Mitre : The Pope Hat is Pagan?

[St_Violet]

Hello. you know where I live it’s really not a catholic friendly place. I usually do not debate because debate usually goes no where these days, but I do tell people I will glady answer Questions concerning the Catholic Church, I must admit I do joke around making fun of my own church when people says something that is anti catholic or just plain idiotic and insulting, I decided this was a better way then to gettng angry or frustrated and at the same time it gets my point across.

like for example these two ladies were talking about the “silly hats” popes and bishops wear, the robes, catholics wasting their time praying to mary etc etc and laughing about it and then started to talk about how evil the catholic church is, bringing up it’s history, doctrines and all that . ( these ladies didn’t know I am a catholic) , then I began smiling joking around too, and so I said " and check this out did you hear that the Vatican donated $10,000 to the poor in africa, I mean sheesh can the Catholic Church be anymore evil?!" and i walked away shaking my head, laughing

anyways I am curious about the meaning and the orgins of the Pope’s hat, is it really pagan?, does it represent this " fish GOD" I hear soo much from protestants

 

[LilyM]

Hello. you know where I live it’s really not a catholic friendly place. I usually do not debate because debate usually goes no where these days, but I do tell people I will glady answer Questions concerning the Catholic Church, I must admit I do joke around making fun of my own church when people says something that is anti catholic or just plain idiotic and insulting, I decided this was a better way then to gettng angry or frustrated and at the same time it gets my point across.

like for example these two ladies were talking about the “silly hats” popes and bishops wear, the robes, catholics wasting their time praying to mary etc etc and laughing about it and then started to talk about how evil the catholic church is, bringing up it’s history, doctrines and all that . ( these ladies didn’t know I am a catholic) , then I began smiling joking around too, and so I said " and check this out did you hear that the Vatican donated $10,000 to the poor in africa, I mean sheesh can the Catholic Church be anymore evil?!" and i walked away shaking my head, laughing

anyways I am curious about the meaning and the orgins of the Pope’s hat, is it really pagan?, does it represent this " fish GOD" I hear soo much from protestants

The Pope’s hat (bishops wear similar - they’re called mitres) are based on those of the priests in the Temple in Jerusalem, not on any pagan deity. And if they were - so? Christmas was originally a pagan feast, I presume your Protestant friends celebrate that!

 

[Yerusalyim]

Actually, it’s based NOT on the head gear of the folks in the Temple, but rather on (Christian) Byzantine officisas…this from WIKIDPEDIA.

The camelaucum or καμιλαύκιον, the headdress both the Western mitre and the Papal tiara stem from, was originally a cap used by officials of the Imperial Byzantine court. In the late Empire it developed into the closed type of Imperial crown.

The closed crown of the Patriarchs DOES resemble the Turban worn by the Priests in the temple…but I think that’s an accident.

So what if something we as Catholics do is mirrored by pagans? Satan is a copy cat…almost ever Christian and Jewish theme can be tied to something Pagan…heck, the Passover has pagan roots.

 

[Chancellare]

Anybody can fish out historical evidence that such and such is a pagan thing. In fact the most basic things such as christmas tree or gothic architecture, use altars for worship, the obelisk, etc are known to be of of pagan origin. If we go by this rule, even your anti-catholic friends will also have admit being pagans too.

 

[LilyM]

Actually, it’s based NOT on the head gear of the folks in the Temple, but rather on (Christian) Byzantine officisas…this from WIKIDPEDIA.
The closed crown of the Patriarchs DOES resemble the Turban worn by the Priests in the temple…but I think that’s an accident.

So what if something we as Catholics do is mirrored by pagans? Satan is a copy cat…almost ever Christian and Jewish theme can be tied to something Pagan…heck, the Passover has pagan roots.

Thanks for the correction.

The Passover has pagan roots? Please explain

 

[misbehavens]

I also have a question regarding Pagan roots. I’m not sure if this belongs in its own thread but I will just ask it here.

I have been dialogging with an atheist friend who says that the roots of Judaism really have to do with polytheism being against the law, thus the beginning of monotheism. I have never heard this before. But he quoted the name of the professor, at a local community college, who probably teaches some history/world religions course that he heard this from.

my question is related to the original question in a roundabout way because my concern is when someone brings up that catholicism has pagan roots, the question comes to mind “well then why do the Catholics think that they are so right? Shouldn’t they be Pagan if they have Pagan roots?” or "they speak about paganism being a bad thing, but they have pagan roots so their church/religion is flawed from the start.

what are your thoughts?
–Andrew

 

[Yerusalyim]

Yes, the passover has pagan roots. There was a feast of unleaven bread celebrated by many of the pagan middle eastern tribes before the birth of Judaism, and there was even a feast celebrating the redemption of the first born…these celebrations were combined and given Jewish meanings.

But he quoted the name of the professor, at a local community college, who probably teaches some history/world religions course that he heard this from.

There is an arguement to be made that as the Hebrews settled into Canaan that many of them began to adopt the local gods along with worship of Yahew and that to retain control the temple was built…and then rebuilt…in Jerusalem. But who cares what some professor at a local college says…some professors think that the US government is who destoryed the World Trade Center on 9-11.

Yes, you can find pagan roots everywhere you turn…so?..Satan is a good imitator…and mankinds religious needs are somewhat the same…so you’ll find common themes.

 

[kellie]

Isn’t it called Passover because God spared the first borns in those houses of the Jews that He had warned to splash lamb’s blood on their front doors?

So death “passed over” their house? They then had to eat up all their food before heading to the desert for 40 days to reach the promised land, hence fasting during Lent.

Or have I got everything mixed up?

 

[Hesychios]

…anyways I am curious about the meaning and the orgins of the Pope’s hat, is it really pagan?, does it represent this " fish GOD" I hear soo much from protestants

The use of hats predates Christianity, the shape they take is a matter of fashion and function.

The western mitre has pretty much evolved from a type of cap, and it did not exist in pagan times. The shape (and function) are purely Christian.



I personally think the shorter ones look much better and less grandiose than the current models.

In the east, the mitre is a type of crown, bulbous like the earlier western mitres, which came to the Christian bishops from the Roman empire. Bishops were given a privileged place at court and a stipend from the government, and they began to wear the imperial court regalia with their formal clothes. I believe the crown was worn by governors, but I am not sure.

http://www.oca.org/Images/HolySynod/FramedPics/bioirineu.gif

The empire collapsed in the west much earlier so the imperial court had much less lasting influence there.

 

[Hesychios]

I also have a question regarding Pagan roots. I’m not sure if this belongs in its own thread but I will just ask it here.

I have been dialogging with an atheist friend who says that the roots of Judaism really have to do with polytheism being against the law, thus the beginning of monotheism. I have never heard this before. But he quoted the name of the professor, at a local community college, who probably teaches some history/world religions course that he heard this from.

my question is related to the original question in a roundabout way because my concern is when someone brings up that catholicism has pagan roots, the question comes to mind “well then why do the Catholics think that they are so right? Shouldn’t they be Pagan if they have Pagan roots?” or "they speak about paganism being a bad thing, but they have pagan roots so their church/religion is flawed from the start.

what are your thoughts?
–Andrew

Ancient Judaism was not strictly monotheistic. It was henotheistic (Devotion to one god, while accepting the existence of others). It was during the Babyonian exile that Jewish scholars came to realize that the foreign Gods did not actually exist in any way. It was not that other gods were more powerful at times but that Yahveh was lord over all peoples (as yet unrecognized by other nations). This is why they could say that Yahveh sometimes allows things to happen to the chosen people as punishment for disobeying Him.

The will of God is never defeated, and He can be honored in all places, even in captivity in foreign lands, as a way of returning to His favor.

The henotheistic Samaritans seem not to have learned strict monotheism by the time of the return, and it was probably the source of conflict between the two groups. The two schools of thought were competing for the following of the ordinary common Israelites and Judahites whose families had not been deported and remained in the countryside during the exile. By the time of Jesus the Samaritans had lost much of their following and been marginalized to a great extent.

The centralizing of all sacrificial worship in Jerusalem seems to have been a political act. It did not lead directly to monotheism but probably helped the transition when it came.

 

[Zooey]

Anybody can fish out historical evidence that such and such is a pagan thing. In fact the most basic things such as christmas tree or gothic architecture, use altars for worship, the obelisk, etc are known to be of of pagan origin. If we go by this rule, even your anti-catholic friends will also have admit being pagans too.

You know what? I bet that every pagan who has ever lived, or who is now living has two arms and two legs, too! What are these friends planning to do about that?? Consult the “scientists” in that silly ad about re-attaching rabbits’ feet, and get a couple new limbs added??
Because that’s how silly this stuff sounds. (And by the bye, what possible resemblence does the bishops’ headgear have to a fish, anyway??? Who thinks up these things???)

 

[LilyM]

(And by the bye, what possible resemblence does the bishops’ headgear have to a fish, anyway??? Who thinks up these things???)

Only to someone who’s squinting at it from a distance whilst under the influence of hallucinogens :hypno:

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Well, in modern times,
Alexander Hislop’s book THE TWO BABYLONS
popularized the idea that the papal mitre was
really the mitre of the fish-god Dagon of the Philistines.
That’s probably where the fundie ladies got the idea.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The Pope’s hat (bishops wear similar - they’re called mitres) are based on those of the priests in the Temple in Jerusalem, not on any pagan deity. And if they were - so? Christmas was originally a pagan feast, I presume your Protestant friends celebrate that!

Hi Lilly, you can’t assume that all protestants celebrate Christmas and Easter. In fact, some claim that both are of pagan orgins and do not celebrate either. Yes, they do take those days off from work with pay like everyone else. If they really believed that those days were not true christian holidays, then they should work on those days. Even thou I once knew a man named Henry who was consistent and did work on those days.

By the Way, You can turn the “fish god” around by pointing out that the symbol of the fish was a secret way of identiflying fellow christians back when the church was under persicution by the roman goverment.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yes, the passover has pagan roots. There was a feast of unleaven bread celebrated by many of the pagan middle eastern tribes before the birth of Judaism, and there was even a feast celebrating the redemption of the first born…these celebrations were combined and given Jewish meanings.

What is your primary sources for this claim? a reference to Ancient Near Eastern Texts will surfice.

If Satan counterfieted the trinity for example it is because he saw the triune God in heaven before his fall. One does not counterfiet a three dollar bill and expect to spend it.

Much of the copycat thesis is nonsense – for example the concept of reincarnation is not the same thing as resurrection and yet some hindus have redefined ressurrection to mean reincarnation to claim that the bible copied one of their pagan gods like krishna. ( this is based on oral discussion with hindus ).

google.com/search?hl=en&q=copycat+thesis+examined&btnG=Google+Search

freerepublic.com/forum/a3b3a47345f84.htm

abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread13943/pg1

christian-thinktank.com/copycatwho1.html
christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html

tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=copycat+thesis+&btnG=Search

It is true that many things in our culture has pagan roots like the names of the months of our calendars are named after pagan gods. The wedding ring I think may have pagan roots.

A good example of where a pagan practice was used by God in the Bible is known as “cutting the covenant” in Genesis 15.

Cutting Covenants and Cutting Animals: Biblical Rituals and Idioms Bruce William Jones
csub.edu/~bjones/cutdeal2.txt

csub.edu/~bjones/cut-deal.txt

bible.org/page.php?page_id=94

So What, if something has a pagan parallel, it is God who cleansed the practice to use it in judaism or in the church.

Look at both Christmas and Easter, it is Jesus who is glorified, not the pagan gods or pagan roots source.

So What, if the church used the date of a pagan ritual for Christmas, it was done for the purpose of giving new christians a way out of the temptation to go to the pagan temple on that day, but instead go to church. Basically, one must look at the purpose for using that date.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hello. you know where I live it’s really not a catholic friendly place. I usually do not debate because debate usually goes no where these days, but I do tell people I will glady answer Questions concerning the Catholic Church, I must admit I do joke around making fun of my own church when people says something that is anti catholic or just plain idiotic and insulting, I decided this was a better way then to gettng angry or frustrated and at the same time it gets my point across.

like for example these two ladies were talking about the “silly hats” popes and bishops wear, the robes,

No sillier than the Queen’s Coronation Robes. Both are forms of dressing up for a special purpose. And why not ?​

…

anyways I am curious about the meaning and the orgins of the Pope’s hat, is it really pagan?, does it represent this " fish GOD" I hear soo much from protestants

No. It does not.​

The story can be found here, in this book, which is a treasury of anti-Catholic mythology; it has been immensely influential - yet its intellectual value is close to nil. If you hear of Easter being called after Ishtar, or of how Tammuz is the son of Semiramis, and was the Babylonian Messiah, or that the Trinity-doctrine was invented in Babylon - this book is the source: philologos.org/__eb-ttb/sect61.htm

• “The two-horned mitre, which the Pope wears, when he sits on the high altar at Rome and receives the adoration of the Cardinals, is the very mitre worn by Dagon, the fish-god of the Philistines and Babylonians. There were two ways in which Dagon was anciently represented. The one was when he was depicted as half-man half-fish; the upper part being entirely human, the under part ending in the tail of a fish. The other was, when, to use the words of Layard, “the head of the fish formed a mitre above that of the man, while its scaly, fan-like tail fell as a cloak behind, leaving the human limbs and feet exposed.” Of Dagon in this form Layard gives a representation in his last work, which is here represented to the reader (Fig. 48); and no one who examines his mitre, and compares it with the Pope’s as given in Elliot’s Horae, can doubt for a moment that from that, and no other source, has the pontifical mitre been derived. The gaping jaws of the fish surmounting the head of the man at Nineveh are the unmistakable counterpart of the horns of the Pope’s mitre at Rome…”
  It seems almost a pity to point out that that the mitre was originally almost flat, not pointed at all - & that there is a difference beyween wearing a hat that looks vaguely like a fish’s open jaws, & wearing an entire artificial fish-skin. The mitre is related to the academic cap - both are developments of a cap of Byzantine origin called in Latin camelaucum, which gave rise to the mitre, beret, & academic cap.

Dagon was in any case not a fish-god. The book this is taken from is 140 years old - it is badly out of date. Old books can be good for ideas, but not for archaeology; & this is is a matter of interpreting archaeological data

Enjoy

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This is the sculpture - or one like it - that is behind all the fuss

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[KarenNC]

resemblence does the bishops’ headgear have to a fish, anyway??? Who thinks up these things???)

In an Episcopal service once, I did see an Episcopal bishop take off his hat and use it like a fish puppet --wish I could remember the context fully, but this was almost 20 years ago. I believe it was in relation to fishers of men, but could be mistaken

 

[BelFarfalla]

The hats used by the Pope and others at the vatican were not used until the 1400’s. So its propbably not true that they came from some pagan source.

Zucchetto
newadvent.org/cathen/15765b.htm

Mitre

The pontifical mitre is of Roman origin: it is derived from a non-liturgical head-covering distinctive of the pope, the camelaucum, to which also the tiara is to be traced. The camelaucum was worn as early as the beginning of the eighth century, as is shown by tho biography of Pope Constantine I (708- 815) in the “Liber Pontificalis” . The same headcovering is also mentioned in the so-called “Donation of Constantine”. The Ninth Ordo states that the camelaucum was made of white stuff and shaped like a helmet. The coins of Sergius III (904-11) and of Benedict VII (974-83), on which St. Peter is portrayed wearing a camelaucum, give the cap the form of a cone, the original shape of the mitre. The camelaucum was worn by the pope principally during solemn processions. The mitre developed from the camelaucum in this way: in the course of the tenth century the pope began to wear this head-covering not merely during processions to the church, but also during the subsequent church service. Whether any influence was exerted by the recollection of the sacerdotal head-ornament of the high-priest of the Old Testament is not known, but probably not–at least there is no trace of any such influence. It was not until the mitre was universally worn by bishops that it was called an imitation of the Jewish sacredotal head-ornament.
newadvent.org/cathen/10404a.htm

 

[Rocky]

Christmas was originally a pagan feast, I presume your Protestant friends celebrate that!

No, Christmas has always been a Christian Feast. The name comes from Christ Mass, after all. The date of December 25 has been challenged, however, as a pagan feast date because the Romans has a feast day for the Sun on December 25. However, the beginning of this feast day seems to be in the middle of the third century. And I am sure that I have read somewhere that the pagan feast of the Sun was to counteract the growing (although still persecuted) Christian celebration of Christ’s birth.

And I think I read that the Christians celebrated Jesus’ birth in December because of some belief that He died on the same date (not day) that He was conceived, which was in the spring time.