Modernism in the Orthodox Church

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crazzeto said:
Not so bold a claim if you have google

orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/Modernism.pdf

Looks like the Orthodox Church is well aware of, well affected by and currently combating modernism. Just like every other Church on the planet. But hey, at least y’all are better off than the Protestants.
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I have to laugh at this, if just a wee bit.

The title of the paper is …
ORTHODOX TRADITION AND MODERNISM

It contrasts traditional Orthodox discipline with attempts to “update” or “modernize”. The author cites such examples as Orthodox parishes in Vienna introducing four part harmony! This is really a concern over conservative vs liberal in Orthodox praxis.

This is not the kind of thing Pius X, bishop of Rome, was railing about in his condemnation of modernism. He was concerned with new thoughts in Biblical exegesis and relativatism/indifferentism of theology. Far and away not applicable to Holy Orthodoxy.

To Orthodox, the healthy Latin Catholic church (without the heresy of ‘Modernism’ as defined by the bishop of Rome) with it’s development of Doctrine (a la Cardinal Henry Newman) and it’s tweaking with liturgy and canons is modernistic, and it’s eastern Catholic affiliates are unfortunately affected by it. Holy Orthodoxy by contrast is traditionalistic by nature.

In this same article one comes across this:
The Orthodox always regarded the unchanging persistence of the Orthodox Church in Sacred Tradition as her boast. On the contrary, the heterodox—with exceptions, especially in recent times—regarded this persistence as a sign of decline, as a sign of deficiency in her inner life. In particular, the Protestants hurled the reproof that the Orthodox Church is “dead” and likened her to a “petrified mummy.”
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I have read the same, or at least similar complaints about Holy Orthodoxy written right here on CAF by Latin Catholics. Some have called it “stagnant”.

Also there is this comment by Latin Catholic theologian:
The Roman Catholic theologian Julius Tyciak writes: “For the Eastern Church Tradition is everything. She wants to be the Church of Tradition, the Church of the ancient times”
(The Nostalgia for Orthodoxy [Athens: “Zoe” Brotherhood, 1965], p. 73).
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Nicely put! 👍

Yes, that is the Orthodox church.

*O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Pascha like no other.
*Father Lev Gillet, monk of the eastern church
 
We Orthodox have our share of modernism. I haven’t read through the whole thread, so someone might have mentioned the laity’s (and some clergy) more modern ideas prevalent on the Orthodox Church, including pro-choice and gay marriage sympathies (there is actually a survey study about this over on the American Orthodox Institute website). People over the years more experienced in the matters of places like Russia note that abortion rates have not abated much since the fall of Communism, and (from my personal experience) Orthodox cultures in the USA can range from godly to disheartening to downright disgusting.

It’s just when in comes to strictly church issues, most people in Orthodoxy aren’t trying to make Tradition and Liturgy conform to their ideas, especially since alot of Orthodox ethnic groups fought in one way or another to preserve the faith. Call it tribalism or whatever, but, in these instances especially, trying to re-mold the Liturgy and the “status-quo” is akin to ancestral betrayal.
 
LJ(name removed by moderator)A said:
I think the word Modernism may have also been stretched beyond its original meaning and slightly overused? The same with the American context conservative/liberal. It drives me crazy when people try to categorize every culture they observe on these western dichotomies.
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This is my position as well. It is easy to lump every complaint we have about culture, of any place, and call it ‘Modernism’. It means different things to different people and not all of these are what was condemned by Pope Pius 100 years ago as the heresy.
manualman said:
In a way, this is kind of like wondering why folks in rural China aren’t overconsuming Big Macs and sugary soda… It’s a whole other culture!

The West is particularly vulnerable to modernism because Modernism was born in the peculiarities of Western culture. It doesn’t necessarily have the same seductive appeal to other cultures.

But let’s not mistake the definition of “modernism” for the definition of “lukewarmness.” I’m not a heavily traveled person, but my limited contact with Greek and Russian Orthodox people tells me they have the same problems catholics do with lukewarmness and moral compromise.

Most of the Eastern Orthodox world has the same fatally low lifetime fertility rates that Western catholics do, which says to me that they are suffering the same widespread lack of faith and hope that we are.
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This is a good post.

I think it is important to recognize that ‘Modernism’ is not the same thing as disinterest in religion, or even a lack of conviction. Non-churchgoers, whether in France, Portugal, Greece or Russia are not by definition “Modernists”. They are on that slippery slope of secular Humanism in the modern world, but that is not what Pope Pius was condemning.

High abortion rates, whether France, Russia or anywhere, is not Modernism. The churches still roundly condemn abortion. High abortion rates are more closely tied to low church attendance, which is a different sort of problem. Yes, this is an effect of the changing world culture, a ‘post-Christian’ culture.

Disinterest in religion does not count as Modernism. Modernism is a heresy of religion, a position theologians will take, not a lack of religion.

Agnosticism and Atheism, Consumerism, Materialism & Feminism are ideologies, but are not examples of Modernism.

Sloth, Pride, Lust, Greed and Avarice (as well as the Murder of one’s children) are sins, but in and of themselves they are not Modernism. Bad behavior inside and outside of the church has always been a problem… since even before the advent of Christ. These are certainly not unique to modern times.

Modernism is a theological problem. It undermines the dogmatic basis of the church.

BTW, McDonald’s is not very appetizing (to me, at least) here in China. 😃 (Most of it is not suitable for an Orthodox fast, either.)
SingleMomMonica said:
My Mormon co-worker came over and even she was horrified by the images - the bishops dancing with clowns at Mass, the teenage girls with dresses with slits so high that you actually see one of the girl’s upper most part of her thigh and butt cheek, the animal costumes - seemed more like a Native American ritual - so bizzarre. What bothered me the most was that in several of these pictures, it is clear that the Bishops were not only there, but participating actively in the maddness!!!
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Outside of the church, this is all bad taste.

Inside the church it bad liturgy, and I suppose (since liturgy and theology are interdependent disciplines) a symptom of the Modernistic tendency. It takes a certain mindset to even conceive of doing these things in church.
 
Hesychios said:
Outside of the church, this is all bad taste.

Inside the church it bad liturgy, and I suppose (since liturgy and theology are interdependent disciplines) a symptom of the Modernistic tendency. It takes a certain mindset to even conceive of doing these things in church.
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This is a very wise comment. I think this concept of inside church/outside church practices being different is more or less lost on many Christians, perhaps with good intentions but always with bad results.

If I have ever met a holy person, I may not have immediately noticed, because they carry the church in them in their everyday behavior and mindset in a way that is completely integrated with their life, whether inside of a physical church or not. But for the rest of us (myself definitely included), we are not so far along in our spiritual development and need to be reminded that Christ is in our midst, and behave according to this reality.

“Modernistic” mindsets lead to modernizing practices. Personally, I don’t think it is enough to try to stop by fiat something that is this far along (with regard to the RCC), at least not without a serious effort on the part of the laity and the clergy alike to acquire an orthodox mindset that will make clear why certain practices ought never be accepted to begin with. It is easy to point out obvious aberrations like “Clown Masses”, but many lesser deviations from liturgical norms do not attract nearly as much scorn because people do not have a sense that they’re not to be accepted.
 
Modernism in Orthodoxy consists in using the New Calendar for fixed feasts, according to some people.
 
brigantine said:
The Orthodox have some of the same issues the Catholics have when it comes to Church attendance.
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I think that the only place you are going to see great attendance, is the mega non-denominational churches with theater seats, light shows, and rock bands.
 
Hesychios said:
BTW, McDonald’s is not very appetizing (to me, at least) here in China. 😃 (Most of it is not suitable for an Orthodox fast, either.)
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Is there a chance of returning to America any time soon? It must be rather lonely there. 😦
 
Hesychios,

When hierarchs turn a “blind” eye, or reduce Orthodox morality to “personal choice”, either publicly or privately, yes, I would call this modernism. More experienced Orthodox than me have witnessed this.

The “which calendar” question seems like a yapping puppy compared to how Orthodox people engage the culture in some places. When feminism, materialism, and commercialism creep up into the highest ranks of Orthodoxy, I don’t understand how this isn’t modernism. Is it just because technically they still have their theology right?
 
My interweb search skills must be off right now. It has taken me forever to find out where that is and who they are. The puppet video is now seen for what it is.

This footage was shot at the Call To ACtion group’s 2008 West Coast Conference. For those who do not know, Call To Action is a group that has no business in the Catholic Church. They want women priests, homosexual marriage, and the Church to be a true democracy in everything, including theology. They couldn’t care less about what Rome says about anything. Basically, as far as this Catholic is concerned, the entire group of people in the room, including the priest, are heretics.
 
ralphinal said:
For those who do not know, Call To Action is a group that has no business in the Catholic Church. They want women priests, homosexual marriage, and the Church to be a true democracy in everything, including theology. They couldn’t care less about what Rome says about anything. Basically, as far as this Catholic is concerned, the entire group of people in the room, including the priest, are heretics.
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In your opinion they have no business in the Catholic Church & they are heretics & yet the Catholic Church accepts them - they continue to be a part of the Catholic Church, not excommunicated by the local Bishop nor the Vatican. The Catholic Church continues to allow them by embrassing them, is embrassing modernism from the top down.

This type of moderism has never been & will never be found within the Orthodox Church. Bishops have no problem in removing a rogue priest (if there is one). In Orthodoxy the “moderism” seen is celebrating Christmas off the Gregorian Calendar instead of the Julian Calendar to date the 25th of December, not messing with the Divine Liturgy.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
In your opinion they have no business in the Catholic Church & they are heretics & yet the Catholic Church accepts them - they continue to be a part of the Catholic Church, not excommunicated by the local Bishop nor the Vatican. The Catholic Church continues to allow them by embrassing them, is embrassing modernism from the top down.

This type of moderism has never been & will never be found within the Orthodox Church. Bishops have no problem in removing a rogue priest (if there is one). In Orthodoxy the “moderism” seen is celebrating Christmas off the Gregorian Calendar instead of the Julian Calendar to date the 25th of December, not messing with the Divine Liturgy.
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They are not in my diocese and my local bishop has removed priests who profess heretical views. AS far as I am concerned, none of those issues affect me. We have no Catholic pro-abortion politicians in Alabama, either.
 
Hi Mickey,

Sorry, I did not read this thread for a long time.
Mickey said:
Is there a chance of returning to America any time soon? It must be rather lonely there. 😦
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No, it’s OK. I should be here for a year. I am comfortable, the food is good and the natives are very friendly.

My language skills are still poor, but improving. I am hoping to make some business contacts and move forward with that, then return to the USA.

Unfortunately, Christianity is largely missing from this society. The Latin Catholic church collapsed in this area, from a diocese to a single parish, and that one is in the Patriotic Association. The parishioners are very devout.

The nearest Orthodox parish is in Korea! The Orthodox priesthood was completely eliminated in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.
*
Michael*
 
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