Misused labels of Atheist and Atheism

[Damian]

He is outside of time.

What does it mean to be outside of time? As I understand it, time is just a way of indicating Event A to Event B. We start the big bang, tentatively, at Time =0 because we don’t know what events went on before that point. Once we can figure out that barrier, we will change our time reference point back to the next barrier of our understanding.
As I understand it, thought is necessarily linear. How can you have thought without linear time?
What does it mean to exist outside of time?

He created us and our world.

I understand this is the theology here. But if you were to destroy all the theological evidence, would you be able to recreate your holy texts for this theology? You could for the science books for example. So what about reality indicates that this is actually the case?

He was born of the Virgin Mary and became a man

Okay. From someone outside of the religion, it seems more likely, to me, that she got pregnant by messing around with her fiance at the time than by divine means. I would have preferred the story of her and her husband creating this person than the deity’s method, since as a husband, I would not want anyone or anything breaking the respect of our married relationship that way. Especially since, during that time, pregnancy out of marriage was potentially a lethal offense for the time. Damaged goods and all that.

proceeds in Spirit from the Father and the Son.

What does spirit mean?

Basically I’m coming from the point that the reason that these debates about the supernatural have been going on since the first time we sat around the fire and discussed them thousands of years ago and we haven’t progressed any further with verifying the claims. What it is, how it interacts with our reality, etc. can not be determined independently through investigating reality for ourselves. The source of the supernatural and it’s qualities are all being passed down as cultural tradition. Can you help me distinguish between a cultural assertion and a way to verify these claims?

 

[Spyridon]

Describe a human: give it’s characteristics (physical, emotional, etc.). Such as typical time length of life, ranges of height, color, movement abilities, strength, mental skills, evolutionary history, etc.

Jesus of Nazareth, the Lamb of God.

You will never believe in the faith purely by intellect. You will have to reach out to God in your spirit, or you will remain eternally in darkness.

The choice is yours @Damian

 

[Damian]

How do I do that exactly, because I have yet to run into an atheist that has not done this, including me. Many atheists, not like me, started out being religious and then fell out of the religion. I just never believed the claims from the start, so it was always just a cultural tradition to me. Relationships are a two way street, so what is it always assumed that the atheist is not reaching out instead of the deity?

How do I reach out with my spirit?
What is a spirit exactly? Many people describe it as I would for consciousness.

 

[laylow]

Relationships are a two way street, so what is it always assumed that the atheist is not reaching out instead of the deity?

Not if you are a slave to the dictator.

 

[Damian]

True, but I don’t know if it is a dictator for them is a bad thing or not. King Arthur was a dictator as well and Camelot was a thriving community. The governed have to consent to the type of government they want, so if dictatorship works for them and they want to be governed that way, so be it.

 

[Spyridon]

How do I reach out with my spirit?
What is a spirit exactly? Many people describe it as I would for consciousness.

Get on your knees and cry out to God.

Use words something like “God I want to believe and know you, reveal yourself to me, please sbow yourself to me, come into my heart.”

Pray until your sweating and ready to pass out in this manner… Then keep doing it over and over and over until God reveals himself in your heart and you have faith in him.

Pray for the Holy Spirit to speak to you and read the Gospels.

Go to Mass and pray before for God to help you believe.

God says that when you seek him with all your heart, you will find him, and his word is sure.

 

[rcwitness]

What does it mean to be outside of time? As I understand it, time is just a way of indicating Event A to Event B. We start the big bang, tentatively, at Time =0 because we don’t know what events went on before that point. Once we can figure out that barrier, we will change our time reference point back to the next barrier of our understanding. As I understand it, thought is necessarily linear. How can you have thought without linear time? What does it mean to exist outside of time?

Exactly. We need to reference everything with a beginning and and end. We have finite minds. God existed before the Big Bang. Time is just revolutions of objects in space, its all relative to matter moving. But God is not confined or measured by matter which He Himself created.

I understand this is the theology here. But if you were to destroy all the theological evidence, would you be able to recreate your holy texts for this theology? You could for the science books for example. So what about reality indicates that this is actually the case?

Why would it be so hard for texts to be re-created? Anyways, I dont like wild “what if” scenarios.

Okay. From someone outside of the religion, it seems more likely, to me, that she got pregnant by messing around with her fiance at the time than by divine means. I would have preferred the story of her and her husband creating this person than the deity’s method, since as a husband, I would not want anyone or anything breaking the respect of our married relationship that way. Especially since, during that time, pregnancy out of marriage was potentially a lethal offense for the time. Damaged goods and all that.

Yeah, God’s ways are not intended to suit our preferences, yet He knows what we truly need, because He is our creator. Thats why no one else would say the things Jesus said, or do the things He did, especially willingly be led to the slaughter of crucifiction while praying for their forgiveness.

What does spirit mean?

The essence of a person. A person’s attitudes and character. The invisible traits and qualities of a person.

Basically I’m coming from the point that the reason that these debates about the supernatural, what it is, how it interacts with our reality, etc. can not be determined independently through investigating reality for ourselves. The source of the supernatural and it’s qualities are all being passed down as cultural tradition. Can you help me distinguish between a cultural assertion and a way to verify these claims?

We have a natural conscience and sense of the spiritual reality, but have lost it through betraying the Spirit which gave us life. So we must be healed and aided by returning to the Father. But we cannot do that on our own, He must descend to where we are, in order to lift us up to where He is. Jesus is God’s humility.

 

[Spyridon]

What is a spirit exactly? Many

A spirit is an incorporeal intellect - the intellectual power of the mind and the will - the angels are referred to as “bodiless intellects.”

Don’t fall for the lie of materialistic scientism that consciousness and intellect is 100% purely a function of the brain.

Science has no real idea of consciousness, how it evolved or why or even what it is. Various theories, but they are sketchy at best.

Science has no real good theories about dreams - sketchy ones at best, but not solid proof.

And even if it was proven that consciousness and intellect are 100% functions of the brain, it wouldn’t disprove a soul which functions in a mysterious way together with the brain.

 

[Vonsalza]

I’m not talking about homosexuality. It is against my religion to serve people with Blonde hair. I have freedom of religion. You have blonde hair. Sorry, you’re out, take your car elsewhere.

C’mon. Weak.
The religious objection to homosexuality is substantially older and more recognized than your religious aversion to helping blonde people. And does that matter? Yeah. Yeah it does.

When I put two grooms on a cake that has cultural significance to me, I’m profaning a cultural icon that I associate with heterosexual relationships founded in Godly love.

Your alternator, on the other hand, is an alternator. I can’t tell the gayness of the owner by looking at it.

I never have understood the premise that morality can only come from a supreme being. Raping is kid is wrong because it’s obviously wrong! The golden rule would suffice for that. Put yourself in the shoes of the kid. Humans are intelligent enough to contrive morality.

The Golden Rule only reinforces the morality it’s nested in. It’s not a morality unto itself.

If I think the mighty should do what they can and make the weak suffer what they must, then when it’s my turn to suffer, I’ll cry out “praise the mighty!”

Rape isn’t wrong “just because it’s wrong”. There’s no such thing and if I told you “God is just because he is”, you’d balk. There’s very little of what we’d call “consensual sex” in the animal kingdom.

That’s the residue of the mostly religious based status quo morality you were raised with seeping through.

Using the same theory, it seems as though God is the only reason for wanting to do good, which to me doesn’t seem to be much of a moral proposition. Appeal to the dictator instead of deciding for oneself.

Huge, mega-problem.

Morality isn’t about self. It’s about the rules that everyone follows.

You need a standard greater than any particular man. God historically fits that bill.

 

[Spyridon]

Huge, mega-problem.

Morality isn’t about self. It’s about the rules that everyone follows.

And humans are finicky creatures.

What if society collectively starts being desensitized to the idea that it’s okay for 40 year old men to anally penetrate 10 year old boys? What happens once 80% of societu believes that’s okay, then it becomes legal?

Then why is it still wrong

Just because you say it is? But who are you?

 

[Damian]

Get on your knees and cry out to God.

Why can’t I sit quietly in a chair and think this?

Use words something like “God I want to believe and know you, reveal yourself to me, please sbow yourself to me, come into my heart.”

I can use these words, but I don’t know if I want a meaningful relationship with it yet by the phrase, “come into my heart”. Just like how you run into someone, you don’t know if you want this person to be a life long friend or someone you should call the cops on. That has to be established after they first reveal that they exist at all and then have a conversation with them right?

Pray until your sweating and ready to pass out in this manner… Then keep doing it over and over and over until God reveals himself in your heart and you have faith in him.

One quiet mental moment is enough for me thank you. I am not going to become a spectacle for everyone else.

Pray for the Holy Spirit to speak to you and read the Gospels.

You’ll find that most atheist know the religious texts better than the religious do. That is why Richard Dawkins describes the deity as he does. Based on the texts, not an actual relationship with this deity, he comes to his conclusions. He believes the texts of the deity describe a deity worse than the devil itself.
As to pray, quiet prayer to the deity should work right? It’s the equivalent of walking up and just knocking on the door. I don’t need to stand outside with a boombox held up for all the neighbors to see.

Go to Mass and pray before for God to help you believe.

Been to mass.
Your god should know what it would take for me to believe already. So it is either not providing that evidence or can not. Either way, not my problem.

God says that when you seek him with all your heart, you will find him, and his word is sure.

I can seek out a deity with the same earnestness as looking for my lost keys. I want to find them. But I am not looking for it like I would if my wife went missing. Since she’s actually apart of my life by her actions and choice to reveal herself to me and to have daily conversations with me.

 

[Damian]

Okay just did that experiment. Nothing happened. Now what?

 

[laylow]

C’mon. Weak.
The religious objection to homosexuality is substantially older and more recognized than your religious aversion to helping blonde people. And does that matter? Yeah. Yeah it does.

The age of the objection is relevant? Slavery was supported for many, many years. Suppose the South had a legit claim with that one?

That’s the thing Christians miss about freedom of religion because they are the majority. I can start a religion at any time and have any beliefs that I want. If that’s the precedent you want to set, I can go claiming to do or refuse to do (within the law) anything based on my religious belief. After all, from my perspective, the beliefs were all created by man, so I have just as much right as anyone else.

When I put two grooms on a cake that has cultural significance to me, I’m profaning a cultural icon that I associate with heterosexual relationships founded in Godly love.

To someone who doesn’t believe in that, that sounds absurd. No less absurd than not serving the blonde guy.

The Golden Rule only reinforces the morality it’s nested in. It’s not a morality unto itself.

If I think the mighty should do what they can and make the weak suffer what they must, then when it’s my turn to suffer, I’ll cry out “praise the mighty!”

Rape isn’t wrong “just because it’s wrong”. There’s no such thing and if I told you “God is just because he is”, you’d balk. There’s very little of what we’d call “consensual sex” in the animal kingdom.

That’s the residue of the mostly religious based status quo morality you were raised with seeping through.

I read this hastily, but would have to say I disagree with all of it.

Huge, mega-problem.

Morality isn’t about self. It’s about the rules that everyone follows.

You need a standard greater than any particular man. God historically fits that bill.

I don’t even care if you call it God. Just as long as you are willing to change the parts that are obviously wrong.

 

[laylow]

Okay just did that experiment. Nothing happened. Now what?

I think you forgot to pass out. You might start seeing visions like the apostles if you get disoriented enough.

 

[Vonsalza]

The age of the objection is relevant?

Yup. It goes to the courts and that’s one of the standards that get employed.

There might be a few states where you can put a colander on your head as a religious submission to Pastafari, but not in Kentucky.

That’s the thing Christians miss about freedom of religion because they are the majority.

That’s a problem inherent to any democracy. The problem isn’t “Christians” per se, it’s your desire to exist outside the dominant social group. When you do that, you’ll always have problems.

That’s made your life hard for roughly 250,000 years of human history.

To someone who doesn’t believe in that, that sounds absurd. No less absurd than not serving the blonde guy.

I don’t want to participate in your gay marriage ritual.

Not saying to don’t want you to have the right to marry in a secular government. I just don’t want to be forced to submit to your dictatorship (see what I did there?) and be a part of it.

Sorry, not sorry. Give me my freedom.

I read this hastily, but would have to say I disagree with all of it.

“Right of might” is the moral compass for the vast, vast majority of the animal kingdom. I assure you, your disagreement is immaterial.
If you’re a female baboon and the alpha wants some action, he ain’t asking…

I don’t even care if you call it God. Just as long as you are willing to change the parts that are obviously wrong.

Yeah. The objection levied by everyone against every moral schema ever…

 

[wkj_123]

I really just don’t get the whole God is our morality argument. The goalposts always get moved. The Bible has been used to saction many terrible things in history. Then the “well it’s just bad people not the religions fault” argument is used but where does that end? I mean God orders some terrible things in the Bible. The Midianites can attest to that. If God commands a war and cant even follow the morality of the Geneva convention why is this our standard of good? Things like that today are called crimes against humanity. Doesn’t make sense.

 

[Damian]

I agree with the logical idea of something having a beginning, but the first cause argument does not point to or imply a deity is the answer.

God existed before the Big Bang. Time is just revolutions of objects in space, its all relative to matter moving.

So you’re using god for the start of the big bang while I’ll just use X. Why not just use X then? What makes you think it’s more than just X? The event that kicked off the big bang was there before the big bang as well. This I agree on. What is it? No idea. So you seem to be worshiping the idea of the thing that started the big bang. Okay fine with that.

Why would it be so hard for texts to be re-created? Anyways, I dont like wild “what if” scenarios.

I believe it would be hard for these religious texts to be recreated because of the lack of evidence linking the supernatural to our experienced reality. Let me clarify this more for you. If I destroyed all the superman comics, would you be able to rewrite them exactly as they were? Even if you had read them all? Imagine now trying to rewrite them all if you had no knowledge of the superman comics. Would you be able to rewrite them at that point? I doubt it. Now, destroy the literature on gravity, evolution, cosmology, germ theory, etc. Will those books return? I believe so because the data for those is all around us to reference. The data for the religious claims are all coming from the religious texts, not from reality around us. That’s how it looks to me. Help me find out how to distinguish between the religious claims being cultural stories vs how reality actually is by reaching into reality to recreate these holy texts. Does that help?

 

[Damian]

God’s ways are not intended to suit our preferences,

I thought that is how you determine if your god was the devil or the deity. The deity was evil as you understand it, by it’s actions in your life and your deity was the good one based on its actions and influence in your life. You are treated well by your deity and not by the devil. If that is not the case, then how did you determine which one was the good one and the bad one?

The essence of a person. A person’s attitudes and character. The invisible traits and qualities of a person.

So personality and consciousness as I understand it. These are all found in a functioning brain. Are you suggesting there is a duality here between the personality and the meat carriage that it travels around in?

spiritual reality,

I don’t know what you mean by this.

 

[laylow]

Yup. It goes to the courts and that’s one of the standards that get employed.

There might be a few states where you can put a colander on your head as a religious submission to Pastafari, but not in Kentucky.

It’s immoral and unfair to not have the same rights based on MY creator.

That’s a problem inherent to any democracy. The problem isn’t “Christians” per se, it’s your desire to exist outside the dominant social group. When you do that, you’ll always have problems.

That’s made your life hard for roughly 250,000 years of human history.

Doesn’t make it moral.

I don’t want to participate in your gay marriage ritual.

Not saying to don’t want you to have the right to marry in a secular government. I just don’t want to be forced to submit to your dictatorship (see what I did there?) and be a part of it.

Sorry, not sorry. Give me my freedom.

For clarity, I will not be participating in a gay marriage anytime soon, I’m about as far from that side as anyone, but that’s not the point. I obviously expect you do have your freedom. I don’t even care if you refuse to bake a cake. I’m just saying that opens the door for anyone to refuse anyone else service of any kind, otherwise you are prioritizing one person’s beliefs over another’s.

If you’re a female baboon and the alpha wants some action, he ain’t asking …

Well, hastily re-reading it, that is the only part I agree with

Yeah. The objection levied by everyone against every moral schema ever…

Change with society’s definition of morality. It happens whether the church wants to believe it anyway. And it will happen with gay marriage, if it doesn’t fold first.

 

[Vonsalza]

It’s immoral and unfair to not have the same rights based on MY creator.

See you at the polls. May the most popular creator win.

Doesn’t make it moral.

A secular anthropologist would argue that alone makes it moral.

I’m just saying that opens the door for anyone to refuse anyone else service of any kind, otherwise you are prioritizing one person’s beliefs over another’s.

Sounds like any other day to me.

Change with society’s definition of morality. It happens whether the church wants to believe it anyway. And it will happen with gay marriage, if it doesn’t fold first.

After 2000 years? Not likely.

They don’t like to admit it, but it changes too. That’s how it survives.

I think we’re winding down. Last word is yours. For now.