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BrianH
Guest
In general that is how most United Methodist churches are, in general.
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
Interesting
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BrianH
Guest
And that is why the original poster is so upset. She comes from a tradition that is open and is learning about one that…holds a more restrictive view and it is obviously very hard on her.
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wifeandmomoftwo
Guest
sorry, but didnt she grasp that before the wedding?
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BrianH
Guest
Sadly for her situation, I do not believe so.
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Deconi
Guest
Firstly, Stromssa, congrats on your marriage and God’s Blessings.
The issues of your marriage, where and who were involved are now ‘immaterial’ because it is done. Many Catholics will raise questions of validity and possible errors by the priest involved, but as I say, these are now by and by issues. They are resolvable through time and understanding. What God has put together, let no man split asunder!
The fact that you ask questions means you are being moved by developments and circumstances to query, why these ‘instances’ occur around you, regarding your union.
The problems are multifaceted and at any given point you are susceptible to reach a decision based on your understanding and what you hold to be the truth and what people may say. It is important that you find the correct premise to work under and maintain that premise throughout.
Currently, you work under the premise that Catholicism and Methodist, since they are both forms of Christianity, are as valid and the other.
The problem is, THEY ARE NOT.
You need to investigate why that is! The fact that you have queries is or should be the start of something.
Holy Communion.
The difference is that in Methodist understanding, the Bread and Wine, is symbolic of he Last Supper and it is done in remembrance of The Last Supper. The bread remains bread, and the wine remains wine. In this case, ANYONE can partake ‘without consequences.’
In Catholicism, this is not the case. The Bread and Wine is literally, in every shape and form, the ACTUAL Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ! That being the case, how can any human approach God and literally eat His Body and DRINK His Blood?!!
Two things arise.
- God is Holy and SPOTLESS of sin. No sin may enter His presence, yet we are sinners, called to Him! How then can Catholics approach Him and accept The Eucharist in Catholicism?
Answer: By passing through the Sacrament(s) in Catholicism and participating in the Mass, BEFORE making that approach. Within the Mass, you profess and confess your sins before God and your ‘brothers and sisters’ in Christ, asking God’s forgiveness, REPEATEDLY, before Holy Communion. It is not something to be taken lightly, that anyone can just saunter on up and take “The Host” from the priest! (It is a sin otherwise, and God KNOWS every person’s heart, who “fraudulently” receives Holy Communion.) - Where the hell is all this from? Where is this understanding and ritual from?
The Methodists do not have that understanding because they departed from The Catholic Church, fearing the natural human arguments that, logically, this means Holy Communion is cannibalism. The Catholics are stuck with it because we did not make it up, and since Jesus Christ commenced Catholicism, we are bound to what He taught The Apostles.
…
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Deconi
Guest
…
Children as Catholics.
The children are just like you and your husband. Don’t get caught in “my church, your church” scenarios or opinions. They too will adopt this view in their lives if you two are undecided. The most important thing is WHAT DOES GOD say and want? That is the whole purpose of religion! It is not what people think, what is more popular, what feels good, or even what is more agreeable. God is the bottom line of everything, and nothing matters if what we decide on is NOT what He wants!
We can all argue our opinions and say that as long as we do our best and live holy or good lives, then, we should be fine. My opinion for instance is that because God came down here, walked and taught among humans, there is NOTHING left to chance! Everything has been taught and known that is necessary for our salvation.
Therefore, in regards the children, what is best for them? The reason the Catholics teach that the children should be raised Catholic, is NOT BECAUSE WE WANT MORE CATHOLICS! It is because we understand that because Jesus Christ started The Catholic Church, therefore it follows that Jesus, being God, calls everyone to be Catholic. Whilst the children are “unknowing” of the diversity of religions and the significance of those differences, it is better to start out with what will be beneficial for their souls salvation than start out with a “protesting” understanding of God’s Message!
As they grow through life, they will have their own questions and may ‘wander’ the religious field in their own search for The Truth! God’s Holy Will is not ours, nor the children’s. In time, they will exercise their ‘free will’ which, like ours, is free from interference of God. But with a good start, we hope and pray that their searches do not stray them too far from the knowledge of Him.
Finally.
Catholicism IS NOT A BELIEF.
IT IS A KNOWLEDGE! ** We know WHO God IS. We HOLD to all that He taught when He walked this Earth.** Not just through Scriptures, but through the things He taught His Apostles and they passed to us (Tradition) and what He gives through The Holy Spirit to The Church He started. (Magisterium)
Children as Catholics.
The children are just like you and your husband. Don’t get caught in “my church, your church” scenarios or opinions. They too will adopt this view in their lives if you two are undecided. The most important thing is WHAT DOES GOD say and want? That is the whole purpose of religion! It is not what people think, what is more popular, what feels good, or even what is more agreeable. God is the bottom line of everything, and nothing matters if what we decide on is NOT what He wants!
We can all argue our opinions and say that as long as we do our best and live holy or good lives, then, we should be fine. My opinion for instance is that because God came down here, walked and taught among humans, there is NOTHING left to chance! Everything has been taught and known that is necessary for our salvation.
Therefore, in regards the children, what is best for them? The reason the Catholics teach that the children should be raised Catholic, is NOT BECAUSE WE WANT MORE CATHOLICS! It is because we understand that because Jesus Christ started The Catholic Church, therefore it follows that Jesus, being God, calls everyone to be Catholic. Whilst the children are “unknowing” of the diversity of religions and the significance of those differences, it is better to start out with what will be beneficial for their souls salvation than start out with a “protesting” understanding of God’s Message!
As they grow through life, they will have their own questions and may ‘wander’ the religious field in their own search for The Truth! God’s Holy Will is not ours, nor the children’s. In time, they will exercise their ‘free will’ which, like ours, is free from interference of God. But with a good start, we hope and pray that their searches do not stray them too far from the knowledge of Him.
Finally.
Catholicism IS NOT A BELIEF.
IT IS A KNOWLEDGE! ** We know WHO God IS. We HOLD to all that He taught when He walked this Earth.** Not just through Scriptures, but through the things He taught His Apostles and they passed to us (Tradition) and what He gives through The Holy Spirit to The Church He started. (Magisterium)
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PatienceAndLove
Guest
Hate to break it to you, but the Catholic Church is the One True Church and we have the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
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BrianH
Guest
Yeah…you seem real broken up about it… LOL
Of course I disagree with your assessment as well.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
It is the predominant secular message of Western “culture”. It says that there is no such thing as truth and everyone is free to believe as they wish as long as it doesn’t mean anything. Humbug. The difference between Methodism and Catholicism, both East and West, is that Catholics believe that not only truth exists but that truth is knowable. Methodists do not share that assumption.
CDL
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PaulDupre
Guest
Yet another testimony as to why Catholics must not marry outside the faith - it only leads to heartbreak and agnostic children.
Lord have mercy,
Paul
Lord have mercy,
Paul
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BrianH
Guest
Doesn’t mean anything? Your experiences are not my experiences.
What “official” Catholicism says and what actually occurs in terms of the divesity in Catholicism…well…its not much different than Methodism.
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BrianH
Guest
Agnostics? You think?
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AbeOman
Guest
I** have a question though and I don’t intent to disrespect any faith, what happens to children whore not born christians vis a viz “eternal hell” and also does the original sin still apply to them.
**
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PaulDupre
Guest
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stromssa
Guest
Hi everyone,
Thank you for you insight into my rant. I hope it didn’t come across as disrespectful, because that was not my intention. I was just frustrated and needed to express my feelings.
Someone posted a comment similiar to what I was feeling when they noted that my tradition is an “open” tradition (our slogan is ‘Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors’) and so my conflict is at its center due to entering into a more restrictive religious environment where I suddenly, rightly or wrongly, feel as though I have to defend myself and the religious faith with which I was raised and have upheld my entire life. I hope you all can see why this would be painful for me.
That said, my husband and in-laws are respectful of my tradition, and we did receive special permission to marry in my home church. I don’t sense any animosity or pity from them; it’s just that, before my husband and I met, neither had much insight or understanding into the other’s tradition.
As for the understanding before we were married that our future children would be raised Catholic, I did understand it, and though we have talked a bit about it, we are seriously considering children in the next year or so, so this issue has become more challenging for me as we discuss it more thoroughly. Again, as I said earlier, I have no problem with our children being baptized Catholic and attending Mass or being educated in the Catholic tradition, so long as they can also attend church with me and, in the process of the Catholic education they would receive, not at some point turn against me or look at me and my faith as somehow “wrong” in light of the education they receive (that is why I would like to hope that mixed marriage, as they are becoming more common, would be addressed in some way in their education).
Another interesting thing that happened in my church with regard to another Catholic-Methodist couple is that they baptized their child Catholic and then my church had a “ceremony of recognition,” which had all the trappings of my church’s baptism ceremony without – well-- the baptism. The child was bought to the front of the church, blessed by the pastor, introduced to the congregation, and the pastor said the child would be raised in both the Catholic and Methodist traditions. Then the choir sang a special song for the child and the child received a banner that all our baptized children get at the time of baptism. Meanwhile, this child, now 3 or 4 years old, attends Catholic Mass with his dad and occasionally comes to the Methodist Church service with his mom (who also has a 10-year-old daughter from a previous marriage who is Methodist). I think their arrangement is what we will be considering when the time comes. I also find it interesting to note that, in my town, the Catholic and Methodist churches sit right next to one another. In the past 15 years or so, the local priest in the Catholic Church and the other pastors in our town seem to enjoy a good relationship, despite admittedly vast docterinal differences.
Both my husband and myself grew up in our respective faith traditions and feel they are very important to us – a core identity for each of us. I respect this in my husband, and his family is very involved in thier local church and church-related community functions, as is my family in my home church. Though I know our traditions differ greatly in some ways, all I would ask is that my tradition be given respect as well, even though fundamental disagreements might exist.
Thanks for listening – and feel free to add any further comments/insights/opinions…
Thank you for you insight into my rant. I hope it didn’t come across as disrespectful, because that was not my intention. I was just frustrated and needed to express my feelings.
Someone posted a comment similiar to what I was feeling when they noted that my tradition is an “open” tradition (our slogan is ‘Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors’) and so my conflict is at its center due to entering into a more restrictive religious environment where I suddenly, rightly or wrongly, feel as though I have to defend myself and the religious faith with which I was raised and have upheld my entire life. I hope you all can see why this would be painful for me.
That said, my husband and in-laws are respectful of my tradition, and we did receive special permission to marry in my home church. I don’t sense any animosity or pity from them; it’s just that, before my husband and I met, neither had much insight or understanding into the other’s tradition.
As for the understanding before we were married that our future children would be raised Catholic, I did understand it, and though we have talked a bit about it, we are seriously considering children in the next year or so, so this issue has become more challenging for me as we discuss it more thoroughly. Again, as I said earlier, I have no problem with our children being baptized Catholic and attending Mass or being educated in the Catholic tradition, so long as they can also attend church with me and, in the process of the Catholic education they would receive, not at some point turn against me or look at me and my faith as somehow “wrong” in light of the education they receive (that is why I would like to hope that mixed marriage, as they are becoming more common, would be addressed in some way in their education).
Another interesting thing that happened in my church with regard to another Catholic-Methodist couple is that they baptized their child Catholic and then my church had a “ceremony of recognition,” which had all the trappings of my church’s baptism ceremony without – well-- the baptism. The child was bought to the front of the church, blessed by the pastor, introduced to the congregation, and the pastor said the child would be raised in both the Catholic and Methodist traditions. Then the choir sang a special song for the child and the child received a banner that all our baptized children get at the time of baptism. Meanwhile, this child, now 3 or 4 years old, attends Catholic Mass with his dad and occasionally comes to the Methodist Church service with his mom (who also has a 10-year-old daughter from a previous marriage who is Methodist). I think their arrangement is what we will be considering when the time comes. I also find it interesting to note that, in my town, the Catholic and Methodist churches sit right next to one another. In the past 15 years or so, the local priest in the Catholic Church and the other pastors in our town seem to enjoy a good relationship, despite admittedly vast docterinal differences.
Both my husband and myself grew up in our respective faith traditions and feel they are very important to us – a core identity for each of us. I respect this in my husband, and his family is very involved in thier local church and church-related community functions, as is my family in my home church. Though I know our traditions differ greatly in some ways, all I would ask is that my tradition be given respect as well, even though fundamental disagreements might exist.
Thanks for listening – and feel free to add any further comments/insights/opinions…
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Pug
Guest
The answers to your two questions vary within the branches of Christianity. Most Christians will say that original sin applies to children. This would be even though the child is born into a non-Christian family. Different branches conceive of original sin in different ways, though. Usually, they somehow relate it to a problem with human (fallen) nature. Usually, they relate it to the redemptive death of Christ. In my simplistic understanding of Islam, the understanding of Islam and the understanding of Christianity differ in this regard, even though both religions do speak of Adam and Eve and what happened to them.
As another poster mentioned, the Catholic Church in her catechism does not say that the babies will go to eternal punishment in hell. This applies to non-Christian babies. Also, original sin is not understood to be a personal sin or fault or act in people. In that way the words “original sin” can be misleading. For Adam himself, though, it is not a misleading term. Adam did do a personal sin.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Original sin has nothing to do with what religious tradition you were born into. “Original sin”, a somewhat misleading term in modern English, denotes not something you did or some sin that you bear. It denotes something you lack at birth.
Because all humans are descended from Adam, who fell from his original sanctified state through sin, we all inherit the effects of that fall. We are all born into Adam’s fallen state. This fallen condition (called original sin) includes the lack of sanctifying grace in our souls. This defect is cured by the sacrament of baptism, which infuses God’s sanctifying grace into the soul.
God bless,
Paul
Because all humans are descended from Adam, who fell from his original sanctified state through sin, we all inherit the effects of that fall. We are all born into Adam’s fallen state. This fallen condition (called original sin) includes the lack of sanctifying grace in our souls. This defect is cured by the sacrament of baptism, which infuses God’s sanctifying grace into the soul.
God bless,
Paul
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
I don’t usually pull rank but I was a United Methodist Elder for 20 years and a pastor for 27. There is really no interest in any search for truth in most areas. Wm. Willimon at least stated that Methodist should be about truth seeking but there was little interest in such things in most of Methodism.
Indifferentism reigns supreme.
CDL
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BrianH
Guest
I knew that from your posts(thus the “your experiences” directed at you)…and once again your experiences are not my experiences. Sounds like you had a dud conference and I know lots of lousy pastors that have done it for many than 40 years, in many different denominations.
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