Modernizing the Hail Mary

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Layman said:
“Hey God, it’s me, Layman” won’t do.
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Where has anyone suggested such a radical change to any prayer? The topic of the thread is “thee” and “thou” instead of “you.”

As stated earlier, I was not aware that the Hail Mary was written in Elizabethian English; how dare we change that.
 
mullenpm said:
Does anyone else object to changing the words of the Hail Mary.

When I watch the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy on EWTN each day I mute the opening prayers and recite them to myself.

I just strongly dislike changing the words of the Hail Mary from Thee and Thy to you and your. Why is this necessary?

Also, the Apostles’ Creed bears little resemblance to the prayer I was raised with and said my entire life - I cannot say this version. Father Joseph Mary in praying the ‘Rosary for Life’ broadcast on Saturday afternoon on EWTN says it correctly, in mho.

I love Mother Angelica and the Nuns saying their Rosary. Mother Angelica even says “Holy Ghost” instead of “Holy Spirit” at times.

Am I in the minority about this feeling or do other “older” Catholics feel the same.:confused:

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

But, the Hail Mary is also in Scripture; aren’t they the words of the Angel Gabriel and of Mary, herself. Why must they be changed?

And these are Marian priests who have done this.:sad_yes:

Another intrusion is the “International Rosary” broadcast after the Divine Mercy Chaplet wherein the young woman praying the three Hail Mary prayers at the beginning of the Rosary says – “pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death.”

:knight2: :amen:
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I honestly think instead of thee, thou, thy is good enough and you and your is a bit inclusive. Have you ever read the NAB’s version of the “Pater Noster”? It totally butchers it. The same with Psalm 23 (Psalm 22 in the Douay-Rheims). Inclusive language kills the scripture passage and can be down right heretical
 
Say the Latin version, even better!

“Ave Maria
Gratia plena
Dominus tecum
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus
Sancta Maria
Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Nunc et in hora mortis nostrae
Amen.”

Verily, a fine prayer and most pleasing to the ear.
 
Quite honestly, things like that use to iritate me, but they don’t anymore, my husband and I pray the Rosary together daily and I say…blessed art thou amongst women…
and he says
…blessed art thou among women. We still pray it together and have for years that way. I don’t even notice anymore and haven’t even thought of it until you asked about this.
We have prayed in a group setting many times and have heard it all. Thee, Thou, Amongst, among, me a sinner and for us sinners.
A convert even asked us one time after praying the Rosary in a group setting with us if they were praying it wrong by saying you instead of thou and we both said “No, its fine, its probably just however you learned it.”
I’m just happy we all pray the Rosary, however we do it.
 
When saying grace before a meal i would ,if alone would use me and i instead of us,then i was made aware of uninty,that it was not just me saying this prayer alone but i was in union with all catholics in this prayer no matter in this world or the next.🙂
 
fbl9 said:
When saying grace before a meal i would ,if alone would use me and i instead of us,then i was made aware of uninty,that it was not just me saying this prayer alone but i was in union with all catholics in this prayer no matter in this world or the next.🙂
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“Blesslordneesygifswirrbouchseevfrmybonnyroochrysolrmen.”

Where are these words you’re talking about? :confused:
 
It is my understanding that the Hail Mary is a private prayer, so those who alter the prayer when they are alone aren’t doing anything wrong. However, it is charitable and proper to go with the local custom when praying in a group, no?

That having been said, I went to a parish in my hometown who said the Rosary before Mass. They used the updated vernacular and I couldn’t follow along. I went right into “Thee, Thy, Thou, Amongst” Mode. 😊
 
Layman said:
“Respect and reverence is an attitude of the heart, not a matter of word choice.”

Wrong.

If I say, with a cheery smile, “Get knotted, DaveBJ” instead of “Good morning, DaveBJ” it doesn’t really matter what’s in my heart as far as you’re concerned, does it? Word choice is important.
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Apples and oranges. The difference between “Good morning” and “Get knotted” (whatever that means) isn’t even in the same universe with the difference between the Elizabethan 2nd-person singular and the modern English all-inclusive 2nd person. Anyway, I suspect if you said “Get knotted,” the smile on your face would not match what would be in your heart. So it’s still the attitude of the heart that matters.
“Bear in mind that if the original manuscripts containing the Our Father and the Hail Mary had just been discovered and were being translated for the first time …”
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But they’re not, are they?
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It doesn’t matter whether they are or aren’t. If I say “Hallowed be your name” or “the Lord is with you,” I’m saying exactly the same thing as the 16th-century English-speaking Catholics were saying when they said “Hallowed by thy name” and “the Lord is with thee.” The idea that the singular th** pronouns were somehow more reverent than the plural → all-inclusive y** pronouns is a human (read: non-binding) tradition that sprang up much later.
Let’s cut to the chase.
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Imagine you have two choices;
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1). You can go to a Novus Ordo mass with lay ministers of communion, communion in the hand, ladies in the sanctuary, vernacular language, the priest making up some of the words as he goes along, guitars and drums and **modernised prayers **(all allowed, currently)
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Not in the diocese that I live in.
or …
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  1. You can go to a strict traditional Latin Mass, with Gregorian chant and an organ playing.
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If you say you’d be quite comfortable with 1) then I don’t think we’re on the same wavelength.
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I’m not comfortable with guitars, and I’ve never seen drums being used (except on TV). I am very comfortable with Mass in the vernacular; after the earliest Masses were in the vernacular (Aramaic in the Holy Land; Latin in Rome) or in a koine language that everyone understood anyway (Greek). And I’ve already had a discussion about TLMs where the priest is totally inaudible.
But to return to your point:
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Just what is in the heart of someone who finds it necessary to modify ancient prayers?
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Given that there is no real change in meaning, there is no real modification. As for what’s in my heart, that’s between me and Him (and her, when I’m talking to her), which makes it really none of your knotting (your word) business 😃

DaveBj
 
Thomas Merton, a native French and English speaker, said that he found the most conducive language for him to pray in was Castillano (Official Spanish). After taking the time to learn how to speak and read in Castillano, I decided I knew enough to learn the whole rosary and know exactly what’s going on in there. Overall I say it really helped me put somethings together on what the prayer really says.

After taking the time to learn more Italian, I tried praying it in Italian and I found it a little clunky. Merton said he found it a little off as well. Italian is on the otherhand an absolutely perfectly designed language to communicate in. English not so really so.

So, what do I think of changing the words? The official Castillano version of the Hail Mary uses particular punctuation and the 2nd person informal. Why English uses the 2nd person formal is beyond me. I do prefer the formality of the English. Formality like that probably should be revived a bit.
 
  1. “Anyway, I suspect if you said “Get knotted,” the smile on your face would not match what would be in your heart. So it’s still the attitude of the heart that matters.”
You mean if someone insults you to your face the words don’t matter? That is just illogical.

e.g. A fellow happily goes around insulting people and they take no offense because ‘what’s in his heart is what matters’.(?)

If I meet the Queen of England and say 'Hi, Queen" she will be just as pleased as if I say to her “Good day, Madam”?

2) Also, if what’s in your heart is what matters, why pray at all?

**3.) You miss out if you modernise prayers. **

I’ve got reprints of a 1904 Little Office of the B.V.M., a 1931 copy of a basic TLM missal and the Douay-Rheims bible and they have greatly enriched my prayer life. I now believe I’m really doing Catholicism.

Modern prayers, Bible translations and the N.O. are colourless and diminished by comparison.

4.) Constant little changes over time can lead to total mutation.

If I thought we were heading to a ‘second springtime’ with all the changes post-Vat. II I would be very happy.

That I can now easily make a case in my mind for a Satanic assault on our worship from within the Church makes me sad.
 
Translations of Latin prayers are readily available. Missals had them as standard.

You already know the meaning of the most common prayers.

English, French, Spanish and Italian have Latin components.

Latin is a simple language by comparison to others, if you wish to go further and learn it.
 
I love foreign languages. Would one of you foreign language literate people post the Hail Mary in French and in Spanish. Thanks, so much.🙂
 
Layman said:
Say the Latin version, even better!

“Ave Maria
Gratia plena
Dominus tecum
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus
Sancta Maria
Mater Dei
Ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Nunc et in hora mortis nostrae
Amen.”

Verily, a fine prayer and most pleasing to the ear.
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I love the Latin Version. Latin such a beautiful language.
 
brigid12 said:
Me, too!!!
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I have had the desire to learn some Latin for quite some time. The Ave Maria, Pater Noster, Glory Be, Sanctus, Kyrie Eleison and the Agnus Dei are just a few examples of what I have learned in Latin
 
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