Missionaries to muslims

[Isa_Almisry]

I have addressed this in some other thread (can’t remember where), but the idea about some “original version” of the Bible that is in one language that we should all read if we want to truly follow our scriptures is really silly. The Bible was NOT written in one language, so OF COURSE there are translations, because not all Christians can speak Greek, Aramaic, AND Hebrew! These ARE the original languages that the Bible was written in! With respect, Planten, this is not a good way to address the Bible, as it was not revealed in large chunks to ONE man in ONE language in the way of the Qur’an.

Whether or not that makes the Bible more or less authentic to you is your perogative, but please stop repeating this argument as though it is meaningful. It makes about as much sense as saying that the Qur’an is not from God because we all know God would have reallyyy revealed his message in English only…

The fact is that the Bible was originally in three languages. The fact is that it has been given to all nations with multiple translations. The fact is that there are thousands of copies of the mansucripts, of various sects. And yet when you compare them all, the fact is is that they differences are in main negligible, and those that are not (e.g. the Jews insisting the Masoretic 'almah means “young girl,” not virgin as the pre-Christian LXX “parthenos” definitely does, btw, the Quran agrees with the LXX. Note I said, “agrees,” not “confirms”) are easy to explane.

According to the Muslims themselves, the caliph gathered the Quran in one edition, made into 4 copies, and then ordered the rest to BE DESTOYED. And yet the Quran has at least 7 (or 10, or 14 depending on who you ask) recensions of the Quran, not to mention the varients that were destroyed (you can see them in Jeffrey, Material for the History of the of the Text of the Quran, based on Muslim sources
answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Materials/index.htm
Now we find early copies of the text in the mosque of Sanaa in Yemen, in rock inscriptions, on the Dome of the Rock, etc and no, they do not match. Most of the differences are also negligible, but the Muslims claim no letter has changed.

So the Bible, from scattered sources is basically one, whereas the Quran, allegedly from one source (and in one language, early translations also show more differences) is not uniform.

Hmm.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

There is almost nothing in the Koran about Jesus in comparison to the data about Moses. What do you mean by saying our Bible teaches that Jesus’ ancestors were illegally born? Would you please cite reference from the NT? What does the Koran teach about some of Jesus’ ancestors? Where is Jesus’ genealogy in the Koran? Where is Mohammad’s genealogy in the Koran? What do you know about Mohammad’s ancestors and parents apart from the historic fact that they were pagans?

I think at least he is refering to David and Bathsheba. But if he looks at the Muslim sources on the circumstances of Muhammad’s conception and birth and upbringing, he might think twice before bringing that up. If for nothing else, he claims descent from Ishmael, the surrogate mother’s son.

 

[inJESUS]

Does anyone see a problem with the following verse:

And We have sent no Messenger save with the tongue of his people,that he might make all clear to them…S. 14:4

maybe Muslims build their claims on the above odd verse.

 

[Angelos]

I think at least he is refering to David and Bathsheba. But if he looks at the Muslim sources on the circumstances of Muhammad’s conception and birth and upbringing, he might think twice before bringing that up. If for nothing else, he claims descent from Ishmael, the surrogate mother’s son.

If that’s true, planten will have difficulty explaining why the Koran presents David - one of Allah’s messengers with a revelation - a sinner and adulterer. Jesus is the Lord and Savior of all, and it is natural for some people in Jesus’ genealogy to be sinners or illegitimate offspring. The existence of those people in the genealogy by no means changes the facts that Jesus was conceived by the power of God’s Spirit and fulfilled the promises given to Abraham and David, His ancestors.

 

[Angelos]

maybe Muslims build their claims on the above odd verse.

This claim is actually the source of many theological and linguistic problems for the Islamic Scripture. The verse quoted by you apparently denies the fact that Jonah was a prophet sent to another nation than his own.

Mohammad, according to the Koran, was the final messenger sent to all nations with a book in Arabic so that no one apart from Arabs can understand! (I know this sounds like a joke).

People who are interested in the problems provided by that verse quoted by inJESUS, may go to the link below for further information:

answering-islam.org/Quran/Incoherence/messenger_language.html

 

[inJESUS]

This claim is actually the source of many theological and linguistic problems for the Islamic Scripture. The verse quoted by you apparently denies the fact that Jonah was a prophet sent to another nation than his own.

but the Quran says Jonah was sent to another nation…

Mohammad, according to the Koran, was the final messenger sent to all nations with a book in Arabic so that no one apart from Arabs can understand! (I know this sounds like a joke).

 

[planten]

If that’s true, planten will have difficulty explaining why the Koran presents David - one of Allah’s messengers with a revelation - a sinner and adulterer. Jesus is the Lord and Savior of all, and it is natural for some people in Jesus’ genealogy to be sinners or illegitimate offspring. The existence of those people in the genealogy by no means changes the facts that Jesus was conceived by the power of God’s Spirit and fulfilled the promises given to Abraham and David, His ancestors.

**I have no difficulty in explaining anything from the Quran because Quran is not blaming any prophet of God. There is nothing bad in the Quran about David or Soloman. But you people have struck some prophets off the list and you are just following your bad wishes and trying to disown some of them.

Why the bad people in the geneology of Jesus will not affect him? Perhaps you hope that it will not affect his father (Jospeh) too. There is much more to it than what you know.

Perhaps you do not care if a person is born from legal marriage or illegal sex. If it is so then please tell me. I will not bother you.**

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**I have no difficulty in explaining anything from the Quran because Quran is not blaming any prophet of God. There is nothing bad in the Quran about David or Soloman. But you people have struck some prophets off the list and you are just following your bad wishes and trying to disown some of them.

Why the bad people in the geneology of Jesus will not affect him? Perhaps you hope that it will not affect his father (Jospeh) too. There is much more to it than what you know.

Perhaps you do not care if a person is born from legal marriage or illegal sex. If it is so then please tell me. I will not bother you.**

Finally gotten off the Sex slave, huh Paten?

We haven’t struck David, Solomon or any body from the prophets. We learn from their mistakes. We just won’t add your porphet to their list.

Tell us Patten, how do the sins of the fathers are visted on the children? I thought you muslims don’t believe in original sin.

 

[Angelos]

I have no difficulty in explaining anything from the Quran because Quran is not blaming any prophet of God. There is nothing bad in the Quran about David or Soloman. But you people have struck some prophets off the list and you are just following your bad wishes and trying to disown some of them.

Actually, you can explain nothing from the Koran because it teaches you almost nothing about the prophets by pruning and distorting the truth taught about them in the Bible.

The Koran says David became a sinner because of following his desire and asked for forgiveness (Surah 38: 21-26). Your Koran version might lack some pages or this specific Surah though.

**
Why the bad people in the geneology of Jesus will not affect him? Perhaps you hope that it will not affect his father (Jospeh) too. There is much more to it than what you know.**

Joseph was NOT Jesus’ biological father. Jesus was an individual like other people in His genealogy.

Would you please share with me what you allegedly know about this issue? I am still waiting for you to show me Jesus’ genealogy in the Koran to prove that all of the people on that list were sinless and perfect.

The same goes for Mohammad. History says Mohammad was the offspring of pagans and sinful people. Can you say this affects his life and claims for being the final messenger?

**
Perhaps you do not care if a person is born from legal marriage or illegal sex. If it is so then please tell me. I will not bother you.**

Jesus was miraculously conceived as a result of the divine promise. Since Jesus is my Savior, I do not care about the birth stories or characteristics of other people on the list of Jesus’ genealogy. He is the beginning of the period of redemption and grace.

You never bother me, dear planten. I only do not want to shake your faith in Islam. Your hatred and prejudice would never make you a Christian, but a devoted atheist if you left your religion.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Actually, you can explain nothing from the Koran because it teaches you almost nothing about the prophets by pruning and distorting the truth taught about them in the Bible.

The Koran says David became a sinner because of following his desire and asked for forgiveness (Surah 38: 21-26). Your Koran version might lack some pages or this specific Surah though.

Maybe Allah has abrogated that verse.

Joseph was NOT Jesus’ biological father. Jesus was an individual like other people in His genealogy.

Sounds like he hasn’t even reading his Quran on that matter, which also affirms (note: not confirms) the Virgin Birth.

Would you please share with me what you allegedly know about this issue? I am still waiting for you to show me Jesus’ genealogy in the Koran to prove that all of the people on that list were sinless and perfect.

The same goes for Mohammad. History says Mohammad was the offspring of pagans and sinful people. Can you say this affects his life and claims for being the final messenger?

Will you stop confusing him with the facts

Jesus was miraculously conceived as a result of the divine promise. Since Jesus is my Savior, I do not care about the birth stories or characteristics of other people on the list of Jesus’ genealogy. He is the beginning of the period of redemption and grace.

You never bother me, dear planten. I only do not want to shake your faith in Islam. Your hatred and prejudice would never make you a Christian, but a devoted atheist if you left your religion.

I don’t know. Maybe Planten one day might set off for Damascus…

 

[Angelos]

Sounds like he hasn’t even reading his Quran on that matter, which also affirms (note: not confirms) the Virgin Birth.

The fact is dear Planten always forgets about his scripture and adopts the atheistic mode of thinking whenever he decides to attack the Bible and Christianity. However, he does not follow this principle while trying to defend his scripture and prove the Islamic claims about Mohammad. One day he debates like an atheist who is ignorant of the Koran, and another day he debates like a Muslim who is ignorant of the Bible and Christian tenets. Not consistent

I don’t know. Maybe Planten one day might set off for Damascus…

We should pray for the best option.