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graceandglory
Guest
What makes you think it’s a new style? We sang that song in the 70s at my parish when I was a kid. I really liked it. But "when I became an adult, “I put away with childish things.”
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graceandglory
Guest
People really must realize that a lot of it really boils down to our “personal taste.” Many types of music are acceptable world-wide, and they are all catholic. In a sense, Catholic means universal. There really are some things we can choose to differ over, and music is one of them.
I have to do this regularly. I like Latin chant, my kids DO NOT.
So we take turns.
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jbebeau
Guest
There is a lot of debate about what constitutes proper music in church. Part of the challenge was when the liturgy made the shift into the venacular, so did the music. There Church had no significant hymnody in the venacular so she was starting from scratch. People turned to the contemporary genre of music in society and thus what emerged was what has been described as “folk” music at Mass. Since the guitar was the most common instument that sustained the singing of this genre of music it became part of the music at Mass in spite the prohibitions from the Vatican. It is interesting to note that the hymns were never really a part of Mass, rather chant and psalms were. Hymns were usually reserved to the Divine Office.
The attitude of relativism and emotionalism, is common in the Church today as it is common in society. It can be difficult to separate the two. It seems there is some of that argument going on here. What I like is not what you like, or that is not my philosophy of liturgy. I find the following quote from Fr. Rob Johansen useful:
"…the idea that “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”… seems to me to sum up the thinking of many, if not most, Catholics, whether musicians or those in the pews. On numerous occasions, in my efforts to explain and promote the authentic vision of Vatican II regarding liturgy and music, I have heard from parishioners and others a response something like this:
‘Well, Father, you like all that classical music and chant, and the traditional hymns, and that’s fine for you. But I [we] like [insert musical genre here], and, after all, it’s all for God’s praise. One kind of music is just as good as another.’
Alasdair McIntyre, in his seminal book After Virtue, described this mode of thinking as emotivism, that is, the collapsing of all moral or qualitative judgments into mere expressions of personal preference. And this kind of thinking is the besetting sin of the post-modern West.
What is missing in the thinking illustrated above is any sense that the liturgy, and the music of the liturgy, has any objective quality whatsoever.
The fact is, the Church has never treated the liturgy and its music in the relativized and subjective fashion typified above."
The attitude of relativism and emotionalism, is common in the Church today as it is common in society. It can be difficult to separate the two. It seems there is some of that argument going on here. What I like is not what you like, or that is not my philosophy of liturgy. I find the following quote from Fr. Rob Johansen useful:
"…the idea that “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”… seems to me to sum up the thinking of many, if not most, Catholics, whether musicians or those in the pews. On numerous occasions, in my efforts to explain and promote the authentic vision of Vatican II regarding liturgy and music, I have heard from parishioners and others a response something like this:
‘Well, Father, you like all that classical music and chant, and the traditional hymns, and that’s fine for you. But I [we] like [insert musical genre here], and, after all, it’s all for God’s praise. One kind of music is just as good as another.’
Alasdair McIntyre, in his seminal book After Virtue, described this mode of thinking as emotivism, that is, the collapsing of all moral or qualitative judgments into mere expressions of personal preference. And this kind of thinking is the besetting sin of the post-modern West.
What is missing in the thinking illustrated above is any sense that the liturgy, and the music of the liturgy, has any objective quality whatsoever.
The fact is, the Church has never treated the liturgy and its music in the relativized and subjective fashion typified above."
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jc-servant
Guest
None of this offers any factual support for your statement that clapping is confined to 2 particular Protestant groups. An attempt to change the basis of the argument now is merely a distraction.
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Jimsdun
Guest
I suppose that I could distinguish between 2 different kinds of happy, and anybody who isn’t shallow could tell the difference between the two. There is a difference between “reverie” happy and “amused” happy. When I attend mass I am happy to be in the presence of the Lord (reverie) but I am not there to be amused and entertained (amused). Mass is not supposed to be entertainment, and when it does become too entertaining it detracts from the real meaning of the mass.
When I was in a choir, I always told myself (and also often reminded other choir members) that we are ministering, not performing.
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Jimsdun
Guest
Well, if all I want to do is sing and clap, I can go to the Baptist church for that. What difference does it make where you attend church if the only reason you are there is to sing, dance and clap?
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reff
Guest
Like I said i don’t have a problem with the guitars, but the clapping bothers me. And what really bothers me a lot is how the Deacon who co-celebrates has long hair, a long beard, and tattoos all down his arms, when they enter at the beginning of Mass, when he’s holding up the holy Scripture you can see his tattoos. But most of all he wears jeans, and that upsets me
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Marysann
Guest
I have read through this long thread, and I am struck with the realization that many don’t seem to understand what the Mass is. We all remember that it is a memorial of the Last Supper, but we seem to forget that the Holy Mass is also the representation of our Lord’s sacrifice of his Body and Blood on Calvary. By this saving act Jesus brought about our redemption. If we were at the foot of the cross, would we be waving our arms and beating drums? I realize, of course, that the Lord has risen, but that doesn’t negate the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice. As such the music should reflect the seriousness of the action taking place. The Church has provided the proper music for the Mass in the chant, but allows us also to use the music of our time and culture if it is respectful to the Holy Sacrifice. There is nothing inherently wrong with most “glory and praise” music, but it doesn’t belong at the Mass. It could certainly be used at other types of prayer services or devotions of which we certainly could use more. If you look up the word “celebrate” in the dictionary, you will find that it has more than one meaning. The definition which we should be using in this context is “to perform a religious ceremony.”
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benedictgal
Guest
Amen!
In fact, a lot of the music from the Glory and Praise era seems to ignore the fact that the Mass is the Holy Sacrifice. The ancient hymns had a better and clearer interpretation. There is also a greater degree of the sublime and wondrous mystery present in these ancient hymns that is totally lost in today’s sappy, clappy music.
My dad listens to Bob Dylan and the other folk people on the Sirius 60s channel. He doesn’t like to listen to that kind of stuff during Mass.
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cecilia97
Guest
It’s not really modern, a lot of it is from the 70s. My parent’s parish has the exact same music you’re talking about, clapping and all. I try to avoid that Mass if I can.
It’ not like Baptist or born again services, their music is WAY better! Plus they’re not geeky and akward about clapping like we are.
I’ve always thought that this was some Catholic parishes’ way of “competing” with the Baptist church down the road for the attendance of young people or just people in general. Problem is, folk and popular music is NOT what the Church excels in. We excel in our own type of music, and good solid liturgy, and the truth. So it’s like choosing to compete in your worst event at the Olympics instead of the event you’re good at.
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dconklin
Guest
Wow!Like I said i don’t have a problem with the guitars, but the clapping bothers me. And what really bothers me a lot is how the Deacon who co-celebrates has long hair, a long beard, and tattoos all down his arms, when they enter at the beginning of Mass, when he’s holding up the holy Scripture you can see his tattoos. But most of all he wears jeans, and that upsets me
I have tattoos. Am I unworthy too? We are taught Jesus had long hair. He was a rebel - no doubt. The Pharasies thought he was not worthy either. Do the jeans mean the Deacon is incapable of loving and serving God? Is dressing up in a suit the only way to show reverence? Let’s measure each other not by outward appearance, but by the love we show for God and others. And if we do it without chanting or using the pipe organ, I think God will still love us.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
WOW, I’m shocked to find a thread about music, that has caused such a debate in this forum.
I said before, I’ll say it again. There should be a forum, just for complaining about music at Mass, and leave this forum for people who are merely trying to learn about the Catholic Liturgy, without having to endure a war zone of debates over their question.
Jim
I said before, I’ll say it again. There should be a forum, just for complaining about music at Mass, and leave this forum for people who are merely trying to learn about the Catholic Liturgy, without having to endure a war zone of debates over their question.
Jim
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cothrige
Guest
The above post was not my own, but I am curious about this. Surely a person who desires to serve the Lord in the sanctuary could take the trouble to cover any tattoos which may cause a distraction. Even actors and actresses do as much for making a TV show, why should a deacon be any different?Wow!
And perhaps he even rode a Harley-Davidson?
Does this mean that you would go to a funeral in your jeans? Or a wedding? Or to appear in a court? I don’t think a suit is necessary at all, but jeans are no less expensive than a pair of chinos or other such trousers any number of which would be more appropriate for service at Mass. Surely a person called to be a deacon could trouble himself to own a pair of pants or trousers other than blue jeans.
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reff
Guest
I have tattoos too don’t get me wrong. I just personally feel that a man of the holy orders should at least not wear jeans and tennis shoes when he is co-celebrating mass. I mean if it didn’t matter what the outward appearance of the celebrants are, than why don’t they just show up in their street clothes? Why wear the fancy robes?Wow!
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dconklin
Guest
Yeah, I suppose if/when I become a deacon I will have to find my nice shoes. I would definately need to wear an alb that went to my ankels.
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JaMc
Guest
One thing that has always bothered me - why does everyone seem to assume that the younger people want this “new age/folk” Mass (especially that “clapping Gloria” Ugh…)? The Newman Centre at the University I attended seemed to make this assumption, as has every “youth” Mass I have attended. I am 27 years old now, but it annoyed me every bit as much when I was 15.
One example: We had a youth retreat at my parish a few months back, but it is a parish tradition that we always say the Rosary 1/2 hour before Mass. However, to accomodate their “guitar/tambourine” practice, the Holy Rosary was “pre-empted.”
Maybe if someone tried exposing the young people to the “old standards,” like Faith of Our Fathers, Immaculate Mary, etc., sung at a proper, reverent Mass, rather than assuming they want a "Good ole’ fashion’ Revival Meetin’, " better suited to a tent with sawdust on the ground than a church, something surprising might happen - you may actually see young people growing up with an appreciation of the transcendence of the Holy Mass, and who will carry on the old traditions, rather than losing them.
Just my 2 cents, as a somewhat younger person…
One example: We had a youth retreat at my parish a few months back, but it is a parish tradition that we always say the Rosary 1/2 hour before Mass. However, to accomodate their “guitar/tambourine” practice, the Holy Rosary was “pre-empted.”
Maybe if someone tried exposing the young people to the “old standards,” like Faith of Our Fathers, Immaculate Mary, etc., sung at a proper, reverent Mass, rather than assuming they want a "Good ole’ fashion’ Revival Meetin’, " better suited to a tent with sawdust on the ground than a church, something surprising might happen - you may actually see young people growing up with an appreciation of the transcendence of the Holy Mass, and who will carry on the old traditions, rather than losing them.
Just my 2 cents, as a somewhat younger person…
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reff
Guest
again I have no problem with the guitars, being part hispanic and i attend spanish mass quite often, and they have guitars there too. it’s feels like i’m in a small church in mexico! But the happy clappy gloria bothers me. In fact, I usually will say the gloria to myself when everyone is singing and clapping there hands.
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Jimsdun
Guest
How you dress for mass, or how you appear shows how much you value the mass. Show up for mass dressed like a slob when you can clearly afford better dress, is a sign of laziness and disrespect.Wow!
adoremus.org/11-00-vasa.html
charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/dress-for-mass.html
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ethelzguy
Guest
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ethelzguy
Guest
dconklin, you have seen the light. It IS all about outward appearances.
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