Modernism in the Orthodox Church

[brigantine]

It seems to be getting out of control in the RCC especially with nuns who operate retreat centers teaching things like: Enneagram, Mandalas, labyrinth walking, reiki, and eco-spirituality. Also, I believe that the Roman Catholic charismatic movement is an aping of the protestant charismatic revivalist sects.

It always puzzled me when I was Catholic why the Holy Father did not stamp this out. Now that I’m exploring returning to the Catholic Church I’m still puzzled. Hopefully this Pope does correct the problems that have rose up.

AS long as Orthodoxy in America remains small, the problem is minimized. Should it really grow, you are more likely to encounter the goofballs.

Someone said that as many as 25% of people are outright loons. If that is true, the small the population you draw from, the less loons you have.

I agree with this somewhat but the problems in Orthodoxy manifest themselves in different ways. If there were more Orthodox you may see more splintering into more “Traditional” or “Genuine” churches as opposed to the more modernist manifestations seen in Catholicism.

 

[Mickey]

AS long as Orthodoxy in America remains small, the problem is minimized. Should it really grow, you are more likely to encounter the goofballs.

Someone said that as many as 25% of people are outright loons. If that is true, the small the population you draw from, the less loons you have.

Is this all conjecture and opinion or do you fancy yourself as a clairvoyant?

 

[Mickey]

It always puzzled me when I was Catholic why the Holy Father did not stamp this out. Now that I’m exploring returning to the Catholic Church I’m still puzzled. Hopefully this Pope does correct the problems that have rose up.

You have no idea how long I have been praying for that. I used to write many letters to those in high places when I was Catholic. I could never understand why the bishops would do nothing.

If there were more Orthodox you may see more splintering into more “Traditional” or “Genuine” churches as opposed to the more modernist manifestations seen in Catholicism.

Good point. It very well could go the other way.

 

[ralphinal]

Is this all conjecture and opinion or do you fancy yourself as a clairvoyant?

Some of it is from observation. About 25% of people will accept any possible thing if the story is good or the television says to.

If you look around, you will agree.

That said, I am taking for granted that the Orthodox in America is a small enough sample to avoid that. Catholics are not. You add to it the fact that loons attract other loons, and there you go.

Seriously, I was always impressed with something that Cardinal Arinze once said about liturgical abuses (it applies to everything else wrong in the Church, though). When asked about it, he said that he had never seen one single liturgical abuse in his life. Not one. Sure, he had gotten reports of them. Sometimes, he even sent in investigators to check it out. But, somehow, when he walked in the door, even the most problematic parish was right by the rubrix as if they had written them. “For some reason, they all act right when the Cardinal is looking.” It is the same way with all of these goofball groups. IF the pope knocked on the door, there would be no New Age **** to be found. Once he leaves, Katie bar the door!

Many times, Rome is aware of the problems, but when they check in, the problems are not there.

Now, as far as Catholic Politicians being anti-CAtholic, JPII had the best statement on it. To sum it up, it will be a problem until Catholics quit electing them. AS long as we are a democracy, we get what we vote.

 

[brigantine]

Good point. It very well could go the other way.

This could be just as damaging as the outcome will be this: gocamerica.org/

This “Archbishop Gregory” has literally been through a dozen Orthodox jurisdictions thought the world. He leaves each when HE perceives heresy and goes to another more “Genuine” Church. Well after leaving the last one he decided the only thing to do was to start his own which does not recognize any other Orthodox Church!

 

[josie_L]

In the Americas, I’ve heard that in 2006 it was documented that Orthodoxy was the fastest growing Christian religion. It is definitely heavily populated by people of “Western” mind-set and yet it is not overflowing with rebellion as we see, and you refer to above, in the Catholic Church today.

In the Catholic Church today you see people rebelling in both directions - some claiming to be more Catholic than the Pope & others claiming that Papacy is outdated.

The root cause, I believe, is that people tend to have a rebellious spirit against human authority in general.

The leader of the Catholic Church is a man, one human Bishop - human authority.

Yet the leader of the Orthodox Church remains to be Jesus Christ Himself - authority not of this world.

When you answer to the Highest Authority…you do all you can to keep yourself in check.

The leader of the Catholic Church is Christ; the designated head of the visible church is the Pope.

 

[LJinPA]

I’m not sure how to explain this, but there is something about Eastern Christian thinking and Orthodoxy that reminds me a little of the traditional Italian Catholicism I grew up around…especially southern Italian. American Catholicism seems to have a base in northern European Catholicism w/ a touch of Jansenism.
I suspect the “spirit of the law over the letter” high context approach was common with Italian immigrant Catholicism years ago.

Purhaps dissent if it did occur took a different form in the east. From the stories I hear from older Catholics I know, there was some dissent years ago but people did it in private. If you didn’t agree with what you were taught you said “yes Father”, do things your way in private, but never argue theoology or try to publicly change things. It’s a vague observation and I may be off, but I do feel dissent is nothing new and no religion is immune to it.

What about modern Greece? I’ve never been there but what is Greece like today culturally since it is one of the most Orthodox countries?
Another thing I noticed is I aside from pro-life issues the Patriarchs overseas don’t seem to comment as much about American or western politics, though that could have more to do with the Pope being a head of state…?

I think the word Modernism may have also been stretched beyond its original meaning and slightly overused? The same with the American context conservative/liberal. It drives me crazy when people try to categorize every culture they observe on these western dichotomies.

If we were to discover life on other galaxies I can just picture Western bloggers and pundits trying to figure out how conservative or liberal they are, or how traditionalist or modernist they are.

 

[Nine_Two]

Someone said that as many as 25% of people are outright loons. If that is true, the small the population you draw from, the less loons you have.

I’m pretty sure that was an episode of Southpark.

 

[ralphinal]

I’m pretty sure that was an episode of Southpark.

That doesn’t make it less true (but I am busted on that)

 

[SingleMomMonica]

IF the pope knocked on the door, there would be no New Age **** to be found.

Many times, Rome is aware of the problems, but when they check in, the problems are not there.

Now this just isn’t true.

What about the Papal Mass which was approved by the Pope in advance in Australia with Pope John Paul II - where they even had “smoking ceremonies” added to the Mass among other abuses of the Mass? I read the entire article, but can only find part of it on-line: jstor.org/pss/27662976

youtube.com/watch?v=jN9N0FYKJTA youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPkYwIOCRM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

All I can say after watching these Catholic Liturgical abuses, that I’ve heard rumors of for decades, is “WOW”! I’m in complete and total shock!

The worst I’d personally witnessed is Catholic Churches without the Tabernacle in the main part of the Church and a Wiccan giving a speach in lieu of a priest giving a homily since he was ‘going on vacation tomorrow’, he let her speak. She was asking for money for something and a 2nd collection was held for her cause.

 

[brigantine]

Now this just isn’t true.

What about the Papal Mass which was approved by the Pope in advance in Australia with Pope John Paul II - where they even had “smoking ceremonies” added to the Mass among other abuses of the Mass? I read the entire article, but can only find part of it on-line: jstor.org/pss/27662976

youtube.com/watch?v=jN9N0FYKJTA youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPkYwIOCRM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

All I can say after watching these Catholic Liturgical abuses, that I’ve heard rumors of for decades, is “WOW”! I’m in complete and total shock!

The worst I’d personally witnessed is Catholic Churches without the Tabernacle in the main part of the Church and a Wiccan giving a speach in lieu of a priest giving a homily since he was ‘going on vacation tomorrow’, he let her speak. She was asking for money for something and a 2nd collection was held for her cause.

I’ve herd of a lot of these abuses but never witnessed them myself. I think they happened but not in the numbers they have been made out to. The ones that do happen need to be addressed immediately and severely. If some of the Nuns and Priests that speak out publicly against the Church were immediately removed from the Church word would get out and many future abuses would be prevented.

I left the Catholic Church because I perceived nothing being done by the Bishops and Pope John Paul II. I just could not understand, and still do not, why nothing was being done. I remember watching news from upstate NY that a Church was allowing a women to “help” the Priest during the service. They were also blessing gay marriage and nothing was done to stop them. Finally in the end the Priest ordained the women. Not sure what happened after that because I left the CC for the OC. It was a said frustrating time for myself and my family.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

I’ve herd of a lot of these abuses but never witnessed them myself. I think they happened but not in the numbers they have been made out to. The ones that do happen need to be addressed immediately and severely. If some of the Nuns and Priests that speak out publicly against the Church were immediately removed from the Church word would get out and many future abuses would be prevented.

I left the Catholic Church because I perceived nothing being done by the Bishops and Pope John Paul II. I just could not understand, and still do not, why nothing was being done. I remember watching news from upstate NY that a Church was allowing a women to “help” the Priest during the service. They were also blessing gay marriage and nothing was done to stop them. Finally in the end the Priest ordained the women. Not sure what happened after that because I left the CC for the OC. It was a said frustrating time for myself and my family.

Yeah, I was totally shocked myself when I watched the videos that I posted the two links for above! Like you, I’d always heard out it, but never saw with my own eyes until this afternoon. My Mormon co-worker came over and even she was horrified by the images - the bishops dancing with clowns at Mass, the teenage girls with dresses with slits so high that you actually see one of the girl’s upper most part of her thigh and butt cheek, the animal costumes - seemed more like a Native American ritual - so bizzarre. What bothered me the most was that in several of these pictures, it is clear that the Bishops were not only there, but participating actively in the maddness!!! But then, Pope John Paul II in the January Papal Mass in Australia participated in these types of crazy things also though. From the top down…? Yikes, the Catholic Church really needs to get it together liturgically. I just wonder if it’s not to late?

I came to Orthodoxy because of the Theology and Church History, but also see that Liturgically, they are acurate. This type of thing could never and would never occur in an Orthodox Parish, let alone with the permission and participation of a Bishop!

ADT is Home Security & Orthodoxy is Spiritual Security! The Orthodox Church is Spiritually Safe.

 

[manualman]

In a way, this is kind of like wondering why folks in rural China aren’t overconsuming Big Macs and sugary soda… It’s a whole other culture!

The West is particularly vulnerable to modernism because Modernism was born in the peculiarities of Western culture. It doesn’t necessarily have the same seductive appeal to other cultures.

But let’s not mistake the definition of “modernism” for the definition of “lukewarmness.” I’m not a heavily traveled person, but my limited contact with Greek and Russian Orthodox people tells me they have the same problems catholics do with lukewarmness and moral compromise.

Most of the Eastern Orthodox world has the same fatally low lifetime fertility rates that Western catholics do, which says to me that they are suffering the same widespread lack of faith and hope that we are.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

In a way, this is kind of like wondering why folks in rural China aren’t overconsuming Big Macs and sugary soda… It’s a whole other culture!

I ran into a man from China, he said they don’t like burgers because they’re too hard to eat with out their “sticks”.

The West is particularly vulnerable to modernism because Modernism was born in the peculiarities of Western culture. It doesn’t necessarily have the same seductive appeal to other cultures.

Western Politics and the like originated in Greece several millenia ago.

Most of the Eastern Orthodox world has the same fatally low lifetime fertility rates that Western catholics do, which says to me that they are suffering the same widespread lack of faith and hope that we are.

Low lifetime fertility rates are because of maintaining the Church Fasts - only about 50% of the year (or less depending on the Church year) is available for pro-creation acts between Orthodox Spouses and that is even further reduced due to the woman’s menses cycle, illness, travel and other ordinary things which may keep a couple apart sexually - plus not each and every sex act creates a child even when open to life. I know a very devote Orthodox couple who are now in their late 40’s and have only been blessed with 1 child who is now a teenager. I know devote Orthodox couple who have 9 children and they are only in their late 30’s - the wife confided to me that as a couple they are not able to keep the Church Fasts which has directly contributed to them have an average of 1 baby a year. They are striving to get better at keeping the Church’s teachings as they are feeling the negative physical, emotional and financial consequences of back to back to back to back, etc. pregnancies.

 

[Nine_Two]

In a way, this is kind of like wondering why folks in rural China aren’t overconsuming Big Macs and sugary soda… It’s a whole other culture!

It’s a different culture within the Church yes, but don’t think that someone going to an Orthodox Church in North America or Western Europe is any less off the culture of that area.

The West is particularly vulnerable to modernism because Modernism was born in the peculiarities of Western culture. It doesn’t necessarily have the same seductive appeal to other cultures.

It may have been born here in the west, but “Westernization” always carries it into other cultures, this is one of the major reasons many cultures do not like the concept of Westernization.

But let’s not mistake the definition of “modernism” for the definition of “lukewarmness.” I’m not a heavily traveled person, but my limited contact with Greek and Russian Orthodox people tells me they have the same problems catholics do with lukewarmness and moral compromise.

Yep. You only need to look at the politicians who claim to belong to either one to see lukewarmness is an issue. The leader of one of the major political parties here identifies as “Russian Orthodox” he also identifies as “not a church person”, two identities quite at large with each other, which can only be bridged by that lukewarmness.

Most of the Eastern Orthodox world has the same fatally low lifetime fertility rates that Western catholics do, which says to me that they are suffering the same widespread lack of faith and hope that we are.

Sadly most of the Orthodox world is still recovering from Communism, something which grew out of a Modernist ideology, or are a small minority wherever they are. The only exception to this is possibly Greece, a country which has been politically identified with the West for so long that many parts of Western Culture, good and bad, have seeped in.

 

[brigantine]

I’m really do not think the fast has much of an effect on the low birth rates in Orthodox countries. I mean Greece and Russia have very low birth rates and very low Church attendance. I doubt people are not showing up for Church and still following the fasting rules by the letter.

The Orthodox have some of the same issues the Catholics have when it comes to Church attendance. I remember each Pascha our Church having double the amount of people there as would be on a normal Sunday.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Sadly most of the Orthodox world is still recovering from Communism,

This is true for Russian Orthodox and maybe some other Eastern European Orthodox Christians. But the rest of the Orthodox world was largely unaffected by Communism - like the Orthodox Churches in Greece, in Turkey, in Finland, in the U.S. and the Americas, in Japan, in Australia and in Africa.

With the 20 million Orthodox Christians who were killed in Russia in the 20th century, I wonder how long it will take to replenish their numbers? It’s not helping that Catholic & Protestant missionaries are going into Russian territories and converting people away from Orthodoxy. It’s a real mess over there now.

 

[ralphinal]

I will need more time to study those you tube videos. I will point out that the clown mass shown in one was at an Episcopalian service, not a Catholic one. Further, we need the whole article on the Pope’s mass to really see what was done incorrectly.

But, if you cannot know Jesus except as a member of an Orthodox Church, by all means be Orthodox. Just don’t expect me to give up my relationship with Jesus in the same way. I know him quite well as a Catholic

 

[Nine_Two]

This is true for Russian Orthodox and maybe some other Eastern European Orthodox Christians. But the rest of the Orthodox world was largely unaffected by Communism - like the Orthodox Churches in Greece, in Turkey, in Finland, in the U.S. and the Americas, in Japan, in Australia and in Africa.

Sadly I have to disagree with you. The rise of communism is at the heart of the juristictional issues we face in North America, and the Japanese Orthodox Church was at the time an integrated part of the Russian Orthodox Church, only being granted autonomy in 1970. I’m not sure about Finland, but considering it is a branch of the Russian Church as well, I can’t imagine it did much better. You are quite correct that Greece, and Turkey were largely unaffected, though I have no idea about Africa to argue one way or another, my point still stands that the rise of Communism has affected most of the Orthodox world. The EP and the Church of Greece together make up a small minority.

With the 20 million Orthodox Christians who were killed in Russia in the 20th century, I wonder how long it will take to replenish their numbers? It’s not helping that Catholic & Protestant missionaries are going into Russian territories and converting people away from Orthodoxy. It’s a real mess over there now.

It’s more the people who committed apostacy for personal advancement that I would worry about having to replenish, not so much those who have fallen asleep.

 

[SingleMomMonica]

Just don’t expect me to give up my relationship with Jesus

No one asked you too.