quran claims to be eternal and well preserved (85:21-2), and then turns around and says that Allah abrogates (naskh and mansukh) verses to replace them with better ones? (Q 2:106)

For that please use a separate thread. Then I will bring out the contradictions of the bible too. Please mind it. There are plenty of contradictions and mystries in the bible.

Mysteries yes. Contraditions, no.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The attack came from the christians (Kaisar was the big one). That was from the west. The Caliph had to gather his forces to retaliate. That started the business. It continued because there was no pact for peace, unitl, the king Kaisar fled the country and lived in exile.

From your statements, it is clear that you are depending on Muslim hagiography.

For those who have history, Tabuk was in the territory of the Empire of the Romans, and their allies the Ghassanides. Muhammad invaded. Caesar (what our friend is using is the mispelling of QaySar, the Arabic form) went back to New Rome, his capital, after losing the provinces. Hardly exile.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Stop reading fictional books and giving “evidence” as though it were true. You also need not rely too much on the Discovery Channel or History Channel for “historical facts”. They produce documentaries to be purposely controversial. You know, controversy sells? Remember the Satanic Verses?

Only difference is that the Satanic Verses is a story Muslim, not non-Muslims, came up with.

Cemetery of Jesus’ family…
I thought the Muslim claim of Jesus’ burial site is both Japan and Pakistan?
By the way, Mohammad did not “ascend to heaven” from the Dome of the Rock. He may have been buried within the walls of Mecca. Do you think the Muslim world would allow archeologists to probe the insides of the Kaa’ba as they did with the Church of Holy Sepulchre? Islam has nothing to hide, right?

Actually, Muhammad is buried in Medinah, not Meccah.

The Kaaba is empty now. It wasn’t when Muhammad took it over. According to MUSLIM historians and traditionalists, Muhammad covered an icon of the Theotokos and the Christ child with his body and told the Muslims to destroy everything else in it (idols). The icon, and one of Abraham sacrificing Isaac (the early Muslim sources name Isaac, not Ishmael, the Quran is characteristically vaugue without names) stayed. It can be assumed that they were destroyed when the muslims destroyed their own sanctuary in their second Civil War.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I will have to disagree as politely as I can once again, Planten. Within my sect, there is no such valid doctrine as “solo scriptura” (scripture only) - this is the doctrine of other Christians, but not the Catholics such as myself. So I cannot accept to only go back to the scriptures, forgetting all of church history (the good and the bad), forgetting the traditions of the fathers and the teachings of the church. I recognize why this might seem very appealing, when we both see so many people in our respective religions acting in repugnant ways, but what is most appealing is not always what is right, or in this case even what is possible. No religion can exist in a vacuum. If Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or any religion is to be alive, it must be so through the action of its living, imperfect believers. We will make mistakes, some very grave, but I would rather stumble and be picked up by my fellow co-religionists than to just look at the state of the faith and say “I wash my hands of this and retreat into purely intellectual exercise!” Such exercises are important, but so is facing what you have before you, and trying to change it for the better. You can’t do that if you refuse to see it.

As for what is going on in the “Christian” countries that you find so objectionable, I feel that there is some fundamental misunderstanding on your part that I am not sure how to overcome. Myself and others have explained the fallacy of equating what goes on in the (nominally) Christian west with what goes on in the Islamic countries, yet it is you who disowns this. There is simply no comparison between England and the Islamic countries, even if the Queen is the head of the church and the state. All western countries are thoroughly secular in the letter and application of their laws; many Muslim countries are not. As I understand it (please correct me if I’m wrong), there cannot be any such separation between religion and goverment for the Islamic countries, as it violates the Qur’an.

yes, we have that problem of rendering under to caesar what is caesar’s, and that, unlike the Dar al-Islam, Our Lord’s Kingdom is not of this world.