Modern Genetics and Adam & Eve

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grannymh said:
People who are familiar with basic Catholic doctrine would immediately recognize that the words in bold directly contradict Catholic doctrine.

As a reader, I have the right to ask who is speaking the heresy.
Is it really reasonable to assume that Pope Benedict deliberately presented himself as a heretic?
Obviously there have been anti-Catholic catholics on CAF who have assumed heresy in the current Church, but that is another situation.

People who are familiar with the intellectual powers of Pope Benedict know that he has studied not only Catholicism in depth but also the writers who have opposed Divine Revelation. As I recall, someone posted a link with either the name or the philosophy which was promoting the above errors. Since Pope Benedict speaks often about basic Catholicism, this link could lead anywhere.

Your source link refers to the suppression of faith in modern thought. I am still going through the link, which unfortunately omits some of the published pages.

What I am looking for is the real source of the two errors in the post 89 quote above.

Blessings,
granny
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I was merely providing some theological materials that I thought pertinent to the topic at hand, not to propagate heretical thought, so I apologize for any errors on my part. I posted my conclusion based on what I read by (then) Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on how Original Sin is propagated in his writing. Now, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Edition), there isn’t an explicitly defined mechanism (highlighted in bold below) in transmitting Original Sin.

404: How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.* Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.*** But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice.

If I am incorrect in my interpretation in this teaching, I respectfully ask that someone with Catholic catechism authority to provide me with the correct instruction, as I will fully submit to the authority of the Church.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
I was merely providing some theological materials that I thought pertinent to the topic at hand, not to propagate heretical thought, so I apologize for any errors on my part.
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You are not promoting heretical anything.

If there are errors, they would be on the part of the interpretors of Pope Benedict’s writing.

I am not at home so I don’t have access to my own research material. So far, what I am finding on the net skips some of the information on Jacques Monod which is in the Pope’s book. 😦

Even if I am wrong about Jacques Monod, there is still the obvious errors regarding original sin.:confused:

My apology, but I have to leave.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55: 6-9
 
grannymh said:
You are not promoting heretical anything.

If there are errors, they would be on the part of the interpretors of Pope Benedict’s writing.

I am not at home so I don’t have access to my own research material. So far, what I am finding on the net skips some of the information on Jacques Monod which is in the Pope’s book. 😦

Even if I am wrong about Jacques Monod, there is still the obvious errors regarding original sin.:confused:

My apology, but I have to leave.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55: 6-9
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We appreciate your effort in clarifying the matter. Let us know what you find out.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
I was merely providing some theological materials that I thought pertinent to the topic at hand, not to propagate heretical thought, so I apologize for any errors on my part. I posted my conclusion based on what I read by (then) Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger on how Original Sin is propagated in his writing. Now, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Edition), there isn’t an explicitly defined mechanism (highlighted in bold below) in transmitting Original Sin.

404: How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice.* Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand.*** But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice.

If I am incorrect in my interpretation in this teaching, I respectfully ask that someone with Catholic catechism authority to provide me with the correct instruction, as I will fully submit to the authority of the Church.
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It is difficult to read the Catechism regarding human nature and original sin. I know this by painful experience over a long period.

The defined mechanism in transmitting Original Sin is found in the last sentence in CCC 404.

*It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. *

To find out the “what” which is transmitted, one needs to contiue reading surrounding paragraphs. I do not have my Catechism with me and I am leaving with no time to chech on-line versions.
 
grannymh said:
The defined mechanism in transmitting Original Sin is found in the last sentence in CCC 404. “It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice.”
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This is intriguing, granny. If original sin and human nature are transmitted by sexual propagation, there ought to be a way of measuring or scientifically assessing this claim. If the tendency to original sin is not susceptible of being measured scientifically, then it is unclear how it is transmitted by sexual propagation.

StAnastasia
 
grannymh said:
You are not promoting heretical anything.

If there are errors, they would be on the part of the interpretors of Pope Benedict’s writing.

I am not at home so I don’t have access to my own research material. So far, what I am finding on the net skips some of the information on Jacques Monod which is in the Pope’s book. 😦

Even if I am wrong about Jacques Monod, there is still the obvious errors regarding original sin.:confused:

My apology, but I have to leave.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55: 6-9
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If this is of help, you can find the same text on page 265 in the following book:

The Essential Pope Benedict XVI: His Central Writings And Speeches
amazon.com/Essential-Pope-Benedict-XVI-Writings/dp/0061128848/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305574734&sr=8-1
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
I apologize if I’ve caused any consternation. Aside from indicating the source of the quote, what else are you looking to obtain from me?
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No need to apologize at all - Granny is just cranky because her worldview has just imploded like a house of cards.

AND the deathblow was dealt by none other than the Pope himself!

I would never have dreamt of such a supremely ironic state of affairs arising

Oh and Granny don’t worry, the citation is correct 😉 As you can see here:
novusordowatch.org/benedict/originalsin.htm
(to further the irony that excerpt is from a sedevacantist site, isn’t it amazing when you get ammunition from the least likely source) 😃

Look, they even have scans. Hell, they even have an alternative English translation from the German to make sure that you can’t excuse the apparent heresy due to mistranslation
http://www.novusordowatch.org/benedict/itb-sin.jpg
 
Al_Moritz said:
The CCC quote says nothing about sexual propagation, but talks about “transmission of a human nature”. Human nature includes the soul which is a special creation from God, and thus not sexually propagated.
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As there is no official mechanism listed by the CCC, the mean’s Pope Benedict’s opinion proposes should not be construed as heretical. Human nature encompasses reason, sentience, corporeality, life and immortal soul. Transmission of Original Sin can be channeled via one or more of these aspects of human nature, not just through corporeal means.

Note: I’m am not directing my comment at Al Moritz. I’m just picking up where he left off.
 
StAnastasia said:
This is intriguing, granny. If original sin and human nature are transmitted by sexual propagation, there ought to be a way of measuring or scientifically assessing this claim. If the tendency to original sin is not susceptible of being measured scientifically, then it is unclear how it is transmitted by sexual propagation.

StAnastasia
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This may come as a shock. The test for heaven does not include scientific measurements of your foot or any other part of your anatomy.
 
Soldier_Of_God said:
As there is no official mechanism listed by the CCC, the mean’s Pope Benedict’s opinion proposes should not be construed as heretical. Human nature encompasses reason, sentience, corporeality, life and immortal soul. Transmission of Original Sin can be channeled via one or more of these aspects of human nature, not just through corporeal means.

Note: I’m am not directing my comment at Al Moritz. I’m just picking up where he left off.
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Now I understand your real position.
 
Al_Moritz said:
The CCC quote says nothing about sexual propagation, but talks about “transmission of a human nature”. Human nature includes the soul which is a special creation from God, and thus not sexually propagated.
Click to expand...
Sounds as if you could use some info about the birds and the bees.
 
razredge said:
No need to apologize at all - Granny is just cranky because her worldview has just imploded like a house of cards.

AND the deathblow was dealt by none other than the Pope himself!

I would never have dreamt of such a supremely ironic state of affairs arising

Oh and Granny don’t worry, the citation is correct 😉 As you can see here:
novusordowatch.org/benedict/originalsin.htm
(to further the irony that excerpt is from a sedevacantist site, isn’t it amazing when you get ammunition from the least likely source) 😃

Look, they even have scans. Hell, they even have an alternative English translation from the German to make sure that you can’t excuse the apparent heresy due to mistranslation
Click to expand...
:rotfl:
 
Having watched this thread with a bit of interest - i have to remark on the following:

I don’t know what the point of this thread is.

Specifically - the manner in which “resolution” is supposed to come about doesn’t exist due to the high degree of variance placed on the importance of certain sources by the different interlocutors, along with the interpretations of those sources.

Prediction: Someone makes a logical slip up (we are human and fallible after all), the other side declares “victory,” self-congratulatory pats on the back and everyone goes home believing they are right.

Or people just get tired and walk away from the thread. Again, with everyone conveniently capable of retaining their own views.

Is this really a weighty discussion of the issues presented? Or just entertainment?
 
MatteoRicci said:
Having watched this thread with a bit of interest - i have to remark on the following:

I don’t know what the point of this thread is.

Specifically - the manner in which “resolution” is supposed to come about doesn’t exist due to the high degree of variance placed on the importance of certain sources by the different interlocutors, along with the interpretations of those sources.

Prediction: Someone makes a logical slip up (we are human and fallible after all), the other side declares “victory,” self-congratulatory pats on the back and everyone goes home believing they are right.

Or people just get tired and walk away from the thread. Again, with everyone conveniently capable of retaining their own views.

Is this really a weighty discussion of the issues presented? Or just entertainment?
Click to expand...
It is my observation, that this thread includes at least two direct attacks on the Catholic Church’s belief in God. The intention is to draw Catholics away from their religion or at the least to reduce their participation.

Unfortunately, free speech does not prevent unfair practices.
 
razredge said:
No need to apologize at all - Granny is just cranky because her worldview has just imploded like a house of cards.

AND the deathblow was dealt by none other than the Pope himself!

I would never have dreamt of such a supremely ironic state of affairs arising
Click to expand...
The part of man which is drawn towards evil is already within us-a disorder or perversity of sorts that can’t be easily dismissed or explained away. In other discourses -catechesis on original sin-Pope Benedict talks about the mystery of evil and how we can’t explain it logically-because evil’s not logical. He speaks of how the human heart is divided-“there is a contradiction in our being”.

**"The real answer to whether or not original sin exists requires men to distinguish between two aspects of the doctrine on original sin, Benedict said.

“There exists an empirical, tangible reality, the other relating to the mystery, the ontological foundation of the event. In effect, there is a contradiction in our being.

“On the one hand we know we must do good, and in our inner selves this is what we desire, yet at the same time we feel an impulse to do the opposite, to follow the path of egoism, of violence, to do only what he enjoys even though we know that this means working against good, against God and against our fellow man…This inner contradiction of our being is not a theory. We all experience it every day as around us we see the second of these two wills prevail. Suffice to think of daily news of injustices, violence, and dissipation. This is a fact. From the power evil has over our souls, a foul river of evil has arisen over history, poisoning the human landscape.”

Blaise Pascal, the Pope recalled, spoke of a “second nature,” which puts itself above man’s original nature. This “second nature” makes evil appear normal to man. Evil appears to have become a second nature.

“This contradiction of man, of his history must provoke, and provokes even today, the desire of redemption,” the Pontiff explained.

**
 
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