Modern understanding of Transubstantiation?

[Thorns]

You can’t just have a container of “calories”. Calories do not exist on their own; they exist in something. Thus they are “accidents” that subsist in a “substance” (per your example, the Communion bread that contained 5 calories).

If the nutritional value of bread remain (and doesnt convert to the nutritional values of human flesh), its still just bread it seems.

If the appearance of bread and wine remain, fine, but it would have to be composed of something different, if we’re claiming that its actually something different at that point.

As.a.side thought, why does the Catholic Church believe that Christs flesh continues to be transubstantiated to this day? Where does Christ say this?

He says it truly was His flesh, could He have meant for that night only at the Last Supper that it was converted? He said do this in His memory, but He did not say that He would pass on the power to convert bread into flesh.

 

[Nita]

…
As.a.side thought, why does the Catholic Church believe that Christs flesh continues to be transubstantiated to this day? Where does Christ say this?

He says it truly was His flesh, could He have meant for that night only at the Last Supper that it was converted? He said do this in His memory, but He did not say that He would pass on the power to convert bread into flesh.

If it didn’t convert from bread to flesh, then when they did it, it wouldn’t be** “this”** — it would be something else. Jesus was telling them they should/could do “this” - exactly what He did.

 

[Aloysium]

John 6:25-71 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

Does this help?

 

[Aloysium]

Bread is food. Its physical structure is such that it provides for physical nutrition.

The Eucharist is the bread of life:

CCC: 1391-1396 Holy Communion augments our union with Christ. the principal fruit of receiving the Eucharist in Holy Communion is an intimate union with Christ Jesus. Indeed, the Lord said: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” Life in Christ has its foundation in the Eucharistic banquet: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me."
On the feasts of the Lord, when the faithful receive the Body of the Son, they proclaim to one another the Good News that the first fruits of life have been given, as when the angel said to Mary Magdalene, “Christ is risen!” Now too are life and resurrection conferred on whoever receives Christ.

What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of the risen Christ, a flesh “given life and giving life through the Holy Spirit,” preserves, increases, and renews the life of grace received at Baptism. This growth in Christian life needs the nourishment of Eucharistic Communion, the bread for our pilgrimage until the moment of death, when it will be given to us as viaticum.

**Holy Communion separates us from sin. the body of Christ we receive in Holy Communion is “given up for us,” and the blood we drink “shed for the many for the forgiveness of sins.” **For this reason the Eucharist cannot unite us to Christ without at the same time cleansing us from past sins and preserving us from future sins:
For as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord’s death, we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may always forgive my sins. Because I always sin, I should always have a remedy.

As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins. By giving himself to us Christ revives our love and enables us to break our disordered attachments to creatures and root ourselves in him:
Since Christ died for us out of love, when we celebrate the memorial of his death at the moment of sacrifice we ask that love may be granted to us by the coming of the Holy Spirit. We humbly pray that in the strength of this love by which Christ willed to die for us, we, by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, may be able to consider the world as crucified for us, and to be ourselves as crucified to the world… Having received the gift of love, let us die to sin and live for God.

By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the Eucharist preserves us from future mortal sins. the more we share the life of Christ and progress in his friendship, the more difficult it is to break away from him by mortal sin. the Eucharist is not ordered to the forgiveness of mortal sins - that is proper to the sacrament of Reconciliation. the Eucharist is properly the sacrament of those who are in full communion with the Church.

The unity of the Mystical Body: the Eucharist makes the Church. Those who receive the Eucharist are united more closely to Christ. Through it Christ unites them to all the faithful in one body - the Church. Communion renews, strengthens, and deepens this incorporation into the Church, already achieved by Baptism. In Baptism we have been called to form but one body. The Eucharist fulfills this call: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? the bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread:"
If you are the body and members of Christ, then it is your sacrament that is placed on the table of the Lord; it is your sacrament that you receive. To that which you are you respond “Amen” (“yes, it is true!”) and by responding to it you assent to it. For you hear the words, “the Body of Christ” and respond “Amen.” Be then a member of the Body of Christ that your Amen may be true.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . If the appearance of bread and wine remain, fine, but it would have to be composed of something different, if we’re claiming that its actually something different at that point. . .

If a physical universe were the true ultimate reality, then something being different would mean that there was a difference in the physical structure or make-up, because that’s all there would be.

Check out: htwins.net/scale2/ From the depths of infinitely small to the grandeur of galaxy clusters, all this exists; it is and for billions of years.

Remember that all moments and all places, all this and more have been brought into creation, through His Word in eternity.
It is God who creates what is real and true.

The Eucharist, as the body of Christ is a fundamental Reality - the Way, returning us to our rightful place: in loving union with our Creator.

 

[Thorns]

Does this help?

Im afraid its not clear. Is it allegorical? Did it mean that it was only His flesh at the Last Supper? Where did Jesus express that He would allow them to pass on this power of transubstantiation?

 

[Thorns]

If it didn’t convert from bread to flesh, then when they did it, it wouldn’t be** “this”** — it would be something else. Jesus was telling them they should/could do “this” - exactly what He did.

Where does He say that?

Doing something in memory of someone isnt the same as having that person’s power. A memorial service does not bring a person back to life, but it does.bring that person to mind- mentally but not physically.

 

[PNEUMA]

…The Eucharist is the bread of life:

Yes, because of the word of life, that made it the bread of life.

 

[Aloysium]

Im afraid its not clear. Is it allegorical? Did it mean that it was only His flesh at the Last Supper? Where did Jesus express that He would allow them to pass on this power of transubstantiation?

I will state this as clearly as I can: your appreciation of the fundementals of Reality is deficient.

How you got to this point is a reflection of the nonesense being pushed by secular society.
From here on in having been made aware that things are otherwise, it is now your responsibility.
Much study, prayer and actual participation in the mass and the Eucharist, is required.
You would do well also to spend time in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[SPH1]

There are some things that will always be beyond our understanding.

Characterizing the body and blood, soul and divinity of God with a math equation? Really?

IMO.

I typed too quickly. I meant that physics may one day be able to show in an equation transubstantiation in general…to anything. Not to God or that transubstantiation definitely takes place at the Eucharist. Just its possibility.

The whole matter/accident thing sounds like something in general for physics one day. And I believe that the Church acknowledges that true science and religion can be compatable insofar as knowing the truth of the natural world.

 

[SPH1]

Where does He say that?

Doing something in memory of someone isnt the same as having that person’s power. A memorial service does not bring a person back to life, but it does.bring that person to mind- mentally but not physically.

Of course, the Mass/Eucharist isn’t simply a memorial service. And since Christ is the high priest at every Mass, it is done with his power.

 

[PNEUMA]

Of course, the Mass/Eucharist isn’t simply a memorial service. And since Christ is the high priest at every Mass, it is done with his power.

To me, our tabel is just an extension of the Lord’s table, and the priests are only echoing the words of our Lord. It’s all just one Supper, extended in time and space.

 

[SPH1]

To me, our tabel is just an extension of the Lord’s table, and the priests are only echoing the words of our Lord. It’s all just one Supper, extended in time and space.

The one table extended in time and space where the whole Church gathers. Yes! I’ve thought that for decades!

Have similar view with the Mass: in it the cross of calvary still stands through time and space.

 

[Richca]

That seems inconsistent. The accidents as far as appearance, feel, taste, weight may remain, but calorically, if it is literally not bread and wine, then that nutritional information should change while remaining under the illusion of bread and wine. We are saying it is literally Christs flesh, not figuratively or simply spiritually.

Hello thorns,
You are confusing substance with accidents. In transubstantiation, the substance changes but the accidents of the bread and wine remain. Now the accidents of the bread and wine are anything that can be observed physically such as the feel, taste, weight, shape, size, chemical make-up.
Substance of itself is indivisible, not after the manner of a point, but after the manner of that which is outside the order of dimension. Quantity or extension which is an accident extends a substance into parts and three dimensional space and thus makes a material substance visible.
Now the nutritional information of bread and wine comes from its chemical make-up but the chemical make-up of the substances of bread and wine which we can observe is an effect of quantity which is an accident and the accidents of the bread and wine remain after the consecration. Therefore, the nutritional information of the bread and wine after the consecration is going to appear to be the same. And Aquinas says that “as it is an effect of Divine power that the sacramental species (the accidents) exist without substance, so is it an effect of Divine power that they can act without a substantial form, because every action of a substantial or accidental form depends upon God as the first agent.” (ST Part III, Q.77, art. 4).

 

[Nita]

Originally Posted by Nita

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, **“This **is my body which is given for you. **Do this **in remembrance of me.”

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;11900673:

To me, our tabel is just an extension of the Lord’s table, and the priests are only echoing the words of our Lord. It’s all just one Supper, extended in time and space.

The one table extended in time and space where the whole Church gathers. Yes! I’ve thought that for decades!

Have similar view with the Mass: in it the cross of calvary still stands through time and space.

Yes, in this case He feeds the multitude (the whole world) with one bread and one cup of wine, an incredible scene, that only few can see.

 

[Nita]

Doing something in memory of someone isnt the same as having that person’s power. A memorial service does not bring a person back to life, but it does.bring that person to mind- mentally but not physically.

The reason for doing something doesn’t alter what the “something” consists of. Because they were to do it in “remembrance” doesn’t alter what “this” means.
"This" this is to be done in remembrance.
"This" = 1) taking bread 2) saying the words “This is My body” 3) and the bread then becomes Jesus’ body. That is what Jesus is telling them to do; He very specifically says** “Do this**…” – “this” encompasses all 3 of the points above.

As far as the having the power – Jesus would never command the apostles to do something that would be impossible for them to carry out – something He could not make possible for them to do.

Of course it is God’s power (not the person’s power) that accomplishes it. ** It is Our Lord’s power present in and working through the person and words of the priest.**

*1 Cor 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” *

 

[Thorns]

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, **“This **is my body which is given for you. **Do this **in remembrance of me.”

How does this imply that the power to convert bread into flesh has been passed on?

Its not as clear as when Jesus gave Peter the keys.

 

[Nita]

How does this imply that the power to convert bread into flesh has been passed on?

Its not as clear as when Jesus gave Peter the keys.

See my post #116 just above yours. (Apologies for all the editing I did after first submitting it.)

 

[CSJ]

Yes it is supernatural but we also believe that the bread literally AND physically changes. I can see your explanation sufficing for the soul, for example, because the soul is immaterial and strictly spiritual. You do realize that Catholicism teaches the bread and wine physically and literally change, not just spiritually? If something undergoes a physical change, it should by definition, be able to be explained physically as well. Not that I doubt the word of God, but anyone can claim anything in any philosophy and there has to be a reasonable way, objectively, to separate truth from falsehood.

My post did not state that there is no physical change - on the contrary. I agree that there is a physical change however the change is limited to the substance and not the accidents of the first substance. I was emphasizing that there is no natural explanation that will suffice when we are dealing with the supernatural…any attempt would be inadequate and even the greatest analogical similarities have greater dissimilarities.

The Eucharist is the most wonderful of subjects to discuss, however it would be less a wonder to discuss if we could just explain it away. The physical world is finite and we will never be able to use finite terms to fully explain the infinite. The fact that it is a miracle and a gift from God should never cease to fill us with awe.

God Bless,
CSJ