modernist catholicism...

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

So according to St. Pope Pius X, a modernist is basically one who denies the supernatural aspects of the Church…

So why have self described Traditional Catholics been calling supporters of Vatican II “Modernist Catholics” then…?

I think it is a misconception. I was telling you to be careful about referring to yourself as a “modernist” since some may confuse you for a heretic that goes against St. Pope Pius X. Although technically wasn’t Vatican II trying to get theChurch to be more “modern”? It may be the same names but different meanings.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[PatrickSebast]

So according to St. Pope Pius X, a modernist is basically one who denies the supernatural aspects of the Church…

So why have self described Traditional Catholics been calling supporters of Vatican II “Modernist Catholics” then…?

“Modernist” is really a very generic term. Maybe there is some official catholic definition, of it but it has been used to mean so many things and to associate to so many groups that it is hard to really come to an agreed upon definition.

For instance modernist is the term used to refer to the northern opposition to southern fundamentalism that made up a majority of the US political landscape in the early 1900s. In that sense most US Catholics would be modernists. However I doubt that is what is being referred to in this thread.

 

[Student09]

I absolutely think there should be NO Latin Masses. I’ve been to several, in fact.

(I usually call them OF Latin Masses, though.)

LOL. I got it.

TEPO, your definitions of both modernist and traditionalist are off. For one thing, it is not accurate to say that traditionalists only attend Latin Masses. Some traditionalists do, others do not due to limited access or because they want to attend Mass sometimes with family members who attend the OF Mass, or for other reasons.

Also, you seem to be confusing “modernist” with “modern”??

 

[TEPO]

It was a pun on NO as an often-seen abbreviation for Novus Ordo. In other words, I think there should N.O. Latin Masses – or, as I would usually call them, OF (Ordinary Form) Latin Masses.

Well, that went right over my head… :doh2:

Let me get this straight… Latin Mass = tridentine Mass = (EF) Extraordinary Mass

                                   Normal Mass = (OF) Ordinary Form Mass = Norvus Ordo

So what kind of Mass do you like…?

 

[TEPO]

LOL. I got it.

TEPO, your definitions of both modernist and traditionalist are off. For one thing, it is not accurate to say that traditionalists only attend Latin Masses. Some traditionalists do, others do not due to limited access or because they want to attend Mass sometimes with family members who attend the OF Mass, or for other reasons.

Also, you seem to be confusing “modernist” with “modern”??

I know, I’m a little behind in my knowledge on things, and I know Mark likes to mess with me alot… I’m just trying to get to the bottom of things.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Novus Ordo Masses can be said in Latin, there are more differences in the Masses thanm just the languages spoken. I must suggest that you really look into things before labelling yourself Modernist or Traditional. I don’t call my self traditional, but I am rather right of center on the Political-Religious spectrum. Actually, I’d say I am pretty traditional since I’m not a big fan of Vatican II, I seem to relate more with Catholics from 100+ years ago than Catholics now. odd isn’t it…

~ Pius :knight1:

By the way, God Rest Blessed Pope Pius IX (my favorite Pope and man I hold most of my devotion, with the exeption of God, Mary and a few other Saints.)

 

[TEPO]

Novus Ordo Masses can be said in Latin, there are more differences in the Masses thanm just the languages spoken.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I must suggest that you really **look into things before labelling yourself Modernist **or Traditional. I don’t call my self traditional, but I am rather right of center on the Political-Religious spectrum. Actually, I’d say I am pretty traditional since I’m not a big fan of Vatican II, I seem to relate more with Catholics from 100+ years ago than Catholics now. odd isn’t it…

You’re right, but I need to get a definition for the “modernist” or “modern” Catholic that I’ve been hearing about, which I’ve taken on as my “screen” religion…

I really don’t think that there exists such a Catholic. I think there is an artificial division… A misunderstanding.

I think every Catholic is at his heart a traditional Catholic.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

You’re right, but I need to get a definition for the “modernist” or “modern” Catholic that I’ve been hearing about, which I’ve taken on as my “screen” religion…

I really don’t think that there exists such a Catholic. I think there is an artificial division… A misunderstanding.

I think every Catholic is at his heart a traditional Catholic.

Well, even some “modern”/liberal Catholics compared to some of the Protestants look like ruler wielding nuns. I like to go by the Coservative/Liberal Catholic spectrum rather than the Modern/Traditional spectrum. A “Liberal Catholic” sounds better than a Modernist Catholic In my opinion.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[Student09]

Well, even some “modern”/liberal Catholics compared to some of the Protestants look like ruler wielding nuns. I like to go by the Coservative/Liberal Catholic spectrum rather than the Modern/Traditional spectrum. A “Liberal Catholic” sounds better than a Modernist Catholic In my opinion.

Ack. “Liberal” and “conservative” have political connotations that do not really apply to the Catholic Church. That just confuses the issue more.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Ack. “Liberal” and “conservative” have political connotations that do not really apply to the Catholic Church. That just confuses the issue more.

I would rather be confused with a Republican than with SSPX.

Modernist and Traditionalist also have negative connotations. Either way, Liberal and Conservative seem to fit this discussion better as it really isn’t shunned by the church to be Liberal as it is to be modernst, same goes for Conservatives and Sedevacantists.

~ Pius :knight1:

Plus, most people that are “religiously” Conservative also are usually Politically Conservative as well.

 

[Student09]

This is from New Advent/Catholic Encyclopedia:

The general idea of modernism may be best expressed in the words of Abbate Cavallanti, though even here there is a little vagueness: “Modernism is modern in a false sense of the word; it is a morbid state of conscience among Catholics, and especially young Catholics, that professes manifold ideals, opinions, and tendencies. From time to time these tendencies work out into systems, that are to renew the basis and superstructure of society, politics, philosophy, theology, of the Church herself and of the Christian religion”. A remodelling, a renewal according to the ideas of the twentieth century — such is the longing that possesses the modernists. “The avowed modernists”, says M. Loisy, “form a fairly definite group of thinking men united in the common desire to adapt Catholicism to the intellectual, moral and social needs of today” (op. cit., p. 13). “Our religious attitude”, as “Il programma dei modernisti” states (p. 5, note l), “is ruled by the single wish to be one with Christians and Catholics who live in harmony with the spirit of the age”. The spirit of this plan of reform may be summarized under the following heads:

* A spirit of complete emancipation, tending to weaken ecclesiastical authority; the emancipation of science, which must traverse every field of investigation without fear of conflict with the Church; the emancipation of the State, which should never be hampered by religious authority; the emancipation of the private conscience whose inspirations must not be overridden by papal definitions or anathemas; the emancipation of the universal conscience, with which the Church should be ever in agreement;
* A spirit of movement and change, with an inclination to a sweeping form of evolution such as abhors anything fixed and stationary;
* A spirit of reconciliation among all men through the feelings of the heart. Many and varied also are the modernist dreams of an understanding between the different Christian religions, nay, even between religion and a species of atheism, and all on a basis of agreement that must be superior to mere doctrinal differences.

Such are the fundamental tendencies. As such, they seek to explain, justify, and strengthen themselves in an error, to which therefore one might give the name of “essential” modernism. What is this error? It is nothing less than the perversion of dogma. Manifold are the degrees and shades of modernist doctrine on the question of our relations with God. But no real modernist keeps the Catholic notions of dogma intact.

 

[Student09]

Plus, most people that are “religiously” Conservative also are usually Politically Conservative as well.

Politically these terms refer to a wide range of issues so that is not strictly true, especially as the bounds of “liberal” and “conservative” vary from country to country. It’s just a lot more complicated. Is someone who is pro-life and also in favor of health care of everyone and government regulation of corporations a conservative or liberal? Either way it has nothing to do with whether they are traditional or modernist or something else in their Catholic belief.

We shouldn’t confuse the meanings of words to suit our personal preferences.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

Politically these terms refer to a wide range of things so that is not strictly true, especially as the bounds of “liberal” and “conservative” vary from country to country. It’s just a lot more complicated.

We shouldn’t confuse the meanings of words to suit our personal preferences.

I didn’t take in the seperation of countries into mind. I am an American, most Religious Conservatives also happen to be Conservative on the Religious spectrum. I find it easier and simpler than Modernism. Traditionalism is pretty straightforward. I will continue to refer to myself as a Consevative. I really don’t see what is so complicated about being liberal or Conservative in the Religious sense.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[TEPO]

I didn’t take in the seperation of countries into mind. I am an American, most Religious Conservatives also happen to be Conservative on the Religious spectrum. I find it easier and simpler than Modernism. Traditionalism is pretty straightforward. I will continue to refer to myself as a Consevative. I really don’t see what is so complicated about being liberal or Conservative in the Religious sense.

~ Pius :knight1:

The term I’ve run accross for catholics who deny the supernatural aspects of the Church are “Progressives”…

Progressive Catholics often believe in things like contraception, female Priests, and the doubt of transubstantiation.

Progressive Catholics are worse than Cafeteria Catholics because they know what the Church teaches yet choose to wander astray, as Cafeteria Catholics are simply unknowledgeable of the truth and deny the Grace to learn it. Has less to do with Liturgy and more with teachings.

This is the way I understand it.

I also consider myself Conservative -as well as traditional, but I consider myself modern in the sense that I appreciate all the liturgies of the Mass. I don’t exclude anything.

 

[TEPO]

A progressive Catholic might also do something like criticize the centuries-old practice of Eucharistic Adoration.

These types of progressive Catholics must be the same that Pope Pius X warned us against…

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

The term I’ve run accross for catholics who deny the supernatural aspects of the Church are “Progressives”…

Progressive Catholics often believe in things like contraception, female Priests, and the doubt of transubstantiation.

Progressive Catholics are worse than Cafeteria Catholics because they know what the Church teaches yet choose to wander astray, as Cafeteria Catholics are simply unknowledgeable of the truth. Has less to do with Liturgy and more with teachings.

This is the way I understand it.

I also consider myself Conservative -as well as traditional, but I consider myself modern in the sense that I appreciate all the liturgies of the Mass. I don’t exclude anything.

I always called those people “Plastic Catholics” or Protestants. Afterall, they are technically protesting the Church. I call what you call Progressives, liberals. Although they both obviously mean the same, to an extant.

I highly reccomend you change your “screen religion” because there may be a misconception on what kind of Modern you mean.

~ Pius :knight1:

 

[TEPO]

I always called those people “Plastic Catholics” or Protestants. Afterall, they are technically protesting the Church. I call what you call Progressives, liberals. Although they both obviously mean the same, to an extant.

I highly reccomend you change your “screen religion” because there may be a misconception on what kind of Modern you mean.

~ Pius :knight1:

Good points… I’ll go back to my original —>Roman Catholic !

 

[ConstantineTG]

A modernist Catholic is someone who is not a Traditionalist Catholic… The traditioinalist Catholic opposes the OF and only attends Latin Mass.

How about me? I do not attend the Latin Mass, but the Liturgy I attend predates the Tridentine Mass by 1000 years and is in the vernacular. Am I a modernist?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would rather be confused with a Republican than with SSPX.

Modernist and Traditionalist also have negative connotations. Either way, Liberal and Conservative seem to fit this discussion better as it really isn’t shunned by the church to be Liberal as it is to be modernst, same goes for Conservatives and Sedevacantists.

~ Pius :knight1:

Plus, most people that are “religiously” Conservative also are usually Politically Conservative as well.

For me you’re either a Catholic in line with the Catholic Church or not. Modernists and traditionalists both can go outside the line where the Catholic Church is either by rejecting things the Church has taught or insisting on having your way with the Church.

 

[PacoG]

Politically these terms refer to a wide range of issues so that is not strictly true, especially as the bounds of “liberal” and “conservative” vary from country to country. It’s just a lot more complicated. Is someone who is pro-life and also in favor of health care of everyone and government regulation of corporations a conservative or liberal? Either way it has nothing to do with whether they are traditional or modernist or something else in their Catholic belief.

We shouldn’t confuse the meanings of words to suit our personal preferences.

I don’t know who said it. I know I heard it on EWTN.

There are two types of Catholics.

Orthodox/Orthoprax: Those who believe and practice rightly. They can love the OF Mass and dislike the EF, or vice versa. Prefer not to say or say the Rosary. They can be as liberal as the day is long or ultra-traditionalist as can be. However, if at the end of the day, the believe and practice as the Church says, they fall under this category.

Heterodox/Heteroprax: Those who believe and practice erroneously. They can love the EF Mass and dislike the OF, or vice versa. Prefer to say or not say the Rosary. They can be as liberal as the day is long or ultra-traditionalist as can be. However, if at the end of the day, the believe and practice as the Church preaches against, they fall under this category.

Liberal/Conservative are political nonesense terms that have no place in the Church.