Missouri Synod Lutherans?

[cklockner]

Stylteralmaldo:

Perhaps Catholics and Lutherans aren’t that far off from unity. We too throw ourselves at the Mercy of Christ. Catholics also agree that faith must produce good works or it is a dead faith. Catholics certainly don’t believe we are saved by works. We believe we are saved by grace - not by works. Your ideas about repenting and forgiveness (confession, eucharist) is similar to Catholic teaching. Hopefully we can bridge the gap of understanding and all become unified in the fullness of Christ’s Church.

When I was in college at Wittenberg University (in Springfield, OH), the pastor there told us that the Lutherans and Catholics had actually reached an agreement on this: something like, we are saved by faith alone, but because we are saved we are called to do good works.
I don’t remember the exact wording now but its along the line of what everyone is saying.

 

[Calvin]

cklockner:

When I was in college at Wittenberg University (in Springfield, OH), the pastor there told us that the Lutherans and Catholics had actually reached an agreement on this: something like, we are saved by faith alone, but because we are saved we are called to do good works.
I don’t remember the exact wording now but its along the line of what everyone is saying.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1345

That was a good day for Christian unity.

-C

 

[RedGolum]

That depends on who you ask. I remember the stir caused by the Joint Declairation of Faith, which the Missouri Synod did not, and could not by its constiution, sign.

I have read the JDF, and it basically restates the Roman Catholic posistion and the posistion of some of the Lutheran churches, and that they are not the same but close. In real terms, it was a symbolic event.

The funny thing is the two Lutheran synods in the US which are closest to the Roman Catholic church in doctrine did not sign the JDF. Both the LCMS and the WELS have strong limits and rules set up regarding contact of churches not in their synods. I myself have ran into trouble with this by talking a bit to freely and publically with RC’s and others.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I have been doing some additional checking on Lutheran beliefs and found that it was very interesting that LCMS and WELS both still see the Catholic Church as anti-christ. A union isn’t possible until this point is reconciled (perhaps union isn’t as close as I originally hoped).

The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) branch is the group that was part of the world federation group. I also understand they are the most liberal and have entered into “unions” with several denominations. If someone knows more accurately than me, please clarify (I got this info off of the WELS official website).

 

[RedGolum]

Stylteralmaldo:

I have been doing some additional checking on Lutheran beliefs and found that it was very interesting that LCMS and WELS both still see the Catholic Church as anti-christ. A union isn’t possible until this point is reconciled (perhaps union isn’t as close as I originally hoped).
).

You are correct that the WELS and LCMS official stance is that the RCC is an anti christ (not THE Anti Christ), but that isn’t quite as bad as it seems. What it means it that they believe the RCC to be in grave error and preaching doctrines that could potentially come between someone and Jesus. The same term can be used to describe the view of the LCMS taken on the Reformed (Calvinist) churches.

It doesn’t mean that the official stance of the LCMS is that the Pope is the devil or anything like that. In the last few decades, the LCMS and the RCC have built many ties and dialouges, the most recent still going on. This is a far cry from 100 years ago when each side was pretty sure the other was doomed to hell.

 

[Malachi4U]

This week on EWTN’s Journey Home program they had another Lutheran who reconciled himself with the RCC and became a priest. GREAT show! Listen to his story!

Malachi4U

 

[matthias]

I actually converted from the LCMS or Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. They are a beautiful church but they do not contain the “fullness of Thuth” available in the Catholic Church.

They most CERTAINLY do not believe exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. I promise you that I would have taken offense to such an “accusation” when I was still a Lutheran and trust me many more “modern” churches made that statement to me when I was still a Lutheran and I DID take offense.

I would love to dialogue with anyone interested in making the journey home. If you have any specific questions message me directly and ask… I’d love to bring anyone and everyone to the fullness of the Catholic faith… including other Catholics, .

 

[BK80734]

The part of the United States in which I live has a pretty large and prominent LCMS population, so I live and work with them on a constant basis. My boss, in fact, is an elder for his Lutheran church who also regularly expresses interest in why Catholics believe what they believe and do what they do. I find this very encouraging, and I often pray that I can be a light for him in finding the truth of our faith.

It’s a cause for hope in terms of Christian reunification that the LCMS churches (around here, at least) seem to share so much in common with the Catholic Church, but sometimes I think being so similar really makes people cling more strongly to the differences.

One quick read I REALLY recommend is the conversion story linked to below, in which a former active LCMS churchgoer describes his journey to the Catholic Church, including a great deal of research on major points of difference (he is a professional journalist, so he researches out of habit). It’s one of the more inspiring stories posted at The Coming Home Network, at least to me (probably because I am an “instinctual researcher” myself!). Hope you find it helpful:
chnetwork.org/journals/justification/justify_1.htm

 

[matthias]

I actually converted from the LCMS or Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. They are a beautiful church but they do not contain the “fullness of Thuth” available in the Catholic Church.

They most CERTAINLY do not believe exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. I promise you that I would have taken offense to such an “accusation” when I was still a Lutheran and trust me many more “modern” churches made that statement to me when I was still a Lutheran and I DID take offense.

I would love to dialogue with anyone interested in making the journey home. If you have any specific questions message me directly and ask… I’d love to bring anyone and everyone to the fullness of the Catholic faith… including other Catholics, .

 

[Wampa]

Stylteralmaldo:

The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) branch is the group that was part of the world federation group. I also understand they are the most liberal and have entered into “unions” with several denominations. If someone knows more accurately than me, please clarify (I got this info off of the WELS official website).

I converted from the ELCA to the Catholic Church recently. Aside from the Catholic/Lutheran agreement mentioned, the ELCA also signed a Full Communion agreement with the Episcopalian Church in 1999. You can find into here. I remember all the debate happening. A group called WordAlone formed to protest the acceptance of the Episcopalian Church’s “historic episcopate — the succession of bishops stretching back to the earliest days of the Christian church” (thelutheran.org/0008/page42.html), which they did accept.

Also, I found this info on other ELCA agreements (from elca.org/ea/Resources/SinceYouAsked.html):

The ELCA is in a relationship of full communion with the other member churches of the Lutheran World Federation. In addition, the ELCA established full communion with the Reformed churches [Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), Reformed Church in America, and United Church of Christ] under A Formula of Agreement in 1997. In 1999, a Lutheran-Moravian relationship of full communion was affirmed. These relationships already have been fruitful for mission in a variety of ways.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada is moving forward for such a relationship with the Anglican Church in Canada. Lutherans in northern and eastern Europe and Anglicans in Great Britain share a similar relationship, within the European context, as a result of the Porvoo Agreement, named for a town in Finland where the agreement was written. The Leuenberg Agreement for Lutheran-Reformed relations in Europe offers another example of such a relationship.

 

[Monarchy]

Melchior:

Lutherans too believe in Baptismal regeneration and the Real presence of Christ in the the Eucharist, though they do define how He is present it differently. They also have private confession and absolution.

Mel

Don’t they call it consubstatiation intead of transsubstatiation (sp)?

 

[Melchior]

Monarchy:

Don’t they call it consubstatiation intead of transsubstatiation (sp)?

They don’t call it consubstantiation. That is term what non-Lutheran Protestants like to use to describe the Lutheran position. But it is not correct. They believe Christ body and blood is truly present with the Bread and wine. Or “In, with and under” the elements. Consubstantiation implies a mingling of the substances. Lutherans believe the physical elements are still bread and wine, yet Christ still physically present in a mystical way.

Mel

 

[Monarchy]

Melchior:

They don’t call it consubstantiation. That is term what non-Lutheran Protestants like to use to describe the Lutheran position. But it is not correct. They believe Christ body and blood is truly present with the Bread and wine. Or “In, with and under” the elements. Consubstantiation implies a mingling of the substances. Lutherans believe the physical elements are still bread and wine, yet Christ still physically present in a mystical way.

Mel

Whearas Catholics believe that the eucharist (sp?) has physicaly changed into the B&B of Jesus, and is no longer Bread and Wine?

Am I correct?

 

[Melchior]

Monarchy:

Whearas Catholics believe that the eucharist (sp?) has physicaly changed into the B&B of Jesus, and is no longer Bread and Wine?

Am I correct?

I believe so!

I am surprised you could understand what I wrote with all the typos.

Mel

 

[JohnSix68]

Hi all! I’ve already learned so much from this site! I was wondering if anyone has any information or advice they can share. I have a Lutheran raised friend who’s currently going through a “reconversion” process and is looking into both the Lutheran and Catholic faith. Her dad (who calls himself a “reformed Catholic”) is currently in a Missouri Synod Lutheran seminary to become a Lutheran pastor. According to her parents, the theology and doctrine of Missouri Synod Lutherans and Catholics is exactly the same except they don’t have the saints and don’t buy people out of Purgatory. Obviously, they are misinformed on the last point, but it made me wonder, what are the main similarities and differences between the two? Does anyone have any references (including websites) that I can provide to my friend to help her make her decision (and come into the True Church)? Thanks!

I highly recommend you get your friend “Luther: The Rest of the Story” lecture on CD.
saintjoe.com/prodinfo.asp?number=8510 it saved me countless hours of assisting my former Lutheran friends in becoming Catholics.
Who was Martin Luther really? What did Luther actually teach? What are the true results of Luther’s violent revolt against the Catholic Church and how do they impact your life and faith today? In this brilliant audio series from St Joseph Communications, Luther: The Rest of the Story, Ken Hensley tackles these questions and many more in an uncompromisingly Catholic presentation on the true teachings of the man who changed the face of Christianity. A former Protestant Pastor, Hensley brings a unique perspective to the critical examination of a man whose doctrines he once held with great devotion.
You’ll discover Luther’s theological, personal and historical background and motivations, from the testimony of his own writings. And follow the tangled web woven by the “Father of the Reformation” from the day he nailed his infamous 95 theses on the door of the Castle Church at Wittenberg to the theological wreckage of modern Protestantism.
This is no inflammatory “tell-all” exposé but an intelligent (and entertaining) investigation into the real-life convictions and contradictions of this controversial figure. It is a serious discussion of Luther from a Catholic perspective that’s insightful, informative and, best of all, suitable to share with Protestant (and fallen-away Catholic) friends and family.

 

[ralphinal]

Whearas Catholics believe that the eucharist (sp?) has physicaly changed into the B&B of Jesus, and is no longer Bread and Wine?

Am I correct?

You are correct. Bread and wine are no longer present. However, no test or sense can detect the change. The accidents (the looks, tastes, etc.) remain as bread and wine, but the substance is no longer bread and wine.

For centuries, the Church did not call it transubstantiation. A definition was needed to combat a heresy or two that Christ was not really present.

 

[Peter_J]

“Luther: The Rest of the Story” lecture on CD.

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[JonNC]

I’m a Catholic that converted from being a Missouri-Synod Lutheran.
I think most of the differences were covered. A Lutheran service is similar to a Catholic service to sit through, except Lutherans do not focus on the Eucharist.

Late past president of the LMCS, Dr. A.L. Barry said that the Eucharist is the center of Lutheran worship. He is correct. If your experience was different, I blame your local pastor, and the governmental issue that was stated elsewhere here. In another thread, I stated that while the LCMS does not teach errors, it allows errors to be taught and practiced.

There is also a distinction (although hard to understand) about how Lutherans view the Eucharist. They believe that Christ is in the substance of the bread of wine while Catholics believe the substance of the bread and wine is Christ completely, only maintaining the appearance of bread and wine.

The best statements on the Eucharist from the Lutheran perspective are:

Apology of the Augsburg Confession

The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament.

and
Smalcald

1] **Of the Sacrament of the Altar we hold that bread and wine in the Supper *are ***the true body and blood of Christ, and are given and received not only by the godly, but also by wicked Christians.

Luther

“However, the error * is very unimportant as long as the body and blood of Christ and the Word are left intact.” “It does not mean much to me, for as I have often declared openly, I do not wish to fight about it; if the wine remains or not, for me it is enough that the blood of Christ is present; may whatever God wills happen to the wine. And rather than to have mere wine with the enthusiasts I would stick to mere blood with the Papists.”*

As for anti-catholic writings and attitudes, Lutherans need only to look to Luther’s description of the eighth commandment in the Small Catechism to understand how we should speak about and act toward our Catholic brothers and sisters:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

Any other attitude is unchristian and unlutheran.
The accusation of antichrist regarding the papacy is 500 years old and should be removed from the confession and condemned.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

As for anti-catholic writings and attitudes, Lutherans need only to look to Luther’s description of the eighth commandment in the Small Catechism to understand how we should speak about and act toward our Catholic brothers and sisters:

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
What does this mean?–Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

Excellent. I would say the very same in regard to any anti-Lutheranism (more generally, anti-Protestantism) among Catholics.

 

[JohnSix68]

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There are many items that don’t have any reviews on Amazon. I can only say that this was an excellent lecture on Luther. I was a Missouri Synod Lutheran for almost twenty years and this lecture implanted doubts in my mind about Lutheranism.This started my journey to the Catholic Church. It also has helped several of my Lutheran friends convert to Catholicism. I am not making any money from any sales on this lecture but it is worth listening to.
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Browse through this site you will find many fine theological teachers sand scholars like Dr. Scott Hahn, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Benedict Groeschel etc. saintjoe.com/
Dave Armstrong also helped me through this Journey. Here’s a dialog I was involved with Dave Armstrong and a couple of Lutheran pastors.
chnetwork.org/forums/forum44/2695.html