Modern "Folk" like mass?

[dconklin]

How you dress for mass, or how you appear shows how much you value the mass. Show up for mass dressed like a slob when you can clearly afford better dress, is a sign of laziness and disrespect.

adoremus.org/11-00-vasa.html

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/dress-for-mass.html

The second link has two very telling pictures at the blog’s beginning. One shows 30-80 year olds in an old church with pews and wood paneling. Those folks are all dressed nicely. In fact, I am guessing it is a special mass of some sort of dedication because the people in the front pew all have what appears to be the same pin on their lapels.

The next picture is of teens/college students in a “temporary” church - moveable chairs. When I was in school at a Catholic Univ, very few if any people wore suits to mass. Did we know where we were? You bet we did. Jesus was not a flashy dresser. His hair was not styled like many of the richer people. He was more attracted to the sinners than the saints.

Sure it is nice to dress up for the feast, but it is more important to be at the feast in the first place.

 

[japhy]

So, if it isn’t ‘modern’, then it must be old enough to be ‘traditional’ then?

Sigh. No, and you know that.

(And you have “Pius” misspelled in your signature…)

 

[ethelzguy]

Sigh. No, and you know that.

(And you have “Pius” misspelled in your signature…)

So, how long do we have to do or use something before it becomes “tradition” ? Is there a Church teaching on this issue, or is it arbitrary from person to person?

 

[turtle18]

If you look at a lot of the songs from “Glory & Praise”, you will see that they are based on Psalms are Scriptures. (Not all of the but the majority of them.) I think this was a natural reaction to Vatican II. If you remember prior to Vatican, they did not have the three year cycle to read the entire Bible. They didn’t have the responsorial psalm or the first reading from the OT. The emphasis switched after Vatican II to reveal the word of the Lord more. And I think that is what you find in the music since then.
I think the organ is very hard to listen to sometimes. It is not a peaceful or joyful instrument in my opinion, it is just loud and very hard to follow. But the electric guitar is very painful to listen to in mass as well. Given my choice, I would have neither.

 

[jay29]

When I first converted from Eastern Orthodox to Catholic, I signed up at the closest Catholic Church to my home. They had all that Gloria clap clap clap stuff and a little hippie band every now and again. The decorations of the Church were boring as well. Bland. Remember I was coming from an Eastern Orthodox parish. Once I said my “Oath of Allegiance” to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other parishes. I found another one and it is way more traditional in decor and the Mass. I left the clapping and the hippies behind.

 

[benedictgal]

If you look at a lot of the songs from “Glory & Praise”, you will see that they are based on Psalms are Scriptures. (Not all of the but the majority of them.) I think this was a natural reaction to Vatican II. If you remember prior to Vatican, they did not have the three year cycle to read the entire Bible. They didn’t have the responsorial psalm or the first reading from the OT. The emphasis switched after Vatican II to reveal the word of the Lord more. And I think that is what you find in the music since then.
I think the organ is very hard to listen to sometimes. It is not a peaceful or joyful instrument in my opinion, it is just loud and very hard to follow. But the electric guitar is very painful to listen to in mass as well. Given my choice, I would have neither.

First of all, the documents of the Church, from the Constitution on Sacred Music to Musicam Sacram stress that the organ has pride of place where sacred music is concerned.

Second, inasmuch as the lyrics from the Glory and Praise songbook are sciptrually-based, the musical settings are far from sacred and sound something more like the Carpenteres, Simon and Garfunkel and Joan Baez.

As Pope Benedict put it (in Sacramentum Caritatis), we cannot say, as far as liturgical music is concerned, that one song is as good as another.

 

[cecilia97]

again I have no problem with the guitars, being part hispanic and i attend spanish mass quite often, and they have guitars there too. it’s feels like i’m in a small church in mexico! But the happy clappy gloria bothers me. In fact, I usually will say the gloria to myself when everyone is singing and clapping there hands.

There is a parish near where I vacation with an INCREDIBLE mariachi band at Mass. Love it! It supports the liturgy instead of taking focus off of it, and it allows the locals to show pride in their culture. No problem!

I guess like a lot on this thread, the issue I have is when the music is sappy, repetitive, and “faux” young. The clappy Gloria sounds like it’s about 35 years old. I’ve heard it at Life Teen Mass and the kids looked rather uncomfortable while their parents clapped away!

I like the traditional stuff AND there is a lot of current Catholic music that I think is beautiful. New music can indeed be reverent and glorify God. It just doesn’t seem like the “good” new hymns are the ones that get played much.

Why, why why?!!

 

[GemmaRose]

I suppose that I could distinguish between 2 different kinds of happy, and anybody who isn’t shallow could tell the difference between the two. There is a difference between “reverie” happy and “amused” happy. When I attend mass I am happy to be in the presence of the Lord (reverie) but I am not there to be amused and entertained (amused). Mass is not supposed to be entertainment, and when it does become too entertaining it detracts from the real meaning of the mass.

When I was in a choir, I always told myself (and also often reminded other choir members) that we are ministering, not performing.

Why is it that everyone assumes that when people clap while singing in church that they are treating the Mass as a form of entertainment or amusement?

The oft misquoted:

“For he that singeth praise, not only praiseth, but only praiseth with gladness: he that singeth praise, not only singeth, but also loveth him of whom he singeth. In praise, there is the speaking forth of one confessing; in singing, the affection of one loving.”
(St. Augustine, Commentary on Psalm 73, 1)

[He who sings prays twice]​

elevates sung praise to a higher position than spoken praise.

Has anyone ever thought that the joy which people feel in worshiping our loving, merciful and glorious God can “spill over” into their entire bodies until they cannot contain it and don’t know what to do, and so they clap?

Could this not be another possibility?

 

[cothrige]

Jesus was not a flashy dresser. His hair was not styled like many of the richer people. He was more attracted to the sinners than the saints.

He was “more attracted to the sinners than the saints?” How so? By that logic shouldn’t you then be a sinner so that Jesus will find you attractive to himself rather than aim to be a saint? That is an odd view of what Jesus thought.

And as for his clothes, are you sure of this? Just ask yourself, if you died today would anybody cast lots in order to get your clothes?

Sure it is nice to dress up for the feast, but it is more important to be at the feast in the first place.

I think some people are talking past each other here. Why are you talking about “dress[ing] up”? Would you wear swim trunks or cutoffs to Mass, as you would to the beach? Aren’t some clothes simply wrong or inappropriate for Mass, even if they are not “dressing up”?

I also think some people are missing the fact that the original point of contention was not how a person should dress for Mass, but how a deacon should dress to serve at Mass. There is a big distinction there. If you went to the theater you may consider wearing a t-shirt and blue jeans, regardless of any other people’s opinion, but would you still do so if you were the master of ceremonies? If a person chooses to be a deacon and serve in a parish then surely they understand that they need to dress the part somewhat. Or is being a deacon somehow less important to dress for than other jobs, almost all of which have standards for that.

 

[turtle18]

First of all, the documents of the Church, from the Constitution on Sacred Music to Musicam Sacram stress that the organ has pride of place where sacred music is concerned.

Second, inasmuch as the lyrics from the Glory and Praise songbook are sciptrually-based, the musical settings are far from sacred and sound something more like the Carpenteres, Simon and Garfunkel and Joan Baez.

As Pope Benedict put it (in Sacramentum Caritatis), we cannot say, as far as liturgical music is concerned, that one song is as good as another.

Frankly, I don’t think God cares what musical instrument you play. God would rather you play any instrument with love instead of one instrument with pride and arrogance. Honestly, don’t you think God would be more satisfied with a volunteer 18 year old who plays the guitar out of love for Him than a paid musical director who plays the organ and cares more about rubrics?

There is Biblical evidence that God wants you to play more than one instrument. Last time I read the Bible, there are numerous references to different types of musical instruments…trumpets, horns, cymbals, etc…

 

[ethelzguy]

Frankly, I don’t think God cares what musical instrument you play. God would rather you play any instrument with love instead of one instrument with pride and arrogance. Honestly, don’t you think God would be more satisfied with a volunteer 18 year old who plays the guitar out of love for Him than a paid musical director who plays the organ and cares more about rubrics?

There is Biblical evidence that God wants you to play more than one instrument. Last time I read the Bible, there are numerous references to different types of musical instruments…trumpets, horns, cymbals, etc…

What gets lost with the traditionalist crowd, is that a Pope or Cardinal saying a certain instrument or type of music is “preferred” or “desirable”, doesn’t mean that they are to be used to the exculsion of others…

And I haven’t heard of a Pope or Cardinal or Bishop declaring that guitars, etc are NOT to be used.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What gets lost with the traditionalist crowd, is that a Pope or Cardinal saying a certain instrument or type of music is “preferred” or “desirable”, doesn’t mean that they are to be used to the exculsion of others…

And I haven’t heard of a Pope or Cardinal or Bishop declaring that guitars, etc are NOT to be used.

True.

I remember being told of a Pope who hated the violin. His assistant, whom he share residency with, was an amateur violinist and the Pope hated listening to him practice, and it got to the point that the sound of the violin irritated him. As a result the Pope banned the violin from Mass. When he died, his successor, who was the former Pope’s assistant, removed the ban and had a full stringed orchestra at Masses he celebrated.

The instrument that is desirable, is a matter of taste, even among Popes.

Jim

 

[Jimsdun]

The second link has two very telling pictures at the blog’s beginning. One shows 30-80 year olds in an old church with pews and wood paneling. Those folks are all dressed nicely. In fact, I am guessing it is a special mass of some sort of dedication because the people in the front pew all have what appears to be the same pin on their lapels.

The next picture is of teens/college students in a “temporary” church - moveable chairs. When I was in school at a Catholic Univ, very few if any people wore suits to mass. Did we know where we were? You bet we did. Jesus was not a flashy dresser. His hair was not styled like many of the richer people. He was more attracted to the sinners than the saints.

Sure it is nice to dress up for the feast, but it is more important to be at the feast in the first place.

I’m not advocating that everybody wear suits to mass. (I don’t even own a suit), but at least dress in some fashion that shows some respect for the Lord, respect for others, and respect for themselves. If someone showed up for mass shabbily dressed they could be excused if they live in a homeless shelter, but if after mass the shabbily dressed person drives away in a shiny new SUV, I say forsooth.

I also suggest you read the text and not just look at the pictures.

 

[japhy]

I remember being told of a Pope who hated the violin…

That’s a quaint anecdote. Any idea who or when this was?

The instrument that is desirable, is a matter of taste, even among Popes.

The organ has been the instrument of choice in the Latin Rite since the 12th century, if not earlier. Unaccompanied voice is preferred even to that (in both the Eastern and Western Church). Personal tastes of Popes notwithstanding, the long tradition of the Church has been that the organ has pride of place. For a Pope to declare otherwise would probably be imprudent and would fly in the face of that tradition.

As for other instruments, those played with a bow (e.g. violin) are praised by the Church because “they express the joyous and sad sentiments of the soul with an indescribable power”.

Regarding instruments in general: “Care must be taken, however, to ensure that instruments are suitable for sacred use, that they are fitting for the dignity of the Church and can accompany the singing of the faithful and serve to edify them.” I’m personally surprised that things like electric guitars and drum sets are approved.

 

[Abbadon]

How you dress for mass, or how you appear shows how much you value the mass. Show up for mass dressed like a slob when you can clearly afford better dress, is a sign of laziness and disrespect.

adoremus.org/11-00-vasa.html

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/dress-for-mass.html

errrr god can see your tatoos anyway aren’t you there to worship god? not to apease other people?

Shouldn’t you be there for god? God sees you in your darkest hours, he sees all the dirty things you do, he sees you have sex.

Why explain to me why it matters how you look, if you can make it if you are there with all your heart and love. Isn’t that good enough even if you rushed there in your pj’s?

 

[Catholictrain]

OK, I will venture into this discussion with fear and trembling.

In my humble opinion…

I think there is a place for respectable, well-executed up-beat music in some Masses, specifically those geared towards (and advertised as for) young people.

I also think that this up-beat youth Mass must be balanced by at least one solemn, pius Mass.

Furthermore… the two should NEVER be mixed together into one Mass.

Example: While on vacation we went to the wonderful Cathedral of the Diocese of Gallup, NM. There, a pius priest sang the canon of the Mass in Gregorian Chant. Is was like we were all in heaven when he sang. Wonderful! Then after the doxology, the mariachi-style band, with an accordian, electric guitar and electric bass guitar accompanied the congregration in the most banal “Amen” I have ever sung. The contrast was humorous.

Finally, I feel that there is some music that is just not appropriate at Mass. Someone needs to make that decision, but right now it seems that anything goes regarding music.

 

[japhy]

Why explain to me why it matters how you look, if you can make it if you are there with all your heart and love. Isn’t that good enough even if you rushed there in your pj’s?

Because God deserves the best we can give Him, and because the whole Church worships Him together as a corporate body, the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[ethelzguy]

Regarding instruments in general: “Care must be taken, however, to ensure that instruments are suitable for sacred use, that they are fitting for the dignity of the Church and can accompany the singing of the faithful and serve to edify them.”

And, it becomes totally subjective from there…

 

[japhy]

And, it becomes totally subjective from there…

You’ve got a point there. When girls wear miniskirts and spaghetti tops to Mass and boys wear ripped jeans and logo/slogan t-shirts to Mass, electric guitars, drum sets, and synthesizers seem “suitable” and “fitting for the dignity” of the community party.

 

[ethelzguy]

You’ve got a point there. When girls wear miniskirts and spaghetti tops to Mass and boys wear ripped jeans and logo/slogan t-shirts to Mass, electric guitars, drum sets, and synthesizers seem “suitable” and “fitting for the dignity” of the community party.

But, they ARE at Mass, aren’t they? Perhaps a bit more decorum would be nice, but how far do you push them before you push them away?

Are we to bring others to Christ and the Church with charity, or are we to brow-beat them until they meet our standards or leave?