Misunderstood obedience and the liturgy

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We don’t have printed breviaries from 1500 years ago.

And, as for the Psalter, the basic tradition is the whole Psalter in 1 week. Every breviary has maintained that tradition. Until 1970, of course.
Are you disputing the FACT that the psalter is 1500 years old? If so, kindly see my quote about the findings of Benedict XIV’s commission. Almarius of Metz gives a verbatim schema of the Roman psalter. And you can look up the online Catholic Encyclopedia on that also to see the age of the psalter.

Not all the breviaries had that tradition, though the Roman breviary is among those who do. But then if we are taking into account rules regarding the traiditon of the Roman breviary what about those requiring entire psalms to be said and prescribing the days under which psalms should only be said under 1 antiphon? Rules whcih survived under 1911 for the Roman breviary.
 
The Roman Office had the tradition of all the psalms in 1 week. Until 1970. End of story.
 
The Roman Office had the tradition of all the psalms in 1 week. Until 1970. End of story.
Definitely correct. The Roman Breviary also had a tradition of reciting entire psalms, reciting psalms under 1 antiphon on specified days, maintaining distinctions that go back to at least St. Gregory the Great between ferial, Sunday and festal Offices. Until 1913. End of story.

How do we decide which of our traditions are OK to keep and which are OK to discard?
 
The 1970 Breviary is a disaster. Bugnini, for the first time in history, cut entire psalms and verses of psalms from the Psalter.
 
The 1970 Breviary is a disaster. Bugnini, for the first time in history, cut entire psalms and verses of psalms from the Psalter.
Alex, I accept:
1970 was a fabrication.
An inorganic fabrication
In which numerous elements of Roman tradition was discarded for no good reason save time (though a few things were bettered)
And the structure of all the hours was banalised.

The point is that I am not trying in the least to defend the Liturgia Horarum of 1970. Nor do I have any intention of doing so.

My point is that breviaries from 1913 onward, especially those which are used by a sizeable number of Traditional communities (1962) also have changes that do not sync with tradition. They are products of reforms that have imposed products of a commission over 1500 year traditions of the Roman Breviary.

Those who follow the NO are in your opinion have misunderstood sense of tradition because “1500+ years of liturgical tradition? The pope can erase it. You must obey.” Now did not St. Pius X, Ven. Pius XII and Bl. John XXIII also remove elements of 1500 tradition (and later traditions also) and impose it on the Roman Church? St. Pius X’s reform was not even organic- on the contrary it was thoroughly inorganic. The only question I have is: WHY should those reciting those breviaries, that have done away with 1500 year tradition, NOT be labeled as having “misunderstood obedience”?

And if not, what is the criteria for selecting those elements of liturgical tradition stretching over 1500 years that we are at liberty to discard?
 
And if not, what is the criteria for selecting those elements of liturgical tradition stretching over 1500 years that we are at liberty to discard?
personal preference
 
Actually, in my personal experience, the PCED is very open to modifications that reflect pre-1962 traditions.

Remember, for starters, Bugnini had his hands in everything 1948-1962. Many of the changes from the 50s were never widely accepted in practical use.
 
Remember, for starters, Bugnini had his hands in everything 1948-1962. Many of the changes from the 50s were never widely accepted in practical use.
So the majority of priests and religious reciting the Roman Office just ignored Cum Nostra and Rubricarum Instructum?

I still would like to know though (and I probably can go on harping on the issue till the last post of this thread) whether “misunderstood obedience” applies to all those who have been reciting the Roman Office from 1913 onward? Does it apply to the
1913 breviary
1955/56 breviary revisions
1961 breviary
 
It’s apples and oranges to talk about pre-1970 and post-1970.
  1. Pre-1970, ALL Roman Breviaries have the entire Psalter. We can quibble endlessly about the arrangement. But they have the WHOLE Psalter. And, plus, it’s the whole Psalter every week.
  2. Post-1970, Psalter is edited. Seriously edited. And, it’s never the whole Psalter every week.
As for the “changes” before 1970…it says quite a lot that the majority of them let you keep the same books. John XXIII explicitly decreed that you should be able to use the same books.

Did people ignore the specific “cuts” of 1960, not to mention the 50s, where changes were coming almost every year? Yes.

Furthermore…when I checked with the PCED…interestingly they happily noted that it wasn’t REQUIRED to cut readings…it was a permission granted. It wasn’t suddenly “disobedient” or “rebellious” to keep on reading the full Matins.
 
It’s apples and oranges to talk about pre-1970 and post-1970.
  1. Pre-1970, ALL Roman Breviaries have the entire Psalter. We can quibble endlessly about the arrangement. But they have the WHOLE Psalter. And, plus, it’s the whole Psalter every week.
  2. Post-1970, Psalter is edited. Seriously edited. And, it’s never the whole Psalter every week.
As for the “changes” before 1970…it says quite a lot that the majority of them let you keep the same books. John XXIII explicitly decreed that you should be able to use the same books.

Did people ignore the specific “cuts” of 1960, not to mention the 50s, where changes were coming almost every year? Yes.

Furthermore…when I checked with the PCED…interestingly they happily noted that it wasn’t REQUIRED to cut readings…it was a permission granted. It wasn’t suddenly “disobedient” or “rebellious” to keep on reading the full Matins.
The issue is not about pre-1970 vs. post 1970. It’s about Popes overruling 1500 year old traditions. And not only overuling but overuling inorganically.

So basically the only relevant 1500 year old tradition is that the entire psalter be recited in one week? Forget how they are arranged? And forget the distinctions between the Sunday and ferial and festal offices, and all the other traditions of the Roman breviary that I’ve mentioned previously? Who decided that?

Funny that the Quigon breviary which also recited the 150 psalms every week was condemned in Quod a nobis. Must have been the arrangement refered to as the “deformed arrangement” in Quod a nobis since many of the Matins lessons and responsories of the 1568 Roman breviary were taken from the Quigon breviary.

All the Matins lessons do not go back 1500 years. And the psalter was expressly forbidden as you can read in ‘Divino Afflatu’. Not only abolished, but reciting it did not fulfil one’s obligation and those bound to recite the Office, who did not adhere received canonical penalities. Moreover, as you can read at the end, the wrath of Almighty God and Ss. Peter and Paul was called down on all those who disobeyed and ahered to a 1500 usuage.
Does this also say a lot about the 1913 changes?

Changes coming **every year **to the breviary in the 50’s? What were they?

I honestly would be interested in the PCED reference. Who did you write to?

And tell me: Is it permissible for anyone to start reciting the 6 verses, antiphons and collects at the place where commemorations are made in the Office.
 
While I am indeed interested in learning more about the liturgical revisions of the past century, I thought I strike back more firmly toward the meat of the original post, which seems to have misconceptions of obedience.

First, as the last paragraph shows, obedience is conflated with approval. It makes no sense whatsoever to take a leap from a Catholic obeying ecclesiastical authority to that Catholic agreeing with the decision of authority. There’s a reason obedience and agreement are two separate categories. Ever hear of a religious vowing to obey his superior when and only when he agrees with that superior? St. Pio obviously disagreed with his superiors regarding their sanctions on his activity, yet he still obeyed (often the difference between saints and the rest of us). I believe the Pian missal contains a far superior rite to the Pauline missal, yet when there is no 1962 Mass available I fulfill my obligation at the 2002 Mass.

Still, obedience does allow for legitimate exceptions. One exception would be if authority commanded something contrary to faith and morals. The Church cannot, however, do this, unless someone would like to take issue with the disciplinary infallibility of the Church (note, this does not infer superlative discipline, just, to use a negative, non-impious discipline).

The other exception to obedience, since the first is off the table, seems to be when a superior commands something outside his authority. A bishop can’t stipulate which candidate to vote for under pain of sin, nor can a priest forbid reception of the Eucharist on the tongue. This seems to be the exception Alex is referring to by stating that no pope has the authority to eliminate so much tradition. (Oddly he notes in his criticism the fact that no “official document” mandates Paul VI’s changes, which seems somewhat irrelevant unless we’re still caught up in 15th century conciliarism.) Without discussing the Tradition-al merits of the argument that the pope cannot eliminate traditional elements, which I don’t really feel well-researched enough to tackle, I’m more interested in the consequences of holding two views which Alex claims to hold: 1) Paul VI did not have the authority to promulgate a new rite, and 2) the new rite is a valid Mass.

These two beliefs seem to create quite a bit of tension because they begin from the premise that no one whatsoever is allowed to invent a new rite. If no is able to do this legitimately, how is it that this illegitimate rite can confect a valid Eucharist? I suppose one might say that form, matter, and intent are enough even outside of Mass, but such a consecration is, according to our canons, gravely sinful. Thus that would leave us with the conclusion that a pope had commanded the faithful to impiety, at which point papal infallibility surely sets in. What, then, is one to do? Claim that, since he had no authority to do so, Paul VI did not actually promulgate a new Mass? I just don’t see how to resolve this.
 
The problem is making every little thing an issue of “obedience or disobedience.”

If the Breviary has 9 lessons for St. Justin, and then a new Breviary rubric says 6 of the 9 readings are cut, but you decide to continue to read the edifying words of the saint at Matins…are you “disobedient”?

Not exactly. To talk in terms of obedience and disobedience in such matters is to lose the whole point of the Divine Office and its purpose.

Is a person sinning if they know the newest rubric says read only 3, but they continue to read all 9?

Of course not.
 
The thing is I don’t think that one can make the assumption that most of those who recite the Breviary would go and recite the older lessons. Though I would really like to discuss this point because it brings up all sorts of fascinating (at least, for me) questions like:---- do I read contracted forms as Lesson IX, where it is given, or can I join the 3 nocturns to read Lesson IX, as previously, with their extra sentences. Can I say extra commemorations like Concede Nos as long as I say the Suffrage of the saints, A cunctis? At what point do I exceed the given quota of private additions into the breviary? -----except that that however was not my main point. The main point is the question in post 44 regarding the Psalterium Romanum and its traditions, and the other ancient parts of the Roman breviary that were omitted in 1913.
 
The problem is making every little thing an issue of “obedience or disobedience.”

If the Breviary has 9 lessons for St. Justin, and then a new Breviary rubric says 6 of the 9 readings are cut, but you decide to continue to read the edifying words of the saint at Matins…are you “disobedient”?

Not exactly. To talk in terms of obedience and disobedience in such matters is to lose the whole point of the Divine Office and its purpose.

Is a person sinning if they know the newest rubric says read only 3, but they continue to read all 9?

Of course not.
So instead of making everything an issue of obedience or disobedience, it seems safer to consult the authorities to whom obedience is due. They’ve said, for instance, that public celebration of the Pian missal without permission is disobedient. They seem to have said that private recitation of the office can be done according to whatever books one wishes. Therefore I would conclude that the first is disobedient, the second is not. That’s not too complicated.

Now, the real issue at hand: do those who attend the Novus Ordo have automatically a warped sense of obedience because they put up with the bishop regulating the liturgy within the bounds established by the supreme legislator? Not at all. They could disagree - they could, and should, even fight when he exceeds those bounds - but there is nothing defective about obedience to just and properly promulgated legislation.

A good rule of thumb, once again, for locating unnecessary turns to obedience would be see whether obedience has been invoked by the issuing authority. In the case of the Mass, it most certainly has been in some instances, in others (such as posture for or mode of reception of Holy Communion) it has not.
 
I recite Matins, Lauds and Vespers according to a quite intricate system of rubrics that I think reflects the best of 1960 and pre-1960, and the PCED’s response to my inquiry about the “licitness” of it and whether it was still the Divine Office was a quite clear “yes”.
 
I recite Matins, Lauds and Vespers according to a quite intricate system of rubrics that I think reflects the best of 1960 and pre-1960, and the PCED’s response to my inquiry about the “licitness” of it and whether it was still the Divine Office was a quite clear “yes”.
Out of curiosity which rubrics do you use? And which calendar do you follow?
 
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