Modern rabbinic Judaism, Deut.13:1-5 and Yeshua

[Lev23]

I have often seen those that follow modern rabbinic Judaism use Deuteronomy 13:1-5 to debunk Jesus(Yeshua). These people appeal to this passage as justifying their rejection of Jesus Christ.

BUT… Jesus(Yeshua) possessed all the characteristics of a true prophet, and He was so far from alienating the people from God and His worship that the grand object of His ministry was to lead to a purer, more spiritual and perfect observance of the law.

So those that hold that school of thought on Deuteronomy 13, step up!

Remember several chapters later in Deuteronomy 18:15, the people of Israel were told God will raise up a prophet like Moses among them, and Jesus(Yeshua) was like Moses in soooo many ways.

 

[Lev23]

Remember several chapters later in Deuteronomy 18:15, the people of Israel were told God will raise up a prophet like Moses among them, and Jesus(Yeshua) was like Moses in soooo many ways.

For starters-
Both are Israelites

Both delivered Israel out of slavery.

Both deliverers were promised in advance.

Both had to be subject to infanticide, the Pharoah of Egypt and King Herod tried to prevent the deliverer from being raised up.

Both left their thronerooms to identify with their bretheren, Moses from Pharoahs court, Jesus from his throne in heaven.

Both were prophets not only in telling future events, but told God’s feelings and directions for his people.

 

[HashemEchad]

I have often seen those that follow modern rabbinic Judaism use Deuteronomy 13:1-5 to debunk Jesus(Yeshua). These people appeal to this passage as justifying their rejection of Jesus Christ.

BUT… Jesus(Yeshua) possessed all the characteristics of a true prophet, and He was so far from alienating the people from God and His worship that the grand object of His ministry was to lead to a purer, more spiritual and perfect observance of the law.

So those that hold that school of thought on Deuteronomy 13, step up!

Remember several chapters later in Deuteronomy 18:15, the people of Israel were told God will raise up a prophet like Moses among them, and Jesus(Yeshua) was like Moses in soooo many ways.

Jesus violated Jewish Law and taught his followers to do the same. He told them to do something on the Sabbath that the Pharisees condemned him for doing.

He also made statements, copied from statements of other rabbis (in the Jewish oral writings), without giving proper credit. A BIG no-no in Jewish law because it is plagiarism (stealing words.)

This is why so many Christians think much of what Jesus said was so “profound”…because they think he originated the sayings, when he did not. This is what stealing the words of others does, it fails to give proper credit to the true authors of the words.

Might not seem like a big deal to Christians, but it is a violation of one of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Kaninchen]

and Jesus(Yeshua) was like Moses in soooo many ways.

Interesting that - one might even wonder if it was engineered in some way.

 

[HashemEchad]

Interesting that - one might even wonder if it was engineered in some way.

D’ ya think?

What Christians don’t grasp is: they are choosing to believe in a man whom we rejected for very good, sound reasons…and THEN they LOOK BACk to our Scriptures and try to find him in there.

Christians asking us to see Jesus in our Scriptures is akin to people who see signs in cloud formations, and say, “Look, can’t you see it too?” Its like the people who claimed to see the face of Mary on a tortilla.

I guess if you look long enough, you might see what they see, but its all a matter of interpretation…its like ultrasonography…one person sees the baby, one person doesn’t.

There was a very good reason why Hashem put Deut. 13 in the Torah: He knew that times would come (and indeed were happening then, as in ancient Egypt), when nonJewish cults would use “miracles” to try to deceive the Jewish people.

This is why God said “even if the signs come to pass”! Miracles ALONE are not an indication of Godliness, but foolish people think they are.

One thing I have noticed with the very few Jews I’ve met/heard of who converted to Catholicism: almost all did so because of a “vision”. THAT is why God put that warning in the Torah, because He knows how easily people can be tricked by “visions”.

Did not Jesus himself say, “An evil and an adulterous generation seeketh after a SIGN”? Even HE recognized it!

 

[Kaninchen]

D’ ya think?

What Christians don’t grasp is: they are choosing to believe in a man whom we rejected for very good, sound reasons…and THEN they LOOK BACk to our Scriptures and try to find him in there.

It’s not just the question of Jesus’ amazing ability to fulfill any ‘prophesy’ that could be achieved by text ‘manipulation’, it’s that they don’t seem to spot at all just how ridiculously contrived some of it is - this ‘like Moses’ stuff has excellent examples - like Herod killing kids (and nobody else in a nation of Herod-haters noticed!) just so Jesus could be ‘like Moses’.

 

[HashemEchad]

It’s not just the question of Jesus’ amazing ability to fulfill any ‘prophesy’ that could be achieved by text ‘manipulation’, it’s that they don’t seem to spot at all is just how ridiculously contrived some of it is - this ‘like Moses’ stuff has excellent examples - like Herod killing kids (and nobody in a nation of Herod-haters noticed!) just so Jesus could be ‘like Moses’.

Exactly. There is a woman named Amy-Jill Levine who is Jewish and a Professor of New Testament Studies (I forget the university). She points out how the early Christians took great pains to show up a similarity too.

 

[adstrinity]

Well, wait. Speaking about Jesus and Moses, Moses & Elijah were Transfigured with Jesus. How would it be possible for the one who brought the Law and a Prophet of God to be with Jesus if it wasn’t a miracle and if He wasn’t God?

 

[HashemEchad]

Well, wait. Speaking about Jesus and Moses, Moses & Elijah were Transfigured with Jesus. How would it be possible for the one who brought the Law and a Prophet of God to be with Jesus if it wasn’t a miracle and if He wasn’t God?

You speak of the “transfiguration” as if it historically happened. Only Christians believe it happened, and the only evidence it did is the NT, a religious work accepted only by Christians.

That’s like a Buddhist saying, “But the 14th Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of every other Dalai Lama!” Uh, only because Buddhists believe that, it doesn’t mean it really happened.

 

[SORROWS]

Jesus healed a mans hand on the Sabbath and is a miracle for human needs. Jesus explained Mark 3:1-6 that the Sabbath is for all mankind but in regard to our human needs - in this case this man with a whithered hand - that surpasses any non action on this day.

Jesus is very clear. Our love and concern for others always takes precedent.

 

[HashemEchad]

Jesus healed a mans hand on the Sabbath and is a miracle for human needs. Jesus explained Mark 3:1-6 that the Sabbath is for all mankind but in regard to our human needs - in this case this man with a whithered hand - that surpasses any non action on this day.

Jesus is very clear. Our love and concern for others always takes precedent.

Where do you think Jesus got that idea from? Judaism has ALWAYS taught that it is not only permissible but COMMANDED to break the Sabbath to save human life.

Its a shame Jesus did not properly attribute where he learned that teaching from (i.e., which Talmudic tractate), because it would have prevented generations of Christians from wrongly assuming Judaism teaches that you cannot break the Sabbath to save human life or to help people in serious need.

And that incident was not the one I was referring to anyway, when I said Jesus broke the Sabbath.

 

[SORROWS]

We all know Jesus was born a Jew. Unfortunately the Bible is limited in explanation which is why we have different understanding of verses, not to mention - religions with different interpretations.

I don’t want to derail this thread and your post has quite a bit of reasons for Jesus’s “violations” and so on. As a Catholic I want to try and understand your position. Different understandings and beliefs.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

Jesus violated Jewish Law and taught his followers to do the same. He told them to do something on the Sabbath that the Pharisees condemned him for doing.

He also made statements, copied from statements of other rabbis (in the Jewish oral writings), without giving proper credit. A BIG no-no in Jewish law because it is plagiarism (stealing words.)

I think it is slightly unfair to focus on these two points.

The practice of the Law in that time period seems awfully contentious, with group upon group arguing over one point or another. If we are to accept Josephus’s account (which personally I find to be lacking in serious authority) there were at least four mainstream groups- and even then, most of them do not display codified behavior to necessarily separate them, unlike, for example, modern Christianity where one can tell the Calvinist from the Catholic…

We also have no way of knowing if Jesus annotated his thoughts since he was not the writer of the Gospels- and the audience that adopted them as the centuries wore was not necessarily immersed with a Jewish background. Couple this with the intent of the writings, the ancient format (I’d say up until the 1800s really) of Western writers writing anonymously, the practice of adopting historical figures to bolster one’s argument, and a lack of organization- and I don’t think this is necessarily something that you could pin on Jesus.

I feel the argument would work better on Saint Paul, and the other epistle writers, and even then it is tenuous because we don’t necessarily have with certainity letters written as they originally appeared. For example both Epistles of Corinithians are likely amalgamations of several correspondences. At one point, the majority of the works that consist of the New Testament were not necessarily written to be preserved historically.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

That being said, I don’t think it is possible for a Christian to see the Jewish persepective, or the Jew to see the Christian persepective because of the philology of both are completely different animals.

We can see fairly clearly this division in the works of Philo (and in this sentence.) One motif of Philo’s is to change the concept of hearing into the concept of sight. Most words for “truth or a truth” in Indo/European language and thought stem from the verb “to see” in some way or another. This is not so in the Ancient Near East. Plato sees. Aristotle sees. Philo sees.

But Isaiah hears, David hears, Israel hears…

And there is almost an inability to properly communicate between Hebrew (the Ancient Near East) and Greek (Indo-European thought).

I’d this is why Christian writers have called Jews “stubborn” throughout the centuries, or why I’ve yet to come across a Jewish writer who has properly argued against the concept of a Truine God.

And this division is especially apparent in terms of justification. I’d suggest the writings of Rabbi Abraham Herschel for those on this forum who are Christian- if you read what he writes on justification of the soul, you will see a position that isn’t too far removed (if at all) from Saint Paul.

Saint Paul is an excellent example of comprehension- throughout his ministry, it seems that he was better received in harbor cities which were either hellenized or had heavy proselytized Jewish communities moreso than in a city such as Athens- the principal seat of ancient Greek culture.

The point being, the scandalon of Jesus is in the mind.

 

[Lev23]

He also made statements, copied from statements of other rabbis (in the Jewish oral writings), without giving proper credit. A BIG no-no in Jewish law because it is plagiarism (stealing words.)

This is why so many Christians think much of what Jesus said was so “profound”…because they think he originated the sayings, when he did not. This is what stealing the words of others does, it fails to give proper credit to the true authors of the words.

Might not seem like a big deal to Christians, but it is a violation of one of the Ten Commandments.

A Christian who knows the prophecies of Messiah would be quick to point out that his parables and teachings were prophecied about, that he would not come with some strange new teaching to Israel.

Yeshua’s parables dealt with mysteries in the New Testament, they are different from the ones in the Old Testament for they explain things not revealed in the Old Testament.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

All who read their scriptures when Jesus taught his parables knew about the Kingdom from the prophets. Jesus’ parables contain information for his Kingdom in view. The information are for the those that can understand them, because they seek the Kingdom of God.

Jesus said to each of the seven churches in Rev 3-
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

Jesus’ ministry of parables is prophesied-
Psalm 78
O my people, hear my teaching;
listen to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter hidden things, things from of old-
what we have heard and known,
what our fathers have told us.
We will not hide them from their children;
we will tell the next generation
the praiseworthy deeds of the LORD,
his power, and the wonders he has done.
He decreed statutes for Jacob
and established the law in Israel,
which he commanded our forefathers
to teach their children,
so the next generation would know them,
even the children yet to be born,
and they in turn would tell their children.
Then they would put their trust in God
and would not forget his deeds
but would keep his commands.
They would not be like their forefathers—
a stubborn and rebellious generation,
whose hearts were not loyal to God,
whose spirits were not faithful to him.

Notice in verses 2-3, that his parables will sound like the Jewish “fathers”, and you yourself said that they do.

Jesus never “stole words” like you claim he did.

False Messiahs cannot reveal mysteries, they are unbelievers by definition and they never sound like the fathers, the ancestors of old. They always come with some new and unfamiliar doctrine.

Jesus’ parables had to do with the Kingdom to come, which was foretold in the Old Testament.

 

[Valke2]

13:1 “Everything that I command you: yo ushall be watchful to do it. You shall not add onto it, and you shall not subtract from it.”

And so here we have come full circle from the Garden of Eden story, in which Adam apparently adds to the commandment of God by telling Eve they are prohibited from touching the tree. This is one of the most important commandments, since it affects all other commandments.

13:2-4 "When a prophet or one who has a dream will get up among you and will give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you – saying, ‘Let’s go after other gods,’ whom you haven’t known, ‘and let’s serve them’ – will come to pass, you shall not listen to that prophet’s words or to that one who has the dream, because Hashem, your God, is testing you, to know whether youare loving Hashem your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

13:5 You shall go after Hashem, your God, and you shall fear Him, and you shall observe His commandments and listen to His voice, and serve Him.

This is pretty clear. Observe the commandments. It doesn’t say anything about abandoning them.

 

[Kaninchen]

Jesus never “stole words” like you claim he did.

I agree, it’s a bit like saying ‘Gandalf stole words’ or ‘Harry Potter stole words’ - Jesus’ ‘life’ and words are the constructs of the authors of the texts.

 

[Lev23]

13:1 “Everything that I command you: yo ushall be watchful to do it. You shall not add onto it, and you shall not subtract from it.”

And so here we have come full circle from the Garden of Eden story, in which Adam apparently adds to the commandment of God by telling Eve they are prohibited from touching the tree. This is one of the most important commandments, since it affects all other commandments.

13:2-4 "When a prophet or one who has a dream will get up among you and will give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you – saying, ‘Let’s go after other gods,’ whom you haven’t known, ‘and let’s serve them’ – will come to pass, you shall not listen to that prophet’s words or to that one who has the dream, because Hashem, your God, is testing you, to know whether youare loving Hashem your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

13:5 You shall go after Hashem, your God, and you shall fear Him, and you shall observe His commandments and listen to His voice, and serve Him.

This is pretty clear. Observe the commandments. It doesn’t say anything about abandoning them.

Yeshua never abandoned the commandments.

 

[Lev23]

Kanichen and HashemEchad, when both of you are done chit-chating with one another, I’ll be in the break room enjoying a cup of coffee until your ready to discuss.
:coffeeread:

 

[Lev23]

D’ ya think?

What Christians don’t grasp is: they are choosing to believe in a man whom we rejected for very good, sound reasons…and THEN they LOOK BACk to our Scriptures and try to find him in there.

What you don’t grasp is the first Christians, who were all Jews, witnessed to the Jews first, and later the gentiles. They didnt have to “find” Yeshua in the scriptures. They walked with him, and in addition to their own eyewitness accounts, they proved he was Messiah from the scriptures.