Modern Genetics and Adam & Eve

[Soldier_Of_God]

Having watched this thread with a bit of interest - i have to remark on the following:

I don’t know what the point of this thread is.

I believe the point of this thread is to discuss the impact of polygenism on the doctrine of Adam and Eve, and, by extension, the concept of Original Sin. Polygenism simply imputes there are more than one set of genetic parents. How this is reconciled with our faith is the crux of this thread and makes it significant as it affects Catholic doctrine and dogmas. From my perspective, it’s not an attack on God or the Church to attempt to synchronize science and faith doctrine. It must be noted, however, that evolution and incumbent models (e.g. polygenism) explain only the biological development of human beings and not their nature. Pope Benedict stresses the following during this past Easter speech:

If man were merely a random product of evolution in some place on the margins of the universe, then his life would make no sense or might even be a chance of nature.* But no, Reason is there at the beginning: creative, divine Reason.*

And because it is Reason, it also created freedom; and because freedom can be abused, there also exist forces harmful to creation. Hence a thick black line, so to speak, has been drawn across the structure of the universe and across the nature of man. But despite this contradiction, creation itself remains good, life remains good, because at the beginning is good Reason, God’s creative love.

Personally, I too assert we are not products of random chance. Science can only provide explanations on how biodiversity came into being, not what constitutes humanness. Our bodies are simply one component of human nature. Catholic doctrine tells us that we obtain our human nature from one set of source parents and that Original Sin propagates from one generation to the next. We just need to clarify what that entails from a theological perspective in light of polygenism and that’s what we are exploring here. The Church has developed it’s doctrines before in light of new truths. However, I do not support a change to doctrine (e.g. abandoning Original Sin propagation).

When all is said and done, the larger and more important questions of ‘why are we here’ and ‘what is my purpose’ is answered by Church teachings and not science.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Well spoken, Soldier of God.

 

[grannymh]

I believe the point of this thread is to discuss the impact of polygenism on the doctrine of Adam and Eve, and, by extension, the concept of Original Sin.

In reality, the idea of polygenism has only impacted some individuals.

It has not impacted the Catholic Doctrines surrounding the two, sole parents of the human species. The difficulty here is that many people do not know how the Holy Spirit protects Divine Revelation. Thus, they become confused when individual Catholics, including high ranking clergy, write books or preach.

Polygenism simply imputes there are more than one set of genetic parents.

From both scientific and theological positions, polygenism is not simple. The difficulty here is that some Catholics are unaware of what real polygenism means in the current scientific world. When it comes to accepting Divine Revelation, some Catholics simply ignore their responsibility.

How this is reconciled with our faith is the crux of this thread and makes it

significant as it affects Catholic doctrine and dogmas.

The difficulty here is that “our faith” does not always mean the Catholic faith. This difficulty does appear in some threads

From my perspective, it’s not an attack on God.

Real polygenism denies the power of God as Creator.

or the Church to attempt to synchronize science and faith doctrine.

The difficulty here is the ignorance of Catholic Church protocol.

It must be noted, however, that evolution and incumbent models (e.g. polygenism) explain only the biological development of human beings and not their nature.

It is definitly time for Catholic Apologetics to be updated regarding numerous scientific disciplines. Obviously, the above comment ignores the last 50 or so years of scientific research.

The Church has developed it’s doctrines before in light of new truths.

FYI - In regard to the Catholic Church, Divine Revelation containing the necessary truths for human salvation has been closed.

 

[grannymh]

The part of man which is drawn towards evil is already within us-a disorder or perversity of sorts that can’t be easily dismissed or explained away. In other discourses -catechesis on original sin-Pope Benedict talks about the mystery of evil and how we can’t explain it logically-because evil’s not logical. He speaks of how the human heart is divided-“there is a contradiction in our being”.

"The real answer to whether or not original sin exists requires men to distinguish between two aspects of the doctrine on original sin, Benedict said.

“There exists an empirical, tangible reality, the other relating to the mystery, the ontological foundation of the event. In effect, there is a contradiction in our being.

**“On the one hand we know we must do good, and in our inner selves this is what we desire, yet at the same time we feel an impulse to do the opposite, to follow the path of egoism, of violence, to do only what he enjoys even though we know that this means working against good, against God and against our fellow man…This inner contradiction of our being is not a theory. We all experience it every day as around us we see the second of these two wills prevail. Suffice to think of daily news of injustices, violence, and dissipation. This is a fact. From the power evil has over our souls, a foul river of evil has arisen over history, poisoning the human landscape.” **

**Blaise Pascal, the Pope recalled, spoke of a “second nature,” which puts itself above man’s original nature. This “second nature” makes evil appear normal to man. Evil appears to have become a second nature. **

“This contradiction of man, of his history must provoke, and provokes even today, the desire of redemption,” the Pontiff explained.

Thank you.

 

[StAnastasia]

Real polygenism denies the power of God as Creator.

Granny, can you explain how polygenism denies God’s power? If God is omnipotent, why should polygenism be a threat? Or do you see God’s power as somehow limited?

 

[grannymh]

Having watched this thread with a bit of interest - i have to remark on the following:

I don’t know what the point of this thread is.

Modern genetics is the point of this thread.
But it cannot be addressed adequately because of the ban on evolution discussions in this forum. Polygenism is a neutral replacement.

My personal area of interest is human origin based on the Catholic Deposit of Faith. My research includes the “catholic” opposition to two, sole parents of the human species. As you may recall from Catholic history, there have always been people, both inside and out, who have wanted to dismantle the Catholic Church.

CAF is a good place to discover the methods and materials of opposition to the reality of Adam and to the reality of Original Sin as taught by the Catholic Church. Because this opposition is decades old, I am finding people who have lost touch with real Catholic doctrines. When that happens, I try to inform people.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16-17

 

[nordskoven]

Our first parents, Adam & Woman, i.e., monogenesis, is perfectly consonant with “Scientific Adam” and “Mitochondrial Eve.”

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

In reality, the idea of polygenism has only impacted some individuals.

It has not impacted the Catholic Doctrines surrounding the two, sole parents of the human species. The difficulty here is that many people do not know how the Holy Spirit protects Divine Revelation. Thus, they become confused when individual Catholics, including high ranking clergy, write books or preach.

From both scientific and theological positions, polygenism is not simple. The difficulty here is that some Catholics are unaware of what real polygenism means in the current scientific world. When it comes to accepting Divine Revelation, some Catholics simply ignore their responsibility.

The difficulty here is that “our faith” does not always mean the Catholic faith. This difficulty does appear in some threads

Real polygenism denies the power of God as Creator.

The difficulty here is the ignorance of Catholic Church protocol.

It is definitly time for Catholic Apologetics to be updated regarding numerous scientific disciplines. Obviously, the above comment ignores the last 50 or so years of scientific research.

FYI - In regard to the Catholic Church, Divine Revelation containing the necessary truths for human salvation has been closed.

It’s not my goal to cause consternation with members of the CAF so I regret any frustrations I have caused. As to your comments, I cannot agree, disagree or respond to some of your suppositions as I believe they need to be elaborated on. Nonetheless, I do see the need for Catholic apologetics to be updated to reflect changes in scientific thought and enthusiastically agree with you in that regard. The personal difficulty I have is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is somewhat ambiguous on the transmission mechanism of Original Sin, which may be due to a personal limitation of comprehension on my part.

In addition, if absolute biological monogenism is the Catholic teaching, for me it needs to be more explicit than it is currently being explained. As of now, it is dressed within the human nature framework, which goes beyond mere physiology in terms of depicting what constitutes human authenticity. This framework lends itself to numerous interpretations. As you have correctly stately, this is a problem of understanding for some Catholics, which has been confusing even for those well fairly versed in Catholic teachings. According to your assessment, if this is a matter of salvation, I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church needs to be more definitive.

With regards to the Adam and Eve, the teaching as I now understand it to be is that we have biological descent from two historically real source people and Original Sin is simply “contracted” as a result of their transgression. In the meantime, polygenism is an issue that keeps appearing frequently in discussions and having a clear and logical response is our best safeguard in defending the Catholic faith. Many young people (and some not so young) and those outside of the Church roll their eyes at current teachings as it is insufficient for their intellectual assimilation. A more sophisticated and updated (but not necessarily liberal or modern) explanation would go far in assisting in Catholic apologetics.

Currently, I do not know what the Catholic protocol calls for in matters of Catholic apologetics where there is some indefinite understanding. As such, I may have not appropriately arranged my opinions through this thread. I appreciate the Catholic Church Magisterium takes great pains and time at deliberating such matters and rightly so. Personally, I have no difficulty assenting to the will of the Church and its teachings if that is what I’m called to do. I just require clarity as to what I’m assenting to.

 

[edwest2]

I think this issue must involve careful research of Church documents regarding the question of Adam and Eve. It should also be realized that an ongoing effort here and elsewhere, to convince Christians of polygenism is not about the truth in some cases.

First, we are descended from two individuals called Adam and Eve.

Second, the attempt is often made to identify the Hebrew word Adam as meaning man, i.e. a group of individuals.

Third. Why was Jesus Christ born? The Bible tells us that sin entered the world through one man.

bible.cc/romans/5-12.htm

Finally, Pope Benedict has made statements that I think all Catholics should be aware of:

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1645453.ece

Science has its place and we should be thankful, but Divine Revelation has its place as well. Who is Jesus Christ? What was the point of his death? These are questions science cannot answer but to which the Church bears witness. Original Sin was the reason, and His death made it possible for us to be saved and to be with Him.

Peace,
Ed

 

[grannymh]

Granny, can you explain how polygenism denies God’s power? If God is omnipotent, why should polygenism be a threat? Or do you see God’s power as somehow limited?

Polygenism is based on the philosophy of materialism. I have no problem with this philosophy when its limits are recognized.

Polygenism, based on scientific materialism, can explain insects, elephants, dinosaurs and birds because these are residents of the material/physical world. Polygenism, when applied to humans, has to eliminate the “made in the Image of God”’ factor. The consequence is the denial of the Catholic doctrine of God’s power to do so.

Catholicism uses the spiritual Image of God to describe how you and I are called to share in God’s life through knowledge (intellect) and love (will). Intellect and will are powers of the spiritual soul or, if you wish, the rational soul.

Important: Just because natural science does not address the spiritual world, this does not mean that science is evil.

What happens in real life, is that people choose to live their lives according to only science. Thus, the effect is the elimination of the spiritual.

What I actually said in post 142 is: “Real polygenism denies the power of God as Creator.”

I used the word “real” because many people are not aware of current polygenism research which attempts to eliminate the human need for anything spiritual. In other words, according to modern polygenism, the spiritual principle of human nature has never been created, thus denying God’s power to create. Those who wish to dismantle Catholicism from the inside clap their hands.

Blessings,
granny

Genesis 1: 1

 

[edwest2]

From Communion and Stewardship:

“Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[Al_Moritz]

Science has its place and we should be thankful, but Divine Revelation has its place as well. Who is Jesus Christ? What was the point of his death? These are questions science cannot answer but to which the Church bears witness. Original Sin was the reason, and His death made it possible for us to be saved and to be with Him.

…]

From Communion and Stewardship:

“Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms.”

Peace,
Ed

The Catholics here who try to reconcile convincing scientific data with the doctrine of original sin understand all these points and subscribe to them. You worry too much, Ed, and I am not quite sure if you actually understand our position.

 

[edwest2]

I believe I do understand:

Biology textbook: Necessary chemical reactions and a little physics.

Catholic Church: It is not possible to confirm what happened via science. Divine Revelation provides us with trustworthy information.

To clarify my position. I was talking with an old friend who went to the same Catholic school I did. Somehow, I don’t recall exactly, he found it necessary to say the following: “I don’t believe in God, I believe in evolution.” You see?

Peace,
Ed

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

To clarify my position. I was talking with an old friend who went to the same Catholic school I did. Somehow, I don’t recall exactly, he found it necessary to say the following: “I don’t believe in God, I believe in evolution.” You see?

Peace,
Ed

Yes, I do see and understand. That’s why some of us are here. We want to present the best case for Catholic doctrine to those inclined to see science as sovereign, not to undermine the Catholic faith. Your friend chose science because he sees it in conflict with Catholic theological doctrines. Let’s make a compelling argument for people like him so they can understand that it’s not the case.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, I do see and understand. That’s why some of us are here. We want to present the best case for Catholic doctrine to those inclined to see science as sovereign, not to undermine the Catholic faith. Your friend chose science because he sees it in conflict with Catholic theological doctrines. Let’s make a compelling case for him.

Interesting!

The religious geocentrists want to add dogma and the religious poly group want to change dogma. And both use the same tactics to intimidate Catholics and undermine the Catholic faith.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

Interesting!

The religious geocentrists want to add dogma and the religious poly group want to change dogma. And both use the same tactics to intimidate Catholics and undermine the Catholic faith.

You have a penchant of misconstruing my intentions. I’ve never advocated a change to dogma. I am seeking a way to deal with polgenism within doctrine. Did you manage to review my citations regarding Pope Benedicts comments on Original Sin?

 

[StAnastasia]

Polygenism is based on the philosophy of materialism.

No, it is not. It is merely a scientific hypothesis formulated to explain the evidence found in the human genome.

Polygenism, based on scientific materialism, can explain insects, elephants, dinosaurs and birds because these are residents of the material/physical world.

As are humans. At least, I inhabit the physical world, as does everyone I know, including my pastor.

Polygenism, when applied to humans, has to eliminate the “made in the Image of God”’ factor. The consequence is the denial of the Catholic doctrine of God’s power to do so.

False. It needn’t eliminate the imago Dei at all.

Catholicism uses the spiritual Image of God to describe how you and I are called to share in God’s life through knowledge (intellect) and love (will). Intellect and will are powers of the spiritual soul or, if you wish, the rational soul.

Other creatures share intellect and will with us, in varying degrees. And some humans do not share it with us, such as anancephalic infants.

What happens in real life, is that people choose to live their lives according to only science. Thus, the effect is the elimination of the spiritual.

Fortunately, Ken Miller and I and millions of Catholics who accept science do not do this.

In other words, according to modern polygenism, the spiritual principle of human nature has never been created, thus denying God’s power to create.

False.

Those who wish to dismantle Catholicism from the inside clap their hands.

Now you’re acting silly.

 

[StAnastasia]

You have a penchant of misconstruing my intentions.

I’ve been the victim of this misconstrual practice of Granny’s many times. It’s a form of bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. And it goes undisciplined.

I’ve never advocated a change to dogma. I am seeking a way to deal with polgenism within doctrine.

Excellent! Theology does not destroy dogma when it engages in dialogue with science.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

I’ve been the victim of this misconstrual practice of Granny’s many times. It’s a form of bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. And it goes undisciplined.

The sentiment is much appreciated. I do, however, understand that Granny is simply defending the faith to the best her ability, although it perhaps can do with some gentility. Thank-you for your (name removed by moderator)ut into this thread.

 

[Al_Moritz]

To clarify my position. I was talking with an old friend who went to the same Catholic school I did. Somehow, I don’t recall exactly, he found it necessary to say the following: “I don’t believe in God, I believe in evolution.” You see?

No, I don’t see. The fact that you mention this false dichotomy of “I don’t believe in God, I believe in evolution” shows that you really do not understand, as I suspected.

1. I don’t believe in evolution.
2. I believe in God and I accept evolution as a scientific fact – there is nothing to believe when it comes to the latter.
3. I believe evolution (physical, chemical, biological evolution) is God’s way of creating the material world.