Modern Music at mass?

[agapewolf]

If you look at the top right (usually), you will see a word such as:

Mein Hei*land or Nicaea

Those are the name of the “tunes”

Then you will see, usually at the bottom, numbers…such as

77 77 or 66.77.77 this is the “meter”

Go to this link and you will see the system.

cyberhymnal.org/index.htm#lk

What you are lamenting here is an ancient practice. Only lyrics need to be written because one can infer what notes to sing and how long to sing them for by these notes.

cyberhymnal.org/index.htm#lk

 

[benedictgal]

We’re stuck with Worship II which doesn’t seem to contain anything written after 1920 near as I can tell.

Not that I’m a fan of most modern music. But an occasional one would be nice. “Gift of Finest Wheat” is a lovely song. Questionable theologically, yes. But we’re all seminarians here. Think we can handle it.

But now we’re in the Lenten funeral dirge phase of music. I mean, I know Lent is supposed to be penitential, but my goodness. It doesn’t have to be downright depressing.

Do you really think that O Sun of Justice, Parce Domine and Attende Domine are funeral dirges? I would trade in my favorite red lipstick and matching handbag just for the chance to hear (and sing) these hymns in my parish. Instead, we’re stuck with Hosea, Just a Closer Walk with Thee, Eagles Wings and the other junk OCP publishes.:banghead:

Holy Week is just as bad with “Were You There”, “Come to the Feast/Ven al Banquete” and “The King of Glory”. I would rather hear (and sing) “All Glory, Laud and Honor”, “At the Name of Jesus (Worship III setting)”, “Sing my Tongue the Song of Triumph”, “What Wondrous Love Is This”, “At that First Eucharist” and “Pangia Lingua”.

I have a copy of Worship II. After hearing the OCP tripe, this is a welcome change (even though I don’t get to sing any of this stuff during Mass).

 

[stringbeanduck]

Just get them drums out of Mass please. They play them during communion for heaven sake. They serve no purpose at all there. You can have any where else. No loud voices either. I don’t like it when they go Mary J whats her name on “Amazing Grace” too. I will say I have not heard that in a while. I also like songs that are not very upbeat. That’s my thoughts.

 

[Seminarian_X]

Try “Jesus When I Think of Thee.” Where’s my prozac?

 

[THurifer2]

By “modern” I mean like soft rock, like “who Am I” by Casting Crowns or “I Can Only Imagine” by Mercy Me. Listen to K-LOVE sometimes, this is the music I am talking about. www.klove.com

Are you sure those songs are approved for use in the mass?

 

[ElizabethPH]

I don’t mind both, meaning to me the folk music; but I rarely go to that Mass as they started using a drum set and that IS pretty bad!

 

[harrisunt]

Just a correction sacredheart

The song “I can only imagine” does not line up with Catholic beliefs.

I* can only imagine
What my eyes will see
When your face
Is before me
I can only imagine

[Chorus:]
Surrounded by Your glory, what will my heart feel
Will I dance for you Jesus or in awe of you be still
Will I stand in your presence or to my knees will I fall
Will I sing hallelujah, will I be able to speak at all
I can only imagine *

We get to see His face every day at Mass. We are surrounded by His glory at Mass. We ARE IN His presence at Mass. We don’t have to imagine, and the fact that this song says I can only imagine is not true. This song is at best confusing, at worst contradictory to Catholic teaching.

I think you’re missing the point of the song. I see no problem saying I can ONLY imagine. You and I have no idea what the power of God’s physical presence will do to us and our soul when, God willing, we enter heaven. I under stand that God is with us everywhere. “Where two or more of you are gathered…”… I got it. But the song is about entering heaven and seeing God for the first time for his entire glory. We simply, due to the constraints of our human existence, are limited to imagining the fullness of God’s wonder and power.

This song is beautiful and seems to be hated, maybe disliked is a better word, because it is a Protestant staple. This song has given me chills in a Baptist church and brought me to new levels of worship during Mass as I prepare for my Crossing of the Tiber.

 

[agapewolf]

I think you’re missing the point of the song. I see no problem saying I can ONLY imagine. You and I have no idea what the power of God’s physical presence will do to us and our soul when, God willing, we enter heaven. I under stand that God is with us everywhere. “Where two or more of you are gathered…”… I got it. But the song is about entering heaven and seeing God for the first time for his entire glory. We simply, due to the constraints of our human existence, are limited to imagining the fullness of God’s wonder and power.

This song is beautiful and seems to be hated, maybe disliked is a better word, because it is a Protestant staple. This song has given me chills in a Baptist church and brought me to new levels of worship during Mass as I prepare for my Crossing of the Tiber.

Believe me, I do not dislike it because it is written by a protestant. I LOVE praise and worship music. I know that some folks dislike songs simply for that reason and that is unfortunate.

and I get the imagery…but again, as I said before, we as Catholics, don’t believe just that “God is everywhere” because “two or three are gathered”. I’m not simply talking about a nice gathering of folks…I’m talking about the Mass. Completely different. We believe that he actually IS sacramentally present in the Mass in the Eucharist. We believe that his full glory, and heaven touches earth in the Eucharist. We do not have to imagine, and we surely do more than imagine.

I’m saying that this song should not be played at mass because it is misleading and confusing. We already have enough Catholics who don’t believe in the real presence.

 

[pnewton]

Are you sure those songs are approved for use in the mass?

There is no approved list of songs for Mass.

 

[harrisunt]

Believe me, I do not dislike it because it is written by a protestant. I LOVE praise and worship music. I know that some folks dislike songs simply for that reason and that is unfortunate.

and I get the imagery…but again, as I said before, we as Catholics, don’t believe just that “God is everywhere” because “two or three are gathered”. I’m not simply talking about a nice gathering of folks…I’m talking about the Mass. Completely different. We believe that he actually IS sacramentally present in the Mass in the Eucharist. We believe that his full glory, and heaven touches earth in the Eucharist. We do not have to imagine, and we surely do more than imagine.

I’m saying that this song should not be played at mass because it is misleading and confusing. We already have enough Catholics who don’t believe in the real presence.

I think you’re confusing the song with a denial of the real presence in Mass. God in Mass and the God we will know in heaven are the same, but our understanding is beyond our comprehension. Again… hence the imagining. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this because we obviously have two different viewpoints on the song. Which is the beauty of art.

 

[agapewolf]

I think you’re confusing the song with a denial of the real presence in Mass. God in Mass and the God we will know in heaven are the same, but our understanding is beyond our comprehension. Again… hence the imagining. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this because we obviously have two different viewpoints on the song. Which is the beauty of art.

No, I’m not confusing it. The song is confusing. I’m not saying no one can like the song, and interpret it how they want.

You are missing my point. It should not be played at Mass.

 

[harrisunt]

I don’t see where that song can’t be played at Mass. If the song is contrary to Catholic teaching as you are asserting than you can’t have it both ways and play it outside of Mass and celebrate it while condemning it as a form of worship. I think your misinterpretation of the song itself is what is causing your confusion.

I think there is an extreme dislike of any form of change. Not just with this issue. All music was NEW sometime.

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t see where that song can’t be played at Mass. If the song is contrary to Catholic teaching as you are asserting than you can’t have it both ways and play it outside of Mass and celebrate it while condemning it as a form of worship. I think your misinterpretation of the song itself is what is causing your confusion.

I think there is an extreme dislike of any form of change. Not just with this issue. All music was NEW sometime.

The song is problematic for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass precisely for the reasons outlined by agapewolf. First of all, during the Holy Sacrifice, the veil between heaven and earth is lifted. We are in the presence of God in all of His divine majesty. The Mass is a foretaste of heaven. It is a glimpse of the heavenly liturgy alluded to in the book of Revelation.

Furthermore, we stand in the presence of God and serve Him, as indicated in the second Eucharistic Prayer. We manifest the very reality that this song only imagines at every Mass.

Now, regarding the type of music for use in the Mass, may I suggest this quote from Sacramentum Caritatis, written by our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI:

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. ***Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

His viewpoints as Pope have certainly not changed from the time he wrote “Spirit of the Liturgy.” In fact, they should be taken more seriously now that he is Supreme Pontiff.

 

[agapewolf]

I don’t see where that song can’t be played at Mass. If the song is contrary to Catholic teaching as you are asserting than you can’t have it both ways and play it outside of Mass and celebrate it while condemning it as a form of worship. I think your misinterpretation of the song itself is what is causing your confusion.

I think there is an extreme dislike of any form of change. Not just with this issue. All music was NEW sometime.

Harrisunt, if you will search my past posts, you will see I am an advocate of using new contemporary praise music at Mass. I LOVE it. I do not have a problem with new music, . I am not sitting here arguing against the song because I don’t like “new” music. please stop using that as an argument

There are many songs that are religious in nature, maybe even consistent with Catholic doctrine that should not be played at Mass (crowder hard stuff, etc) , so yes, you can have it both ways.

If you read my first post about it, I said, it is at best confusing, at worst contradictory. I am leaving leeway to interpret it as you wish. I am not “misinterpreting” the song. There are different meanings. My point is that in our church, we already have soooooo much confusion and disbelief in the real presence that a song that says “I can ONLY imagine” could possibly be dangerous and misleading. How do you know how others might interpret it? I know I am not the only one who sees this. I’m not saying my interpretation is the only way, nor the composers intentions. I’m simply saying that there are people who will interpret it in the confusing way, therefore, should not be used at Mass. Since you are interpreting the lyrics as an imagery of heaven only, and your faith isn’t in danger, then use it as a private inspirational song.

 

[harrisunt]

We’ll just run ourselves in circles on this issue. I thank you for the quote but for the reasons that I have already stated I do not believe that the song in question violates the Mass.

If we’re worried about misinterpretation perhaps we should leave the Gospels out of Mass too… (I kid, of course)

Thank you for your reply. I think I see your viewpoint much clearer now but I don’t agree with removing a song simply because a few people don’t have a strong conviction in the real presence.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please return to the original topic, people. Thank you.

 

[harrisunt]

For the record… I prefer a more traditional music from time to time. I also love to sing in Latin. It reminds me of my High School Choir days. It’s too bad we can’t train the entire parish to sing in 4 part harmony and sing some William Byrd.

I actually feel like I worship better in a non-native tongue like Latin or Spanish. Its one of the selling points I like about the Bilingual Mass.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

OK I STARTED THIS THREAD TO SEE OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS AND YOU HAVE ALL TURNED IT INTO AN ARGUEMENT. PLEASE STATE THE REASON YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE AND STOP TELLING OTHER PEOPLE THE THEIR OPINION IS WRONG. EVERYONE HERE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINON. I JUST MAKES ME DEPRESSED TO SEE A BUNCH OF GROWN CATHOLICS BEHAVING LIKE GRADE SCHOOL CHILDREN! WHY CAN’T YOU FOOLOW CHRIST’S COMMAND WHEN HE SAID LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF. YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED! :tsktsk: :banghead:

 

[KGH]

All the below rules are offered in a spirit of half-serious playfulness (!)

First rule of church music: NO music is better than BAD music. A completely spoken liturgy is far more reverent than one accompanied by badly done music by incompetent musicians.

Second rule: No musical genre is intriniscally bad. Theologians in the 16th century were very suspicious of Palestrina; some even called polyphony unsuitable for sacred music. Even Mozart was suspected by some in his day. We’re talking about art here; tastes change through the centuries. No one knows the sound of hymns sung by the apostles.

Third rule: Doctrinal content is important. No heresy. No calling God “Mother”, Jesus the “Child” of God, etc. Sentimentality, however much you may personally dislike it, is not heresy. In other words, there is a line, but one’s own personal taste is not necessarily the line. Church musicians get tired of “on Eagle’s Wings” at every single funeral, but it is (a) scriptural and (b) comforting to the bereaved.

Fourth rule: Use competent musicians. No cantors who can’t carry a tune, or accompanists who can’t accompany. Don’t even think about singing a capella unless you know you can hold pitch for more than 5 measure. Play with correct rhythms – those rests have a meaning, you know!

Fifth rule: Competent modern music is better than badly done classical music. I am a classical musician, and off-key Gregorian chant is incredibly annoying, as is improperly pronounced Latin.

As you can see, I believe that the quality of music is the biggest problem; too few parishes even consider whether the music minister, cantors, accompanists, etc. are competent. I have heard beautiful singing and reverent accompaniment in almost every musical genre, and I have heard almost every genre done atrociously. Competence, competence, competence – you wouldn’t have lectors who couldn’t read English, would you?

Not that I don’t have definite opinions, here!

Regards to all,

KGH

 

[Wolseley]

We’re talking about art here; tastes change through the centuries. No one knows the sound of hymns sung by the apostles.

Sure we do. Gregorian chant is based on ancient Jewish temple melodies.

“Closer study of these Jewish melodies has now revealed the surprising fact that numerous melodic formulas of Gregorian chant and even entire melodies are closely akin to, in part identical with, Jewish tunes. From this relationship we are fully justified in concluding that a considerable portion of what is now called Gregorian chant represents remnants of ancient Hebrew temple music, inherited by the Catholic Church. Thus it happens that, indirectly at least, a part of ancient Jewish music has been preserved in the guise of Catholic music.”

**Music, History, and Ideas **, by Hugo Leichtentritt. Cambridge, MA; Harvard University Press, 1938, pg 26.