Misunderstanding Calvinism?

[halogirl]

I feel like I’ve had the good parts of all the churches but feel like the RCC is the right place for me

 

[ltwin]

I think they’d say that committing a murder shows that he was never truly one of the Elect in the first place.

Not necessarily. Even though you are one of the elect, you still have to experience a process of salvation. Someone could have committed a murder before he was regenerated or converted.

 

[halogirl]

So @itwin can I assume you are Calvinist ? How do you Manage to live around people who you think are bound for hell no matter what, if so?

 

[ltwin]

And this is why it’s a good idea to always ask about what you’ve seen or heard. The man I encountered online seemed to believe that, being Elect, he was free to sin and fornicate freely. Your explanation is most welcome.

That would be a perversion of actual Reformed theology. Most respected Calvinists would tell you that the doctrine of election is supposed to make us humble. There is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, it is entirely dependent on Christ. To assume that you are simply one of the elect and can therefore sin without consequence would be antinomianism, which is condemned by the Reformed as well. Christians are still responsible to follow the moral law, not because that in itself saves us but because Christ saved us to make us holy.

 

[ltwin]

So @itwin can I assume you are Calvinist ? How do you Manage to live around people who you think are bound for hell no matter what, if so?

No. I’m not

I’m an evangelical and Pentecostal Christian. Evangelicals are divided between Calvinists and Arminians (Pentecostals are Arminians). Arminians believe that we can forfeit our salvation through unbelief and habitual sin.

I just read about Calvinism a lot.

 

[halogirl]

Oh gosh I literally never realised about all these splinter groups when I first got saved. I know two things. One : I have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit like literally POW like an Indiana Jones movie and firmly convinced I was saved. Two: I was led into the knowledge that the church has splintered and i was led to the RCC and the sacraments.

 

[BartholomewB]

I think they’d say that committing a murder shows that he was never truly one of the Elect in the first place.

And if he committed a murder after he had been accepted into a Calvinist church on the understanding that he was regenerated or converted, what then?

 

[ltwin]

And if he committed a murder after he had been accepted into a Calvinist church on the understanding that he was regenerated or converted, what then?

It depends. You have two scenarios that could play out. The first, like you said, he was never saved at all. Never one of the elect.

The second scenario, he truly experiences a work of grace, repents and puts his faith and trust in Christ.

Unless we’re him we’re never going to actually know which one is which.

The church, however, would take his confession of faith and his statement of repentance and judge whether it would be appropriate to admit him as a member in the visible church.

 

[ltwin]

after he had been accepted into a Calvinist church on the understanding that he was regenerated or converted, what then?

Another thing to clear up. Just because you’re a member of a Reformed church does not mean that the Reformed church assumes you are one of the elect. The Reformed tradition distinguishes between the invisible and visible church. The invisible church is all people who have been saved throughout time. The visible church are those who profess to be Christians. Therefore, within the visible church there are both the elect and the not elect, and that is not a problem for Calvinists.

Going back to Covenant theology, it’s like the inner and outward circumcision. Not everyone who was circumcised was actually living the covenant (as Paul pointed out in Scripture) but they were part of that external covenant.

 

[BartholomewB]

The invisible church is all people who have been saved throughout time. The visible church are those who profess to be Christians.

Like the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant?

 

[ltwin]

Like the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant?

Yes, but there are people in the visible church who aren’t really in the invisible church at all. They profess the Christian faith outwardly, but they have never been justified.

 

[BartholomewB]

In my online conversations with Calvinists, the only really serious difference I have found is the claim that a Calvinist can know that he is saved, or that he is one of the Elect. We’ll all find out when the time comes, but no one can possess that knowledge in advance. The verb “to know” can be stretched to cover a very wide range of meanings, but that is stretching it beyond breaking point.

 

[Wesrock]

BartholomewB:

Like the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant?

Yes, but there are people in the visible church who aren’t really in the invisible church at all. They profess the Christian faith outwardly, but they have never been justified.

For a Calvinist, is it possible to be regenerated and then forfeit it, such that someone who was at one time regenerated ends up among the reprobate?

 

[tafan2]

So a person knows if he is one of the election?

 

[ltwin]

For a Calvinist, is it possible to be regenerated and then forfeit it, such that someone who was at one time regenerated ends up among the reprobate?

No. If someone is truly one of the elect, they can’t forfeit it.

 

[ltwin]

So a person knows if he is one of the election?

An evangelical Calvinist would believe you can have assurance of salvation. However, it shouldn’t be like hey I"m saved so I get a license to sin. It would be more like you are assured of a salvation you still have to walk in and work out; otherwise it could turn out to be a false assurance.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

For a Calvinist, is it possible to be regenerated and then forfeit it, such that someone who was at one time regenerated ends up among the reprobate?

No. If someone is truly one of the elect, they can’t forfeit it.

So, for a Calvanist, only the elect can experience regeneration.

 

[ltwin]

So, for a Calvanist, only the elect can experience regeneration.

Yeah. This is a big difference between Calvinists and Arminians.

An Arminian would say that God gives prevenient grace to allow a person to move toward repentance and faith and this results in regeneration.

A Calvinist says God regenerates a person, which then allows them to have faith and repent. God only regenerates the elect.

 

[ZMystiCat]

Reformed Baptist denominations

Just to expand on this, some very traditionalist Reformed would not consider Reformed Baptists properly Reformed. The reason is that most Reformed Baptists will fall under one of two categories:

1. Those that hold relatively closely to Calvin’s teaching but deviate on Covenant Theology, which more traditional Reformed Christians consider critical. This would include those such as holders of the 1689 London Baptist Confession.
2. Those that are Baptists holding to TULIP but care little for Calvin’s teachings on things like covenants and sacraments.

At the very least, no Reformed Baptist will completely hold to standard Reformed theology on certain matters, given the deviation on things like infant baptism. So depending on who you talk to, Reformed Baptists can range from fully Reformed, the “awkward cousin” (as I’ve heard it put), or not Reformed at all.

Some hard core Calvinists embrace double predestination, the idea that God actively chooses both the elect and the damned.

Most don’t however.

At least in my experience, it’s a bit more split. There was one Reformed community that I was part of that saw predestination as single-predestination, with God “passing over” those not elected. (As far as I’m aware, this is actually in-line with what Thomism teaches.) However, I definitely knew my fair share of Calvinists who thought double predestination was proper. Others were also wary of taking a side, generally because they thought the Bible leaned towards double predestination but knew it brought up questions about God’s nature that they couldn’t answer.

Just because you’re a member of a Reformed church does not mean that the Reformed church assumes you are one of the elect.

Well, barring any outward displays to the contrary, they will assume it, insofar as it permits you to take of the Lord’s Supper. However, they’d also allow anyone who professes Christ and doesn’t appear to be living contrary to that profession to take of it, not necessarily just those who are members of their church or another Reformed one.

For a Calvinist, is it possible to be regenerated and then forfeit it, such that someone who was at one time regenerated ends up among the reprobate?

No, that would violate the P in TULIP - Perseverance of the Saints. It is possible for someone to have a “prodigal son” moment, seeming to walk away but coming back at a later time, but the person could never be separated from God’s grace.

So a person knows if he is one of the election?

Sort of. Calvinists generally teach that you can know that you’re saved, which would imply knowing you’re elect. I had a pastor who once marvelled at how a Pope wouldn’t know that he was guaranteed to be in heaven. (One of that pastor’s roommates had a chance to ask Pope Benedict the question.)

However, there is no really satisfactory answer to how someone can think they’re saved, walk away, and never come back.

 

[BartholomewB]

I had a pastor who once marvelled at how a Pope wouldn’t know that he was guaranteed to be in heaven. (One of that pastor’s roommates had a chance to ask Pope Benedict the question.)

The marveling is reciprocal. For me, someone saying “I know I’m saved” or “I know I’ll be going to heaven” is pretty much on the same level of “knowing” as someone who says, “I know it’ll rain tomorrow morning because it always rains when it’s my turn to walk the dog.”