Modern "Folk" like mass?

[reff]

I go to the 11:00 mass on sunday at our local parish, I noticed there’s alot of youth there, and they have a folk type band playing liturgical music, and even the priest when he’s giving his homily, he has a wireless mic so he walks around and speaks, he even starts to get into to it and yell amen in which the congregation responds amen as well. There is even hand clapping during some of the hymns, and during the Gloria and Gospel Acclamation we clap our hands “Gloria clap clap, Gloria clap clap” or “Sing aleluia, sing aleluia, sing aleluia to the Lord clap clap” I almost felt like I was in a baptist service, or one of those born again christian churches, where they raise their hands and clap with the music. Is this new type of mass popular? Has anyone else been to a normal Sunday mass like this?

 

[benedictgal]

I go to the 11:00 mass on sunday at our local parish, I noticed there’s alot of youth there, and they have a folk type band playing liturgical music, and even the priest when he’s giving his homily, he has a wireless mic so he walks around and speaks, he even starts to get into to it and yell amen in which the congregation responds amen as well. There is even hand clapping during some of the hymns, and during the Gloria and Gospel Acclamation we clap our hands “Gloria clap clap, Gloria clap clap” or “Sing aleluia, sing aleluia, sing aleluia to the Lord clap clap” I almost felt like I was in a baptist service, or one of those born again christian churches, where they raise their hands and clap with the music. Is this new type of mass popular? Has anyone else been to a normal Sunday mass like this?

OCP got taken to the woodshed for that clappy, happy Gloria by Christopher Walker which is not even the real prayer. It is a bad paraphrase and OCP was told to remove it from the ranks of service music and switch it to the “hymns” section. What you have described is a sad, liturgical time warp. These people are dreadfully stuck in the 1970s with no real clue that the Church is moving way past them and going trying to get back to some normalcy.

 

[reff]

What’s with the hand clapping during the hymns though, and even during the Gloria, our priest will raise his hands in the air and yell gloria. It seems so modern and almost hippy like in a way. And is it common for Catholic priests to shout amen during their homily now?

 

[benedictgal]

What’s with the hand clapping during the hymns though, and even during the Gloria, our priest will raise his hands in the air and yell gloria. It seems so modern and almost hippy like in a way. And is it common for Catholic priests to shout amen during their homily now?

No it is not. From what you described, it seem as though solemnity, dignity and beauty have all gone out the door and the banal has seeped into the Mass. This is very sad.

 

[GemmaRose]

No it is not. From what you described, it seem as though solemnity, dignity and beauty have all gone out the door and the banal has seeped into the Mass. This is very sad.

Reff, please remember that the above is one person’s subjective opinion.

If the congregation, especially the youth, are praising God, then it’s fine, although I would hope that things were a little more solemn during the Offertory through after reception of Holy Communion.

:harp:

 

[benedictgal]

Reff, please remember that the above is one person’s subjective opinion.

If the congregation, especially the youth, are praising God, then it’s fine, although I would hope that things were a little more solemn during the Offertory through after reception of Holy Communion.

:harp:

Actually, what I’ve said is pretty much consistent with the line of thinking of the Holy Father who wrote this in his first book on the Liturgy, Feast of Faith:

But what does the new and better look like? The leading concepts have already been indicated in previous allusions. We must now pay attention to their closer concretization. Two basic values are clearly formulated. The “primary value” of a renewed liturgy, we are told, is “the full and authentic action of all persons”.12 Accordingly, Church music means first and foremost that the “people of God” represents its identity in song. The second value decision operative here is likewise already addressed: music shows itself as the power that effects the coherence of the group. The familiar songs are, as it were, the identifying marks of a community.13 From this perspective, the main categories of the musical formation of the liturgy arise: the project, the program, the animation, the direction. The how, we are told, is more important than the what.14 The ability to celebrate is above all the “ability to do”. Music must above all be “done”.15

Thus, elements of continuity do exist in this wide breach. These elements enable dialogue and give hope that unity in the fundamental understanding of the liturgy can be found again, which unity, however, threatens to disappear through the derivation of the liturgy from the group instead of from the Church — and not only theoretically, but also in concrete liturgical practice.

I should not speak in such detail of all this, if I thought that such ideas were to be ascribed only to isolated theoreticians. Although it is incontestable that they cannot be based on the text of the Second Vatican Council, the opinion that the spirit of the Council points in this direction won acceptance in so many liturgical offices and their agents. In what has just been described, an all too widespread opinion today holds that so-called creativity, the action of all present, and the relationship of group members who know and address one another are the genuine categories of the conciliar understanding of the liturgy. Not only chaplains, but sometimes even bishops, have the feeling that they have not remained true to the Council when they pray everything as it is written in the Missal; at least one “creative” formula must be inserted, however banal it may be. And the civil greeting of those present, with friendly wishes at the dismissal, has already become an obligatory ingredient of the sacred action which anyone would hardly dare to omit.
…

What the OP described was an exercise in creativity that is banal and not at all suited to the Mass. There are those who forget that during the Mass, the bodies in the pews are not the only ones present. During the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth is lifted and the entire Church comes together, Triumphant, Suffering and Militant. The Church is not just the warm lving bodies, it encompasses the whole of the history of mankind. To forget that element, as in the incident described by the OP, is to have a very poor understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[bpbasilphx]

** I almost felt like I was in a baptist service,**

We never did any clapping when I was a Baptist.

 

[reff]

Yeah, I guess I was being a little stereotypical when I made that comment, however I did feel like I was in a born-again Christian type service where they have the guitars and tambourines, and they clap and raise their hands in the air with the music.

 

[japhy]

And is it common for Catholic priests to shout amen during their homily now?

The homily is a part of the Mass where the “active participation” of the faithful involves them listening, not speaking.

 

[EasterJoy]

What the OP described was an exercise in creativity that is banal and not at all suited to the Mass. There are those who forget that during the Mass, the bodies in the pews are not the only ones present. During the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth is lifted and the entire Church comes together, Triumphant, Suffering and Militant. The Church is not just the warm lving bodies, it encompasses the whole of the history of mankind. To forget that element, as in the incident described by the OP, is to have a very poor understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Not to defend this particular piece of music, but does anyone else find it odd to hear the psalms about praising God with clapping hands and joyous instruments, and so on, all in a church where that is never, ever heard? Not even outside of Mass? God and the clapping, shouting, dancing and so on were always mutually exclusive. I always thought that was a little funny, growing up.

 

[Jimsdun]

Yeah, I guess I was being a little stereotypical when I made that comment, however I did feel like I was in a born-again Christian type service where they have the guitars and tambourines, and they clap and raise their hands in the air with the music.

Why I don’t clap anymore

1. When there are hundreds of other people clapping. Whether I clap or not is not going to make the music sound any different.
2. I always seem to get out of sync
3. It makes my palms hurt
4. I haven’t memorized all the words to all the songs. How can I hold the music sheet with one hand and still clap at the same time?
5. Only Baptists and Pentacostals clap. I don’t need to pretend to be one of those.
6. Clapping = entertainment. I am not here to be entertained. I can go to a nightclub for that.

 

[japhy]

Not to defend this particular piece of music, but does anyone else find it odd to hear the psalms about praising God with clapping hands and joyous instruments, and so on, all in a church where that is never, ever heard? Not even outside of Mass?

The Church, rather early, inherited chant from the Jews, and that’s been the type of music heard in churches since then. Many Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches have chant with any instrumental accompaniment… their Divine Liturgies are virtually entirely sung, with no clapping, no shouting, no cymbals, no dancing. It’s just not how they worship God as a Church.

I disagree with your “not even outside of Mass” qualification there, because that just hasn’t been my experience.

 

[Sarabande]

The Church, rather early, inherited chant from the Jews, and that’s been the type of music heard in churches since then. Many Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches have chant with any instrumental accompaniment… their Divine Liturgies are virtually entirely sung, with no clapping, no shouting, no cymbals, no dancing. It’s just not how they worship God as a Church.

I disagree with your “not even outside of Mass” qualification there, because that just hasn’t been my experience.

This is true. One of the first times I learned this was through my Jewish teacher who was my former voice teacher and who was also specifically trained in Jewish chant for their services. The earliest Christians were first considered as another sect of Judaism who believed that the Messiah (Jesus) had come before totally becoming a separate religious entity altogether.

EasterJoy - I would sometimes think the same thing, but as a few of my Jewish friends pointed out, the psalms were written long before Christianity and it was the way the Hebrews in that time and area praised God. Those were the best instruments of their time, and things have changed and advanced much since then, even by Jesus’ time.

 

[FraterAndre]

Here in our country, some parish priests tend to shout “Amen?” once in a while in their homilies and some masses here are quite “Charismatic”: they sing songs that the born again Christians, the Baptists, the Pantecostals, etc. sing like “One way Jesus” for the recessional hymn, “Through It All” (By Hillsong United I think) in the communion, etc…

Are these abuses? Can these cases be reported to the bishop?

 

[Sarabande]

Here in our country, some parish priests tend to shout “Amen?” once in a while in their homilies and some masses here are quite “Charismatic”: they sing songs that the born again Christians, the Baptists, the Pantecostals, etc. sing like “One way Jesus” for the recessional hymn, “Through It All” (By Hillsong United I think) in the communion, etc…

Are these abuses? Can these cases be reported to the bishop?

Wow! Things have changed since my mother left the Philippines.

 

[dconklin]

This “happy/hippy mass” has been around for a long time. My parents took us to masses like these years ago. If something you are doing is getting more people (especially the youth) to share in the Eucharist, I think God is happy.

Jesus was all for doing things differently if the old way was like it was because that’s how it always was. Here is a quote I picked up at a DRE meeting last week: If you always do what you’ve always done you’ll always get what you always got. Sure, the “old people” would rather have the organ drone-on and the songs be the old standards, but there has to be a mass or two that welcomes the younger folk.

 

[japhy]

If something you are doing is getting more people (especially the youth) to share in the Eucharist, I think God is happy.

“Shar[ing] in the Eucharist” is only part of the Mass, though. Do people see Mass basically as a vehicle for receiving the Eucharist [sic], or do they see it as the way in which the Church publicly worships God by *offering Him *the Eucharist – which is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of His dearly beloved Son?

“If you always do what you’ve always done you’ll always get what you always got.” Sure, the “old people” would rather have the organ drone-on and the songs be the old standards, but there has to be a mass or two that welcomes the younger folk.

That’s a rather cynical attitude. This is not nostalgia here. I resent the comments about it being “the old people”, “the organ dron[ing] on”, and that the songs be “the old standards”. I’m 26, and I’ve grown up with the Ordinary Form of Mass; I’ve attended the Extraordinary Form only twice. The songs that tradition-minded Catholics are yearning for are the songs (chants) that are proper to the Mass itself. Perhaps you don’t realize that each celebration of the Mass has particular chants that are meant to be sung; nowadays, a musical director chooses a bunch of songs to sing, but that is quite an innovation in the Catholic Church.

And as for age… what did “the younger folk” do 50 years ago? 60 years ago? 100 years ago? 300 years ago? What special youth-oriented Mass was there to cater to them? None; they worshiped God with the same Mass as their parents and grandparents. This is not about catering to us and our needs, it’s about respecting the Church (and Her tradition) and, above all, worshiping God as His Church intends Him to be worshiped.

And the “old way” had plenty of fruit.

 

[dconklin]

Wow! I hit a nerve. I was not trying to disparage your motives or show contempt (def of cynical) of your practices and beliefs. I was just relating what my philosophies of the liturgy are. I am an employee of the church. That does not give me any special powers or authority but it does give insight to what goes on at the mass and behind the scenes.

This church is full of people pleasers and that is sad. Paul had some cool things to say about people pleasers. He too thought the old way was the only way - for a while.

I am a youth minister. I have concerns when kids do not want to take part in or even be at the liturgy because there is no connection or because the church police (like the pharasies back in the day) have trouble with how we worship and praise. It is not all old people because we have many “old-school” Catholics that attend our ‘contemporary’ mass but at my church it usually is people with grey hair that do most of the complaining.

I am sure I will get booted from this forums for my opinion because it is not Canonically based.

 

[japhy]

Wow! I hit a nerve. I was not trying to disparage your motives or show contempt (def of cynical) of your practices and beliefs. … I am sure I will get booted from this forums for my opinion because it is not Canonically based.

I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but the language you used seemed to me to show a lack of respect: “Sure, the ‘old people’ would rather have the organ drone-on and the songs be the old standards, but there has to be a mass or two that welcomes the younger folk.” By saying that, you’re essentially saying that the “old” Mass (with a droning organ and “old standards” for songs, with “old people”) is not welcoming for “younger folk”.

And it sounds to me like you’re being cynical (i.e. negative, pessimistic, skeptical) again: saying that you expect to be booted because your opinion “is not Canonically based”. Why did you say that for?

I was just relating what my philosophies of the liturgy are.

I understand that. It’s quite possible we have different philosophies of the liturgy.

Paul had some cool things to say about people pleasers. He too thought the old way was the only way - for a while.

Could you elaborate? Are you referring to Paul thinking Judaism was the only way, or are you referring to something liturgical?

I have concerns when kids do not want to take part in or even be at the liturgy because there is no connection or because the church police (like the pharasies back in the day) have trouble with how we worship and praise.

And now we get the “church police” and “Pharisees” comments…

I’ll ask again: what did youths and teenagers do 60, 70, 80, 100, 300 years ago? Why were the youths of several decades ago able to “survive” the Mass? Granted, there are cultural problems today that make it harder for children (and their parents), but should the Church’s response be to “go with the flow”?

Have you, as a youth minister, helped catechize the youth of your parish so that they understand the liturgy and understand how they “actively participate” in it?

 

[dconklin]

I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but the language you used seemed to me to show a lack of respect: “Sure, the ‘old people’ would rather have the organ drone-on and the songs be the old standards, but there has to be a mass or two that welcomes the younger folk.” By saying that, you’re essentially saying that the “old” Mass (with a droning organ and “old standards” for songs, with “old people”) is not welcoming for “younger folk”.

And it sounds to me like you’re being cynical (i.e. negative, pessimistic, skeptical) again: saying that you expect to be booted because your opinion “is not Canonically based”. Why did you say that for?

I understand that. It’s quite possible we have different philosophies of the liturgy.

Could you elaborate? Are you referring to Paul thinking Judaism was the only way, or are you referring to something liturgical?

And now we get the “church police” and “Pharisees” comments…

I’ll ask again: what did youths and teenagers do 60, 70, 80, 100, 300 years ago? Why were the youths of several decades ago able to “survive” the Mass? Granted, there are cultural problems today that make it harder for children (and their parents), but should the Church’s response be to “go with the flow”?

Have you, as a youth minister, helped catechize the youth of your parish so that they understand the liturgy and understand how they “actively participate” in it?

While our church does move slowly, we do change things from time to time. I am guess the church 300 years ago was a bunch different than it is today. The masses said at the parish just south of my parish are different than those at my parish. The priests there are more ‘old-school’ as compared to the priests at my church, yet they have a Life Teen Mass every Sun night. No, if the church said “Go with the flow” or in other words “we don’t care if it’s not relevant to you - too bad” than the Catholic Church would be a very small religion.

And yeah, my students (1300 of them) know the ins and outs of the Liturgy and our other very Catholic traditions and ways. They participate in Euch adoration, many of the older kids are still alter servers, lectors and ushers and we have a teen band that plays monthly. They know how to play guitars and belive they are using their God-given gifts to help lead worship. I think they are doing as good of a job in God’s eyes as our Dir of Music Min when he plays the big organ (very unoccasionally) at mass.

You didn’t like my church police line? I figured someone with enough gumption to show displeasure my thoughts must run the place.