Mixed feelings about others

[goodcatholic]

Reading these posts, I am coming to the conclusion that we have to be very careful about how we interpret the Bible.
Real love may require us to ignore someone, believe it or not. Ignore their behaviour until it is respectful towards us. No point giving validation to people who don’t deserve it.
I think we need to go deeper than the Gospel message. “Love is patient. Love is kind.” it becomes a platitude after a while. A cliché.
We need fresh insights like the Colonel’s here, now and then to wake us up. Love is complex. Yes we need to respect scripture and the Church. But as I see it, we need to take risks in forming our own point of view. Now,. many will say this is heretical disobedient egotistical or even unCatholic. Yet that comes with the risk we take. Otherwise, its all just “pray and obey”. Don’t question. Don’t think.

 

[TheOldColonel]

The boundary violation likely will not end with you imposing sanctions. Bad behaviour should start costing them something they want from you.

 

[guanophore]

I believe forgiveness must be requested before granted. If not asked for it certainly will not be granted.

Frankly, this does not make much sense. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us! And in the Lord’s prayer, there is nothing that indicates we should wait to forgive others until they ask. If you take this approach ("it will certainly not be granted) then are you not poisoning your own soul with resentment?

Additionally, I never tell anyone else they should forgive. I find such advice inappropriate if I was not the offended party.

You can certainly exempt yourself from being a minister of God’s word, but Jesus does not even say that we must be the injured party to be obligated for forgiveness. If we do not encourage others to forgive, then we are withholding the Gospel from them!

I regularly see people gushing out forgiveness to some very uncontrite people as if it’s some sort of self-help technique. I think that makes forgiveness quite cheap and meaningless.

It may be, no one can know the soul of another. But Jesus has not asked us to wait until others are contrite to forgive them. I do think that forgiveness is beneficial to the one who forgives. It liberates us from resentment, and the toxicity that accompanies it. Unforgiveness is like a poison that we drink, expecting the other person to die! It is not rational. True forgiveness is never cheap or meaningless. True forgiveness transforms the soul from resentment to love and joy.

I feel no obligation to love anyone.

This is very interesting. So Jesus’ command to love is not an obligation?

If I love someone, it’s my choice.

I don’t see how this could be otherwise. Love is an act of the will.

If I don’t there’s always a good reason.

I am curious to know what kind of “good reason” you might have to support the refusal to obey the commandment of God.

The same holds true for whether I like someone as well.

Although you may place these on the same level, God does not. On the contrary, he calls us to love regardless of “like”, and often in the absence of “like”. I would say it is much more difficult to love those we don’t like, but that does not absolve us from the commandment.

I know Jesus is reputed as saying we should love our enemies. But I’ll never be onboard with that. I feel strongly that Love is not the appropriate sentiment for an enemy. I simply cannot do something I feel is wrong or misguided.

Are you honestly going to attempt to defend the position that Jesus commanded us to do something wrong and misguided?

Just out of curiosity, what is the appropriate “sentiment” for an enemy?

I think you are confusing feelings with love. The Love of God has nothing to do with “sentiment”.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Simply put, my relationships with other are not theologized. They are pragmatic. I find that more authentic than ignoring the obvious. I have no care whatsoever if you or others wish to disagree.

 

[guanophore]

I remove toxicity from my life. If a relationship becomes toxic, it’s over. It doesn’t matter if the relationship is with friends or family members or a spouse. If the relationship is important enough to save, then the one creating the toxicity if responsible for the clean-up.

Ahhh. Well, it seem that you do not see yourself as responsible for any of the toxicity, when in fact, your refusal to forgive others is a major source of toxicity. I agree with you, though. Refusal to forgive others does end relationships. We are all very fortunate that God did not take this position with us!

I make sure those around me know how I feel about these matters. That seems to foster both mutual respect and accountability. Many problems can be avoided just by letting others know how you feel.

While I agree with your statement, this has very little to do with the standard to which God has called us. “how I feel” is irrelevant when it comes to God’s standards for us with regard to love and forgiveness.

I know it doesn’t sound very Christian, but this works quite well for the Old Colonel.

At some point, you may benefit from moving beyond being a trauma survivor to becoming a Thriver!

most Christians have a false idea about what the Gospel requires. As you said, we aren’t supposed to “forgive” unrepentant sinners.

And we aren’t supposed to suffer toxic people who cause us to sin; Jesus t

This is absurd! Jesus forgave those who crucified Him, and they never made any sign of being repentant!

 

[goodcatholic]

I was surprised the Old Colonel lasted this long without getting lashed. Since his sentiments resonate with mine, I deserve as much criticism.

 

[guanophore]

And we aren’t supposed to suffer toxic people who cause us to sin; Jesus told us to cut off our right hand if it causes us to sin so I have no problem cutting off people who make me sin through anger etc.

more absurdity. No one causes you to sin. Jesus said to cut off those aspects of YOURSELF that cause you to sin, not others! No one can “make me sin through anger”. Such a position makes it clear that you are not taking responsibility for your own emotions, blaming your feelings and choices to sin on someone else. It is no different than Adam pointing the finger at Eve!

And we can’t love evil people who refuse to repent. I’ll pray for them but I won’t “love them.” I’ll do an act of mercy and admonish sinners. I’ll love them by showing them how to repent.

More absurdity! Jesus loved the World enough to die for our sins, while we were yet enslaved in them. He has called us to love others as He has loved us (not waiting for repentance). I think you must have a bent notion of what “love” is!

Christianity isn’t supposed to castrate us.

God would never command us to do something that had such a result!

Jesus is no wimp.

Indeed not! This is why he did not wait for others to repent before forgiving.

No point giving validation to people who don’t deserve it.

On the contrary, that is when people need validation the most!

I think we need to go deeper than the Gospel message. “Love is patient. Love is kind.” it becomes a platitude after a while. A cliché.

I agree absolutely. It is high time to get past platitudes and into carrying the cross.

 

[goodcatholic]

It is high time to get past platitudes and into carrying the cross.

Walk being louder than our talk. Agreed.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Agreed. People are very complex. I too have these mixed feelings. I struggle with that a lot. I wouldn’t worry too much about it - I think sometimes you can be as hard on yourself as you are on others. If you can get to believing better about your fellow men than experience or instinct warrants, may as well do it for yourself too. Not sure how “Lent” this argument is though.

 

[goodcatholic]

Not sure how “Lent” this argument is though.

Oops. You’re right. I should be a much better Catholic than I am now.

 

[Mary888]

You can use the memory of these feelings to remind yourself that God alone is perfect in His love. And ask Him to help you love them.

 

[guanophore]

Reading these posts, I am coming to the conclusion that we have to be very careful about how we interpret the Bible.

Yes, I think this is true in all cases.

Real love may require us to ignore someone, believe it or not. Ignore their behaviour until it is respectful towards us.

I agree with you. I do my best to avoid people who are hostile, mean, gossipy, etc. I don’t enjoy being around people who like to “party”, cuss, and engage in behaviors that I dont’ find life giving. I avoid abusive and aggressive/violent persons. I also agree with your principle of avoiding toxic persons. And your point about having boundaries is also very important. Being loving does not mean we are mamby pamby and have no boundaries!

. Yes we need to respect scripture and the Church. But as I see it, we need to take risks in forming our own point of view. Now,. many will say this is heretical disobedient egotistical or even unCatholic. Yet that comes with the risk we take.

I think it is beyond “respect scripture and the Church”, because a fully formed conscience will never contradict scripture or the Church. But I do agree, we need to take risks, and we need to determine for ourselves, within the teaching of Jesus revealed in Scripture and the Church, how to apply the priniciples He has revealed about how to conduct our relationships.

Otherwise, its all just “pray and obey”. Don’t question. Don’t think.

You are right, of course, God gave us our intellect and problem solving abilities, and it is our obligation to use them. I don’t think this excludes “pray and obey”, which can always apply in the presence of using our intellect.

 

[guanophore]

Simply put, my relationships with other are not theologized. They are pragmatic. I find that more authentic than ignoring the obvious.

I am puzzled why you see these as mutually exclusive? I guess because of what was said about “platitudes”? I think that Jesus came to show us how to make Him Lord of our lives, including Lord of our relationships with each other.

I agree, we should not “ignore the obvious”. This is not consistent with God’s revelation of Himself to man.

I have no care whatsoever if you or others wish to disagree.

One has to wonder why you posted on this thread!

I was surprised the Old Colonel lasted this long without getting lashed. Since his sentiments resonate with mine, I deserve as much criticism.

You guys are a fascinating set of peas in a pod!

Not sure how “Lent” this argument is though.

I think forgiving others who don’t “deserve” it, have not repented, and have not asked for it is very much Lenten. It is the taking up of a very painful cross.

I should be a much better Catholic than I am now.

I suspect this is the case for all of us. Have not met any pure saints in a LONG time.

 

[FollowChrist34]

No worries! I think this is a very Lenten exercise - all this self searching about how we struggle to love others! Or even like them. And they us.

 

[Saxum]

Such a position makes it clear that you are not taking responsibility for your own emotions, blaming your feelings and choices to sin on someone else. It is no different than Adam pointing the finger at Eve!

When I sin, I go to confession and make reparation. However, sometimes I am not responsible for the sins of other people. And some of these people are genuinely toxic. Toxic people are seriously detrimental to mental health and it isn’t wrong to cut them out of one’s life. It isn’t virtuous to allow toxic people to destroy one’s peace.

 

[guanophore]

However, sometimes I am not responsible for the sins of other people.

I would say that none of use are EVER responsible for the sins of others. But I was not talking about sins, I was talking about taking responsibilities for your own feelings, rather than taking the position that other people “make” you feel one way or another. Your feelings belong to you, and no one else can cause you to have them. They may trigger your issues, and you have an emotional response to your environment, but the feelings belong to you. The choices of what you do with your emotions belong to you.

And some of these people are genuinely toxic. Toxic people are seriously detrimental to mental health and it isn’t wrong to cut them out of one’s life.

No, and I am not saying it is, necessarily. Sometimes they are family members, or co-workers, and we cannot avoid them entirely. Sometimes we are in a position to cope with toxic people. I agree, avoiding toxicity is a good first line defense, but when that is not possible, there must be other coping mechanisms.

Then it has to be noted that God may have put certain persons in our lives so that He can sanctify us through them. This is a big part of marriage, for example. It has been said that we no longer need to find a camel’s hair shirt, since we have one living under our roof!

It isn’t virtuous to allow toxic people to destroy one’s peace.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. That means there is a way to find peace even in the presence of toxic persons. If this were not true, so many of the saints that lived in communities and were tortured by toxic superiors would not have become saints.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I believe that toxicity is (the most extreme form) of the path of least resistance. To me toxicity signifies selfish choices above others (and can be aggressive, dishonest, impulsive, angry, cruel). I am not saying this kind of behavior leads to happiness or peace or even always success in worldly terms (though it often undeniably does), my point is, it is usually ‘easier’ to choose wrong or evil over right and good. It is a sort of weakness. Lack of proper development of one’s humanity/dignity. Once I get to this point I call that forgiveness, I mean when considering this behavior at my expense. I have managed to see a weak, broken human being under this label - toxicity. So I separate the pain caused me or others from the person who did it. I would also advise caution - we all have these tendencies and show up on this trajectory at one point or another - in others’ eyes. This is sin.