Mitochondrial Eve - 200,000 Years Ago?

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Do you like a good mystery story, brothers and sisters? Of all posts here on the Mitochondrial Mutation Clock(MMC), none has looked at the big picture. Let’s do just that, by summarizing MMC history.

Date : Event : Comment

1987: MMC was proposed - age of man ~ 200,000 yrs :
Key premises - Maternal inheritance and constant mutation rate

1997-98: Mutation rate 18 times > expected is found :
Human age now < 10,000 years - Media promotes Biblical age

1999-2001: Research of MMC assumptions :
Disproofs of 2 MMC assumptions are found

2002: MMC discredited : Human age again unknown

The premises went unchecked for 10 yrs ; then, after Biblical age is implied, both premises are hastily disproved in 2 years!

Evolutionists were perfectly content to use the MMC to date events, so long as that clock was artificially based on assumption and speculation and yielded results that conformed to Darwin’s perspective. Then, in an attempt to develop a more accurate dating method for evolution, they somehow managed to place mitochondrial Eve perfectly into the Creationist model and disprove the ‘out-of-Africa’ theory.

The exact quote from 1998 research:

*…mtDNA molecular clock would result in an age of only ~6,500 y.a., clearly incompatible with the known age of modern humans. … it remains implausible to explain the known geographic distribution of mtDNA sequence variation by human migration that occurred only in the last ~6,500 years. *

Now MMC research has been terminated - the investigators were being led in a direction they definitely did not expect or desire! Following a dark root of Darwin’s tree, the moles of Darwin suddenly encountered a light of truth, and scurried around to seal it off.

John 3:19 …… and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 For all you are the children of light, and children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The calculation of mutation rate presumes divergence from hominids 1,000,000 yrs ago. This implies mitochondrial Eve’s mom and dad were chimps. If we believe this, then we’re all chumps.

The researchers …… used paleontology and additional molecular data to determine the age of the supposed common ancestor.

Let’s skip the vague references. The divergence date uses the fossil record, which is dated ultimately by the same radioactive dating method that told us Mt. St. Helens last erupted 1,3000,000 yrs ago. My, time went fast; the pictures were on TV in 1980!

The MMC will be used to find the same chimp-human separation date that was used to calibrate it ! Classic circular reasoning, an evolution trademark.

There are also mutation contradictions found from population genetics:

**#1: **Rates of mutation high enough to account for the ape-human split would lead to the rapid death of the species. … A lower rate of mutation would make the assumed evolution of apes and humans from a common ancestor impossible. If the rate of mutation really is high, then the human race must be very young and on the way to extinction. David Plaisted

**#2: **Neo-Darwinists use a rate of positive gene mutation based on fossil dating the alleged chimp-to-Adam evolution. But trans-species mutations have never been observed anywhere, anytime. Forced mutation experiments on millions of fruit flies and hundreds of trees using irradiation and chemicals have yielded a positive mutation rate of … zero! nil! nada!

Then there’s Haldane’s Dilemma, recommended for research only by any Patristic Catholics here. Thevolutionists beware! Don’t choke on your Google results.
 
To me, evolutionary creation and theistic evolution are synonyms. But I prefer the older term theistic evolution. Evolutionary creation is the less common term. Everyone I think agrees at least parts of Genesis 1-3 are symbolic (e.g. talking snake, etc).

No problem with what you said wildleaf. Chardin was a famous paleontologist and accepted a form of theistic evolution, but if I understand right, took this in a bit unorthodox fashion by suggesting we are all evolving to an "Omega Point" or godhood in a kind of a "new age" version of evolution. But I haven’t read Chardin himself, only heard and read about what he believed.

Phil P
 
Roben << The divergence date uses the fossil record, which is dated ultimately by the same radioactive dating method that told us Mt. St. Helens last erupted 1,3000,000 yrs ago. My, time went fast; the pictures were on TV in 1980! >>

Please stop the nonsense.

Read Dalrymple and be done with this. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. There are many different radiometric (or isotopic) dating methods, they have been tested for over 50 years, and literally hundreds of thousands of dates have been published. They know what they are doing.

“Radiometric dating has not been applied to just a few selected rocks from the geologic record. Literally many tens of thousands of radiometric age measurements are documented in the scientific literature. Since beginning operation in the early 1960s, the Geochronology laboratories of the U. S. Geological Survey in Menlo Park, California, have alone produced more than 20,000 K-Ar, Rb-Sr, and Carbon-14 ages. Add to this number the age measurements made by from 50 to 100 other laboratories worldwide, and it is easy to see that the number of radiometric ages produced over the past two to three decades and published in the scientific literature must easily exceed 100,000. Taken as a whole, these data clearly prove that the Earth’s history extends backward from the present to at least 3.8 billion years into the past.” (Dalrymple, 1984 U.S. Geological Survey response to creationism)

This was over 20 years ago.

Phil P
 
Roben << Do you like a good mystery story, brothers and sisters? Of all posts here on the Mitochondrial Mutation Clock(MMC), none has looked at the big picture. >>

Not true. We can read Alec’s posts above and get the big picture.

Here is Alec’s article on Mitochondrial Eve replying to the misunderstandings by creationists. Your science is mistaken. We need to get the science right.

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
Roben << The divergence date uses the fossil record, which is dated ultimately by the same radioactive dating method that told us Mt. St. Helens last erupted 1,3000,000 yrs ago. My, time went fast; the pictures were on TV in 1980! >>

Please stop the nonsense.

Read Dalrymple and be done with this. The earth is 4.5 billion years old. There are many different radiometric (or isotopic) dating methods, they have been tested for over 50 years, and literally hundreds of thousands of dates have been published. They know what they are doing.

“Radiometric dating has not been applied to just a few selected rocks from the geologic record. Literally many tens of thousands of radiometric age measurements are documented in the scientific literature. Since beginning operation in the early 1960s, the Geochronology laboratories of the U. S. Geological Survey in Menlo Park, California, have alone produced more than 20,000 K-Ar, Rb-Sr, and Carbon-14 ages. Add to this number the age measurements made by from 50 to 100 other laboratories worldwide, and it is easy to see that the number of radiometric ages produced over the past two to three decades and published in the scientific literature must easily exceed 100,000. Taken as a whole, these data clearly prove that the Earth’s history extends backward from the present to at least 3.8 billion years into the past.” (Dalrymple, 1984 U.S. Geological Survey response to creationism)

This was over 20 years ago.

Phil P
Here is our own Philvaz debating with Sungenis
 
buffalo << Here is our own Philvaz debating with Sungenis >>

I spent a month replying to this here:

Part 1 on theology, Part 2 on age of the earth, Part 3 on evolution.

Sungenis has not replied. He only attempted a short reply to the first part on theology in his questions/answers. The rest has been ignored. Hugh Miller one of his Kolbe Center people sent me a reply to some of Parts 2 and 3, but it is really not worth answering. I might post it up on my site anyway.

Aside from hitting him over the head with a sledgehammer of scientific evidence as I have done, I don’t know what else would convince Sungenis the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that evolution is true. His opposition to science and reason and opposing this against faith is not good Catholic theology, as you probably know. Read John Paul II, Benedict XVI, or St. Thomas Aquinas.

Phil P
 
Phil:

Consider this philosophical proposition:

God created the earth in 6 literal days using accelerated natural processes. Everything that occured would leave evidence behind such that WERE the processes to occur in our sense of time in the manner they appeared to occur, they would take around 4.5 billion years to complete. There may some conflicts from different areas of study due to issues of dynamic similarity, etc.

There is no way to falsify this proposition. It may be true, but the modern philosophy of science will not deal with it.

Could God do this?

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
Mark << There is no way to falsify this proposition. It may be true, but the modern philosophy of science will not deal with it. Could God do this? >>

God could do this, just as he could have created the universe last Thursday, with implanted memories in each of us. I agree, no way to falsify it. Which is why it isn’t science. A scientific hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable.

If God deliberately planted all this misleading evidence for an old earth, but the earth is actually young, we got problems. I’ve quoted what scientists think of this:

“One can suppose that the Creator saw fit to play deceitful tricks on geologists and biologists. He carefully arranged to have various rocks provided with isotope ratios just right to mislead us into thinking that certain rocks are 2 billion years old, others 2 million, which in fact they are only some 6,000 years old. This kind of pseudo-explanation is not very new. One of the early antievolutionists, P. H. Gosse, published a book entitled Omphalos (‘the Navel’). The gist of this amazing book is that Adam, though he had no mother, was created with a navel, and that fossils were placed by the Creator where we find them now – a deliberate act on His part, to give the appearance of great antiquity and geologic upheaveals. It is easy to see the fatal flaw in all such notions. They are blasphemies, accusing God of absurd deceitfulness. This is as revolting as it is uncalled for…Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. As pointed out above, the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.” (Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution")

And your response to Dobzhansky is what?

Phil P
 
Adam with a navel. 😃
That would mean that man evolved from the ancestors of primates, and those evolved from some small furry mammal, and those from some phyla which had the potential for navels.

And who said Adam had a navel anyway, how can you know that.

Originally there wasnt an Eve, I think the story goes, and there might not have been, ever, except that Adam started to complain. :rolleyes:

The story is that Eve was created using genetic material from Adam, his rib, so Eve wouldnt need a navel either, I suppose.

About Radiometric Ages - we are living inside the system, according to the science, for 14 billion yrs, how do we actually know that radiometric decay always had the same value and always will. In a geologic time scale scientific measurements really only compare values of rates of decay measured within a fraction of a second of the geologic clock, to use an analogy.
 
**REALLY?? Could you give us some examples of ‘transitional forms’ accepted in the past that are rejected as such today? **

I’ll give you one rather notorious one. NEBRASKA MAN.
It turned out to be the tooth of an extinct pig.

I’m at work now, but I’ll GOOGLE around for the others at home tonight.

As for “deep study” of evolutionary biology, no because I am not a scientist and never claimed to be. Nonetheless, I have read the arguments of numerous evolutionary scientists and their books against creationism (the 6 day version of I also don’t agree with), and I am simply not convinced.

Love,
Jaypeeto3
 
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PhilVaz:
Mark << There is no way to falsify this proposition. It may be true, but the modern philosophy of science will not deal with it. Could God do this? >>

God could do this, just as he could have created the universe last Thursday, with implanted memories in each of us. I agree, no way to falsify it. Which is why it isn’t science. A scientific hypothesis must be testable and falsifiable.

If God deliberately planted all this misleading evidence for an old earth, but the earth is actually young, we got problems. I’ve quoted what scientists think of this:

“One can suppose that the Creator saw fit to play deceitful tricks on geologists and biologists. He carefully arranged to have various rocks provided with isotope ratios just right to mislead us into thinking that certain rocks are 2 billion years old, others 2 million, which in fact they are only some 6,000 years old. This kind of pseudo-explanation is not very new. One of the early antievolutionists, P. H. Gosse, published a book entitled Omphalos (‘the Navel’). The gist of this amazing book is that Adam, though he had no mother, was created with a navel, and that fossils were placed by the Creator where we find them now – a deliberate act on His part, to give the appearance of great antiquity and geologic upheaveals. It is easy to see the fatal flaw in all such notions. They are blasphemies, accusing God of absurd deceitfulness. This is as revolting as it is uncalled for…Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. As pointed out above, the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.” (Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution")

And your response to Dobzhansky is what?

Phil P
I have an issue when someone claims God was deceitful. Looking through the narrow lens of science leaves much open. God could have done it this way without being deceitful. How about we just haven’t figured it all out yet?
 
Jaypeeto3 said:
**REALLY?? Could you give us some examples of ‘transitional forms’ accepted in the past that are rejected as such today? **

I’ll give you one rather notorious one. NEBRASKA MAN.
It turned out to be the tooth of an extinct pig.

I think that you need to do a little research on the definition of a transitional form.
As for “deep study” of evolutionary biology, no because I am not a scientist and never claimed to be. Nonetheless, I have read the arguments of numerous evolutionary scientists and their books against creationism (the 6 day version of I also don’t agree with), and I am simply not convinced.
It is interesting that you admit that you haven’t studied evolutionary biology yet you are very willing to dismiss the findings of those that have spent a large part of their lives studying the subject in depth. Why is it, do you think, that scientists might be a little less than willing to listen to your arguments?

Peace

Tim
 
Orogeny,
what a smart-alecky post.
I don’t expect scientists to listen to my “arguments.”
I stated that I have read many of THEIRS and remain unconvinced.
Nonetheless, I see no inherent contradiction between macroevolution and the Christian faith. I simply am not convinced.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3
 
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buffalo:
I have an issue when someone claims God was deceitful. Looking through the narrow lens of science leaves much open. God could have done it this way without being deceitful. How about we just haven’t figured it all out yet?
LOL Buffalo, I have more than an “issue”. God can not be deceitful. But as you say, until we have experienced the Beautific (spelling is wrong I know) Vision, there is much that we won’t understand. If we understood everything, we would be God.

This being said, it doesn’t preclude God from “planting” evidence of an “old earth” if it serves the greater Truth to reveal Himself to us. A proper understanding of salvation history is that HIS story is one of love for us and how He intervenes in the world to reveal Himself and show His love. In our limited capacity as humans, we are neither able to fully understand or discern the methods of His revelation and intervention in the world.
 
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Jaypeeto3:
Orogeny,
what a smart-alecky post.
That was not my intent. Sorry if you read it that way.
I don’t expect scientists to listen to my “arguments.”
I stated that I have read many of THEIRS and remain unconvinced.
Nonetheless, I see no inherent contradiction between macroevolution and the Christian faith. I simply am not convinced.
That is fine. However, their arguments are much more convincing if you understand some of the science. I don’t think, though, that the intent of scientists that study evolutionary biology is to convince the general public that evolution is true.

Peace

Tim
 
No harm done.
Sorry to have over-reacted.

I guess what I’m looking for in the evidence for macro-evolution are transitional forms. I note archaeopteryx, and I think that one is legitimate, but in the primate evolution I’ll need a lot of convincing. I know how some creationists misquote Donald Johanssen to make it look like “LUCY” was a total fraud, and I don’t think that is fair, either.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3
 
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PhilVaz:


“One can suppose that the Creator saw fit to play deceitful tricks on geologists and biologists. …”

And your response to Dobzhansky is what?

Phil P
First, buffalo had the right answer:
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buffalo:
I have an issue when someone claims God was deceitful. Looking through the narrow lens of science leaves much open. God could have done it this way without being deceitful. How about we just haven’t figured it all out yet?
You actually did too, until you tried explaining it:
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Phil:
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Mark:
Couild God do this?
God could do this…
God is not deceitful. Using your logic I can prove geocentrism.
  1. Phil says God would not deliberately plant misleading evidence.
  2. For thousands of years man saw the sun, stars, planets etc. going around them.
  3. Man has not demonstrated the earth moves (in a manner distinguishable from counter movement of the universe).
Therefor, geocentrism is true, and heliocentrism (or acentrism w/ a barycentric solar system) must be false, because God would not deliberately plant misleading evidence.. All data can be considered "misleading "or “deceitful”, until you understand it, and usually, our understanding of the data changes as we undersand more.

I was not saying God was being deceitful or misleading. I just proposed that He may have chosen to use accelerated natural processes in the process of creating the universe, and in doing so, because of the extremely high energy levels which would be required to accelerate 4.5 apparent billion years (i.e., 4.5 billion years to accomplish the task at energy levels presently being experienced in the universe) in 6 days, He would be operating in a physics beyond which we have any experience. The signs left behind could lead one to the wrong conclusions if one started with the wrong assumptions.That is not deceitfulness, just the wrong reading of the data.

It does not matter whether it is science or not. In fact I said it was a philosophical proposition. Remember, the Church is not anti-science, but nor has it elevated science to the level of being the ultimate arbiter of all kowledge.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
I Leatherman:
And who said Adam had a navel anyway, how can you know that.
As Phil’s quote from Theodosius Dobzhansky said, the proposal was made by Philip H Gosse, a Creationist, in his book “Omphalos”.
I Leatherman:
how do we actually know that radiometric decay always had the same value
By observation. Looking at distant stars we can see what was happening many years ago. Both novae and supernovae produce radioactive isotopes and we can observe their decay rates in the light from them. All observations so far show that the rates of radioactive decay have remained unchanged for many millions of years. For further details see Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective which covers the subject well. The question you asked has already been asked, and answered, by scientists. Decay rates have indeed been constant for a very long time.

Wiens’ article also talks about the “Is God a deciever” question:It would not be inconsistent with the scientific evidence to conclude that God made everything relatively recently, but with the appearance of great age, just as Genesis 1 and 2 tell of God making Adam as a fully grown human (which implies the appearance of age). This idea was captured by Phillip Henry Gosse in the book, “Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot”, written just two years before Darwin’s “Origin of Species”. The idea of a false appearance of great age is a philosophical and theological matter that we won’t go into here. The main drawback–and it is a strong one–is that this makes God appear to be a deceiver. However, some people have no problem with this. Certainly whole civilizations have been incorrect (deceived?) in their scientific and theological ideas in the past. Whatever the philosophical conclusions, it is important to note that an apparent old Earth is consistent with the great amount of scientific evidence.

rossum
 
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trth_skr:
In fact I said it was a philosophical proposition. Remember, the Church is not anti-science, but nor has it elevated science to the level of being the ultimate arbiter of all kowledge.
Is that a bovine university?

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist…)
 
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