Mithraism

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Dorothy said:
I don’t know much about this topic, but for dialogue’s sake let us say that Mithraism thought up some “Christian” things first.

What does that prove to me? It proves that many pagans do not have complete and intact revelation, and that Christians have Divine Revelation.

In the souls of pagans, deep down there is some kind of thinking that is mystical and may have some resemblance to Divine Revelation, but is very “off” in its conclusions.

Thanks be to the Lord for Divine Revelation; may we humbly adhere to it!
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The obvious example might be elements of Zoroastrianism. Or the natural law.
 
Dorothy said:
I don’t know much about this topic, but for dialogue’s sake let us say that Mithraism thought up some “Christian” things first.

What does that prove to me? It proves that many pagans do not have complete and intact revelation, and that Christians have Divine Revelation.

In the souls of pagans, deep down there is some kind of thinking that is mystical and may have some resemblance to Divine Revelation, but is very “off” in its conclusions.

Thanks be to the Lord for Divine Revelation; may we humbly adhere to it!
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Some sites said that the fact these cults believed what they did and practiced how they practiced indicates a longing for God, a longing that God puts in everyone but was channelled wrong.
 
roger_pearse said:
Quite impossible. The early Christians were rabidly hostile to such syncretism. Nor does any evidence of such copying exist. The argument that any similarity between two things is enough to prove connection, then derivation, is a fallacy.
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Something that’s bothering me now is a kindle version sample of the book “The Jesus Legend, A Case,for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Transition,” a Christion apologetic recommended a long ago post by PhilVaz, that says that the Jews were thought of being against astrology and mysticism but that this is wrong and some Jews embraced this. Kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that the early Jews who later became Christians abhorred that sort of thing, as evidence that Christianity would shun anything like that. Or not?
I ordered the book in paper instead of reading it on my Kindle and should receive it this week.
 
Faith1960 said:
Some sites said that the fact these cults believed what they did and practiced how they practiced indicates a longing for God, a longing that God puts in everyone but was channelled wrong.
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Was that what you meant, Dorothy?
 
Faith1960 said:
Something that’s bothering me now is a kindle version sample of the book “The Jesus Legend, A Case,for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Transition,” a Christion apologetic recommended a long ago post by PhilVaz, that says that the Jews were thought of being against astrology and mysticism but that this is wrong and some Jews embraced this. Kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that the early Jews who later became Christians abhorred that sort of thing, as evidence that Christianity would shun anything like that. Or not?
I ordered the book in paper instead of reading it on my Kindle and should receive it this week.
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I think this needs careful handling. Astrology and mysticism is not the same as the worship of the Olympians, is it?

What we’re discussing here is the tendency of Jewish people of a certain kind to become involved in ancient magic. This sort of thing certainly went on; but isn’t relevant.

Surely we know very well that the Jews did NOT embrace paganism. Certainly some did – we see that in Maccabees – but they ceased to be Jews in the process.

To anyone who wishes to tell me that the early Christians were syncretic, I have two obvious questions: 1. where is the evidence, and why are you disregarding the endless anti-pagan statements throughout the fathers? and 2. if the early Christians were syncretic, why did they refuse to sacrifice?

Some people will then say that some early Christians DID sacrifice; but we will find, on examination, that they are labelling as “Christians” those whom the early Christians (including people like the apostle John) labelled as “heretics” and expelled from their congregations.

But as I say, people may say anything. Anyone who wishes to suggest that the early Christians were not hostile to paganism is welcome to produce quotations from the fathers saying so. These do not exist, of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
PS: pardon me if this is terse - I have a raging headache and no time to answer properly. Just be aware that all this line of argument involves intentional jiggery-pokery.
 
roger_pearse said:
I think this needs careful handling. Astrology and mysticism is not the same as the worship of the Olympians, is it?

What we’re discussing here is the tendency of Jewish people of a certain kind to become involved in ancient magic. This sort of thing certainly went on; but isn’t relevant.

Surely we know very well that the Jews did NOT embrace paganism. Certainly some did – we see that in Maccabees – but they ceased to be Jews in the process.

To anyone who wishes to tell me that the early Christians were syncretic, I have two obvious questions: 1. where is the evidence, and why are you disregarding the endless anti-pagan statements throughout the fathers? and 2. if the early Christians were syncretic, why did they refuse to sacrifice?

Some people will then say that some early Christians DID sacrifice; but we will find, on examination, that they are labelling as “Christians” those whom the early Christians (including people like the apostle John) labelled as “heretics” and expelled from their congregations.

But as I say, people may say anything. Anyone who wishes to suggest that the early Christians were not hostile to paganism is welcome to produce quotations from the fathers saying so. These do not exist, of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
PS: pardon me if this is terse - I have a raging headache and no time to answer properly. Just be aware that all this line of argument involves intentional jiggery-pokery.
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Hope you feel better soon. I used to get horrible headaches too. I never knew menopause would have an up side. 🙂
 
Faith1960 said:
Something that’s bothering me now is a kindle version sample of the book “The Jesus Legend, A Case,for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Transition,” a Christion apologetic recommended a long ago post by PhilVaz, that says that the Jews were thought of being against astrology and mysticism but that this is wrong and some Jews embraced this. Kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that the early Jews who later became Christians abhorred that sort of thing, as evidence that Christianity would shun anything like that. Or not?
I ordered the book in paper instead of reading it on my Kindle and should receive it this week.
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*Jesus Tradition
 
Faith1960 said:
Was that what you meant, Dorothy?
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That sounds like it, articulated differently. Divine Revelation has the whole Truth, and the longing of seeking pagans got some of it sort of right. (If I remember correctly, Mithra was believed, by the pagans, to be born of a virgin.)
 
Dorothy said:
That sounds like it, articulated differently. Divine Revelation has the whole Truth, and the longing of seeking pagans got some of it sort of right. (If I remember correctly, Mithra was believed, by the pagans, to be born of a virgin.)
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Please look at the link I posted in post #7, the last 1/3 of the article.They explain it better than I, is that what you mean?

As for Mithra’s birth, no, he was born naked, as an adult, out of a rock. Lol. 😃 No virgins.
 
Haha. All religions have some similarities. Mithraism is not terribly similar to Christianity. If you listen to these people they will be telling you one day that Catholicism was derived from some local pagan traditions somewhere one day, and from Mithraism the next, from Hinduism the next, from Buddhism the next, from other pagan cultures the next, etc. Ok, so which one is it? Hahahaha.

Even Buddhism and Catholicism has some similar teachings despite the fact that their core messages are in direct opposition. Buddha says to serve yourself so that you may finally die and be extinguished, Catholicism says you are to serve your fellow man so that you may live forever.
 
Faith1960 said:
Please look at the link I posted in post #7, the last 1/3 of the article.They explain it better than I, is that what you mean?

As for Mithra’s birth, no, he was born naked, as an adult, out of a rock. Lol. 😃 No virgins.
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I just read for a few minutes in that link, and they seem to make some good observations, but it isn’t very scholarly as the other gentleman’s site in this thread.

In general, what I was trying to say or should have said, is that sincere pagans who are honestly searching for truth may come up with ideas that are similar to the truths of Christian faith, but they wouldn’t have the whole truth which is given to us through Divine Revelation, starting with the Old Testament.
 
Dorothy said:
I just read for a few minutes in that link, and they seem to make some good observations, but it isn’t very scholarly as the other gentleman’s site in this thread.

In general, what I was trying to say or should have said, is that sincere pagans who are honestly searching for truth may come up with ideas that are similar to the truths of Christian faith, but they wouldn’t have the whole truth which is given to us through Divine Revelation, starting with the Old Testament.
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I agree, not very scholarly, but I think the writer was trying to say the same thing we are.
 
white_sheep said:
Haha. All religions have some similarities. Mithraism is not terribly similar to Christianity. If you listen to these people they will be telling you one day that Catholicism was derived from some local pagan traditions somewhere one day, and from Mithraism the next, from Hinduism the next, from Buddhism the next, from other pagan cultures the next, etc. Ok, so which one is it? .
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Why do you think that is?
 
Faith1960 said:
Why do you think that is?
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Faith,

I think it is because there will always be people trying to detract from the truth of the faith, whether they do it in ignorance or in malice.

We need to live our faith and show them that Our Lord’s teachings really work. (love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, etc.). The holier we become, the more others will desire the peace and joy we have in living out our faith no matter what.
 
Dorothy said:
Faith,

I think it is because there will always be people trying to detract from the truth of the faith, whether they do it in ignorance or in malice.

We need to live our faith and show them that Our Lord’s teachings really work. (love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, etc.). The holier we become, the more others will desire the peace and joy we have in living out our faith no matter what.
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👍

I never realized how many anti-Catholics there were until I returned to my faith after being away for many years.
 
roger_pearse said:
We need to distinguish between Mithra and Mithras. The ancient Persian cult of Mithra or Mitra is not relevant here.
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  1. Could Christianity or the Old Testament have been copied from Mitra?
  2. Wasn’t Mitra before the Old Testament and Christianity?
 
Faith1960 said:
  1. Could Christianity or the Old Testament have been copied from Mitra?
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Not unless you call God “the Lord of wide pastures”. Very little is known about Persian Mitra.
  1. Wasn’t Mitra before the Old Testament and Christianity?
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Yes. Mitra or Mithra is an ancient Indo-European deity, found in Persia and India. But we know very little about him. In Persia he was subsumed into Zoroastrianism at a remote period. All that we know about Persian Mitra is from Zoroastrian texts. These were transmitted orally for centuries, and only written down in the 4th century AD. They sometimes show signs of responding to the threat of Christianity, on the rise in Persia in that period and eventually to become the equal of Zoroastrianism in Persia in the late 6th century. But most Zoroastrian texts were destroyed by the Moslems after the 7th century invasions. The ones that survive do so among the Parsees in India, and are extant only in copies from the 13th century onwards.

So … our information about Mitra is very late and very unsatisfactory.

Don’t bother about “copying Mitra”; the people who say this really want to claim that Christianity is a copy of Mithras, the Roman deity. But that isn’t tenable today, so they try to use Mitra. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no links whatever between Mitra and the OT or Christianity.

You will find it very hard to find any good information about Mitra. That’s because it is indeed very hard to get any. Have a read of the Zoroastrian texts online for him.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
 
roger_pearse said:
Not unless you call God “the Lord of wide pastures”. Very little is known about Persian Mitra.

Yes. Mitra or Mithra is an ancient Indo-European deity, found in Persia and India.
Don’t bother about “copying Mitra”; the people who say this really want to claim that Christianity is a copy of Mithras, the Roman deity. But that isn’t tenable today, so they try to use Mitra. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no links whatever between Mitra and the OT or Christianity.

You will find it very hard to find any good information about Mitra. That’s because it is indeed very hard to get any. Have a read of the Zoroastrian texts online for him.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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So when people are talking about copying, they aren’t talking about Mitra, they’re talking about Mithras, who Christianity ALSO did NOT copy from?
 
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