"Modern" NO masses

[OhMalley]

I don’t have this feeling of “superiority”. I don’t know why people like to think just because we think the traditional liturgy is right we feel “superior”. I don’t think I’m infallible. So please don’t act like I’m condescending in any way. In fact, I feel there is certainly a place for the OF. Why is it so ridiculous that the TLM should be used? Why does this automatically imply that we are uncharitable and unloving?

What’s traditional? Far too many people around here label what they feel is “best” as traditional and it’s often a ridiculous use of the term.

I always pray every night for those things I can’t control. I trust that God has already heard our prayers. However, on those things I can control, I do my best to try and end them. It isn’t out of resentment, but for love of God. Remember, God works through people. He isn’t going to come down on Mt. Sinai and tell us to use the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

And you don’t think God has to power to STOP those things that bother you? Maybe there is a reason you are experiencing them?

I admit though, I do get upset when I see us trying to entertain ourselves, right in the presence of God in the Eucharist? Is it really that ridiculous? That I may become a little upset when I see people abusing the Body of Our Lord? The one who suffered so heavily on the cross? The one who took shame, mortification, and abuse enough? And now we have to abuse him even more in the form of liturgical abuse? Am I that crazy if I get a little emotional when I see this?

Why do you even notice such things – grave as they might be if you’re focused on the Mass? And I’m not talking about the mechanics of the Mass but THE MASS – THE SACRIFICE?

There are such things as liturgical abuses. We shouldn’t sit back and let them happen when we don’t have to. It’s not just me thinking that I am superior and that my understanding is superior. I just want us to follow what the GIRM and Magisterium tells us. That I DO consider superior. So if I have a superiority complex, then so do they.

God bless you.

You’re not the arbiter of what the “GIRM and Magisterium tells us” to do. Ever wonder what the local bishop has to say on the matters that so bug you?

 

[thunderballs75]

Boy, you are feisty! I like it.

What’s traditional? Far too many people around here label what they feel is “best” as traditional and it’s often a ridiculous use of the term.

Alright, maybe I don’t know what IS traditional. However, I do know that dancing during the middle of Mass, having people in the sacristy, and playing guitars and drums is *not *traditional.

And you don’t think God has to power to STOP those things that bother you? Maybe there is a reason you are experiencing them?

Of course God has the power to stop them. He is doing it alright through his servant Benedict XVI.

Why do you even notice such things – grave as they might be if you’re focused on the Mass? And I’m not talking about the mechanics of the Mass but THE MASS – THE SACRIFICE?

It’s hard not to notice. It’s not easy for me to just say “oh well” and “well, shoot, that’s okay, lets all just have fun anyways”. And the same thing goes for you. Why do you think you know what God wills? What makes you think God would rather you ignore grave abuses than try to correct them?

In case you didn’t know, the reason we are supposed to have reverence, is so that we can better focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Some of us don’t have superior attention spans like you, especially when there is distracting music playing.

You’re not the arbiter of what the “GIRM and Magisterium tells us” to do. Ever wonder what the local bishop has to say on the matters that so bug you?

The local bishop is allowed to disobey the authority of the pope or magisterium? He is allowed to go against the GIRM? I didn’t know that. Can you tell me where you learned this from? If there is nothing from the Catholic Church that teaches this, then what makes you the authority to say this?

God bless you.

 

[Ailina]

OhMalley, I don’t disagree with you. Like I said, I closed my eyes and prayed that I would not be so judgemental.

I have made an observation, however. The regular parish I go to, which is more Traditional, is always full. It’s nearly standing room only. When I’ve been to a more “modern” Mass, and I’ve been to a couple around town, there’s always seats available. Further, their bulletins show that they’re running in the red. However, my traditional parish has plenty of “extra” money. Interesting. I suppose to you could say that the traditional parish is in a very nice part of town, and it is, but so is the one I went to today. It’s actually near a country club and some very very nice houses.

That being said, I’m fortunate enough that I have plenty of choices here to vote with my feet.

Well fine, vote with your feet and attend your TLM. I am voting with my feet and sticking to my NO mass because I DO feel reverent there. There are four masses celebrated at my church on Saturday evening/Sunday, and often there are people left standing at the back at each of those masses. I have to say I would feel most unwelcome in your TLM church with all the sticky rules and so on that apparently need to be followed. In fact, I’m terrified to go, in case someone takes me aside and gives me heck for not following the proper protocol.

I never even knew this was an issue until I started visiting CA. It does appear very judgemental to me, all that tut-tutting about which mass is better. In fact, comments like this turn me off from even wanting to see what a TLM is like. Really.

 

[thunderballs75]

Well fine, vote with your feet and attend your TLM. I am voting with my feet and sticking to my NO mass because I DO feel reverent there. There are four masses celebrated at my church on Saturday evening/Sunday, and often there are people left standing at the back at each of those masses. I have to say I would feel most unwelcome in your TLM church with all the sticky rules and so on that apparently need to be followed. In fact, I’m terrified to go, in case someone takes me aside and gives me heck for not following the proper protocol.

I never even knew this was an issue until I started visiting CA. It does appear very judgemental to me, all that tut-tutting about which mass is better. In fact, comments like this turn me off from even wanting to see what a TLM is like. Really.

It’s easy. Don’t talk before Mass (in the chapel that is). Dressing nicely isn’t that hard. That’s all people would expect. And of course if you are coming from work or something, you have no choice. Other than that, you shouldn’t expect people to have any “huge protocols.”

It’s quite simple. Be respectful. People are quiet and respectful at assemblies, award ceremonies, funerals, etc. Why is it so wrong to do the same at Mass, when you are in the actual presence of Jesus Christ’s body (Not that I am accusing you of any of that)? And of course the Ordinary Form of the Mass is completely valid and legitimate if you have trouble with the Latin Mass.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Your missing the point – a subtle point that it took me a long time to understand. Your anger/dismay at Mass (or even outside of it) isn’t doing you (or God) one iota of good. It might give you a personal feeling of superiority – as if only you know what is “right” to have that emotion but it’s not doing anyone any good.

My peace is a product of God’s grace – it’s not of my own doing.

While I have certainly followed-up (outside of liturgy) on those things that I can effect change upon, with God’s grace they don’t make me angry/resentful/etc. like they certainly do many here during they Mass. On those things I cannot effect change immediately through more practical avenues my response is now prayer, not anger/dismay.

Actually,I got your point. And no, I was not feeling superior.

YOU missed MY point. That I get it now, why some people complain.

 

[GodIsGracious]

An interesting dichotomy. I agree with what you said in the first post, but can’t someone gravitate to a more traditional Mass for the same reason, i.e., it makes them feel good? I have seen some even post that they would not go to any Mass that was no the TLM. Judging Mass by the way one feels about it occurs as much for the feeling of reverence as it is for the feeling of happiness.

[bolded emphasis mine]

Good point and I don’t disagree that perhaps some people do so.

The Mass I attended last night was jolting. And one of the reasons why I left nearly 20 years ago. Things were becoming like a party. Why is it so wrong when one does not want to party at a sacrifice?

 

[GodIsGracious]

Well fine, vote with your feet and attend your TLM. I am voting with my feet and sticking to my NO mass because I DO feel reverent there. There are four masses celebrated at my church on Saturday evening/Sunday, and often there are people left standing at the back at each of those masses. I have to say I would feel most unwelcome in your TLM church with all the sticky rules and so on that apparently need to be followed. In fact, I’m terrified to go, in case someone takes me aside and gives me heck for not following the proper protocol.

I never even knew this was an issue until I started visiting CA. It does appear very judgemental to me, all that tut-tutting about which mass is better. In fact, comments like this turn me off from even wanting to see what a TLM is like. Really.

I wasn’t being judgemental. And I can understand why you might feel that way because some “traditonal” Catholic DO get judgemental. I wasn’t being judgemental, I was simply saying that I understand now why they do complain.

Oh, and you can quit being offended. I generally attend an NO Mass, I have never been to “my” TLM. It is just presented differently. Further, interesting that you COMPLETELY missed my comment about how there are different styles of masses for different styles of Catholics and that AT LEAST WE WERE ALL AT MASS. Please, do read that. Highlighted so it won’t be missed.

 

[GodIsGracious]

“…at least we were all at Mass.” That’s the WHOLE point!

Good! I’m glad you got my point.

The Mass (or other Catholic sacrificial liturgy) is SO PROFOUND that with God’s grace it will FAR OVERSHADOW the things we discuss on this forum.

Agreed.

Shocked about what? If your focus was truly on the supernatural sacrifice one could ask how you even noticed what bothered you.

Baloney. When you start seeing a dozen people walk up to the altar and congregate around it (and the altar was this oblong area in the center of this … cave-like church) and they’re pouring out the blood of Christ from a pitcher (glass, crystal, not sure what type) into other cups as if they’re simply pouring out kool aid, well, that my friend IS jolting. To me. Maybe not to you, but to me. Did you neglect to see where I said I would close my eyes and prayed to God to help me get present? Did you neglect to see where I really was accepting what was happening? Acceptance does not mean I’m going to like it.

I didn’t go into details, but I’ll mention another thing. Maybe I’m wrong, but I thought only priests and deacons were supposed to speak during the homily? Perhaps others can as well? If so, please let me know. Next time I’ll get up and cheer as if at a concert after the homily is presented rather than sitting and merely clapping when it is finished like everyone else did.

I didn’t realize I was at a party. But if that is how it is, shall I bring my party hat and noise maker?

Once the “Traditional” and “modern” labels come out I quickly lose interest. Good luck.

As all the NO folks who like hoopin’ and hollerin’ get all annoyed (see Ailina’s post above) when some of us want a more reverent mass, so do those of us who do want a more reverent mass get annoyed at the hoopin’ and hollerin’.

And since the “traditional” label was used in the first post why did you bother to post? Were you trying to correct me? Were you trying to correct me on the SACRIFICE of the MASS? You think I don’t know that? That’s why I was shocked and jolted at what I saw.

I simply came on here to say that I now UNDERSTAND and I now GET IT while traditional Catholics complain. If you can’t see that, well, then maybe you can’t begin to understand someone else’s point of view. I can see it from both sides.

And since you lost interest when the “traditional” label came out in the FIRST post you won’t be bothering to post in here anymore so good luck and good day to you.

 

[GodIsGracious]

You’re not the arbiter of what the “GIRM and Magisterium tells us” to do. Ever wonder what the local bishop has to say on the matters that so bug you?

Actually, I did wonder why the local bishop doesn’t do or say anything. I dunno, maybe he has, maybe he hasn’t. It’s been a while since I’ve been back and I AM NOT JUDGING, I just did not like what I saw.

That being said, I said I would go elsewhere because clearly the local bishop doesn’t mind since there is such a Mass.

Why do people MISS that in my posts?

 

[Ockham]

I realize that were this the only parish then I would have to go to it. But fortunately it is not. One of the things I love about the Church is Tradition. I sort of wondered if I was at some sort of protestant revival.

The modern NO Mass is more of a protestant revolution. Martin Luther would be quite proud of the similarities between his reforms and our current state.

 

[pnewton]

I never even knew this was an issue until I started visiting CA. It does appear very judgemental to me, all that tut-tutting about which mass is better. In fact, comments like this turn me off from even wanting to see what a TLM is like. Really.

That is because it is easier to be critical when one is anonymous. I am with you in that the attitude that the TLM fosters here at CAF is rather negative. However, it is unfair to expand that to what such a Mass would be like in person. I, like you, never dreamed some people would have such issues with the Mass. On the other hand, I never would have believed some of the stories of the way a few Masses are done.

In both extremes, it is usually the more fringe that get the attention here. This is why CAF gives a somewhat skewed view of reality, both of the TLM and the regular Mass.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

keep saying to myself, “There are different styles of Masses for different types of Catholics.”

… and there lies part of the problem as this attitude is actually quite common and as soon as someone adopts it they’ve lost sight of what the Mass is and why they’re there. It’s all about Me - capital ‘M’.

 

[GodIsGracious]

… and there lies part of the problem as this attitude is actually quite common and as soon as someone adopts it they’ve lost sight of what the Mass is and why they’re there. It’s all about Me - capital ‘M’.

I agree. I was trying to be charitable with my comment. Others here were down my throat for simply saying I understand now why some traditional Catholics complain about what they see at Mass.

Man, you can’t win for losing here.

 

[Chatter163]

Actually,I got your point. And no, I was not feeling superior.

YOU missed MY point. That I get it now, why some people complain.

I don’t have this feeling of “superiority”. I don’t know why people like to think just because we think the traditional liturgy is right we feel “superior”. I don’t think I’m infallible. So please don’t act like I’m condescending in any way.

There are such things as liturgical abuses. We shouldn’t sit back and let them happen when we don’t have to. It’s not just me thinking that I am superior and that my understanding is superior. I just want us to follow what the GIRM and Magisterium tells us. That I DO consider superior. So if I have a superiority complex, then so do they.

To both of you, I say fear not. The member to whom you are responding is quickly developing a history in these forums of telling others that either they really do not know what liturgical abuses are and that they are merely canonizing their own “opinions”, or, failing that, that they should not be noticing the abuses at all, both of which have been stated here. As justification for this, he goes on to state how others have a tendency to do this (which, of course, does sometimes happen); therefore he needs to stomp it out here and everywhere else. He tends to read into others hearts, and inform them what their true motivations are, as in this case, that someone was trying to feel “superior.” He rarely accepts the notion that people can be motivated out of genuine concern for the Sacred Liturgy, despite the teachings of the Holy Father in this area.

Both of you, please keep up your good work.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

So how many videos have been made of montages depicting abuses of the extraordinary form?

Just checking

 

[OhMalley]

Alright, maybe I don’t know what IS traditional. However, I do know that dancing during the middle of Mass, having people in the sacristy, and playing guitars and drums is not traditional.

Aside from the guitar (I would take Andres Segovia playing a classical guitar ANYTIME at Mass) the things you descibe are neither “conservative” nor “liberal” – in most cases they are simply wrong.

Of course God has the power to stop them. He is doing it alright through his servant Benedict XVI.

Is that right? And God did not use the long pontificate of Pope John Paul II to eradicate “abuses?” The point is God could instantaneously eliminate ALL abuses EVERYWHERE. Why doesn’t He do that?

It’s hard not to notice. It’s not easy for me to just say “oh well” and “well, shoot, that’s okay, lets all just have fun anyways”. And the same thing goes for you. Why do you think you know what God wills? What makes you think God would rather you ignore grave abuses than try to correct them?

It’s even more difficult to notice and then focus your attention away from such things! In my case it required the gift of God. I said NOTHING about “ignore(ing) grave abuses than try to correct them.” Go re-read my posting. I said with God’s grace such matters do not dominate my experience that is the Mass.

In case you didn’t know, the reason we are supposed to have reverence, is so that we can better focus on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Some of us don’t have superior attention spans like you, especially when there is distracting music playing.

Pray, pray, pray, pray. And practice, practice, practice…

The local bishop is allowed to disobey the authority of the pope or magisterium? He is allowed to go against the GIRM? I didn’t know that. Can you tell me where you learned this from? If there is nothing from the Catholic Church that teaches this, then what makes you the authority to say this?

What makes you think you know it all? You’ve skimmed the GIRM, RS, possibly some of the CofC and maybe a few encyclicals. Do you really believe you know of the fine details that make-up the Church in all situations? Are you sure there aren’t some subtle nuances you aren’t missing? I’ve seen more than a few GIRM-jockies make fools of themselves here and in person with their naive self-righteous proclaimations.

Sure there are most certainly things out there that need immediate attention but that certainly isn’t the great majority of things that are talked about on these forums.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Darn it all, more eye strain from rolling my eyes while reading an Oh Malley post.

 

[GodIsGracious]

To both of you, I say fear not. The member to whom you are responding is quickly developing a history in these forums of telling others that either they really do not know what liturgical abuses are and that they are merely canonizing their own “opinions”, or, failing that, that they should not be noticing the abuses at all, both of which have been stated here. As justification for this, he goes on to state how others have a tendency to do this (which, of course, does sometimes happen); therefore he needs to stomp it out here and everywhere else. He tends to read into others hearts, and inform them what their true motivations are, as in this case, that someone was trying to feel “superior.” He rarely accepts the notion that people can be motivated out of genuine concern for the Sacred Liturgy, despite the teachings of the Holy Father in this area.

Both of you, please keep up your good work.

Thanks, Chatter163!

 

[GodIsGracious]

Darn it all, more eye strain from rolling my eyes while reading an Oh Malley post.

:whacky:

 

[thunderballs75]

OhMalley:
Well I guess I can’t get the whole quote in, so I’ll try to remember what you said. I don’t think Andres Segovia is appropriate for Mass. His music is beautiful, but with that it is flamboyant. Similar to the Masses of Mozart. They’re beautiful, but not suitable for a solemn liturgy. Think I don’t know what I’m talking about? I guess St.Pius X didn’t know what he was talking about either.

As for the pontificate of JPII. We all know that this was when the folk Masses, clown Masses, and hippy Masses happened. Of course God is all-powerful, and could do anything he wants. Either way, what is your point? You are breaking balls here.

I will pray that I can be as blessed as you and be able to focus on the Sacrifice, no matter how many puppets pass me up.

Now the last comment is very offensive. I am not an idiot. I speak English just fine. You think I am so stupid, that I cannot understand the GIRM? The GIRM is a clear formula. There is no “interpretation” of it. You don’t have to be a genius to get it. You don’t have to be a master of Church history, encyclicals, or liturgy. Use some common sense here.

Are you so elitist that you think only you know what is important? You think you know which things are “okay” and “do not require immediate attention”? I guess that makes you an expert, huh?

God bless you.