Modernizing the Hail Mary

[mullenpm]

Does anyone else object to changing the words of the Hail Mary.

When I watch the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy on EWTN each day I mute the opening prayers and recite them to myself.

I just strongly dislike changing the words of the Hail Mary from Thee and Thy to you and your. Why is this necessary?

Also, the Apostles’ Creed bears little resemblance to the prayer I was raised with and said my entire life - I cannot say this version. Father Joseph Mary in praying the ‘Rosary for Life’ broadcast on Saturday afternoon on EWTN says it correctly, in mho.

I love Mother Angelica and the Nuns saying their Rosary. Mother Angelica even says “Holy Ghost” instead of “Holy Spirit” at times.

Am I in the minority about this feeling or do other “older” Catholics feel the same.

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

But, the Hail Mary is also in Scripture; aren’t they the words of the Angel Gabriel and of Mary, herself. Why must they be changed?

And these are Marian priests who have done this.:sad_yes:

Another intrusion is the “International Rosary” broadcast after the Divine Mercy Chaplet wherein the young woman praying the three Hail Mary prayers at the beginning of the Rosary says – “pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death.”

:knight2:

 

[WhollyRoamin]

It’s not really a matter of theology, Faith or even due course to Our Lady. But since I’m used to saying thee and thy, it sounds weird to hear you and your. But it’s just a matter of taste. Really.

Learn it in Latin, and pray along that way.

 

[Wyatt]

I usually say the prayers the traditional way, with the “thees” and “thys” in it. However, when I’m praying the rosary by myself, I say “pray for me, a sinner” instead of “pray for us sinners” since I am praying by myself instead of with a group.

 

[Eucharisted]

Why do you worry over such petty things? Unless the person is completely changing the prayer to make it inclusive or neo-pagan, you shouldn’t worry how the Lord leads a soul in prayer.

 

[Genesis315]

However, when I’m praying the rosary by myself, I say “pray for me, a sinner” instead of “pray for us sinners” since I am praying by myself instead of with a group.

St. Peter Damian said even when we are praying alone we should still use the plural (we/us) in these prayers because while we may be physically alone, we are not spiritually alone–we are still praying in union with the whole Church throughout the world. He’s the only saint I’ve ever read comment on this one way or the other, but I personally thought it was good advice so I figured I’d share it.

 

[Dauphin]

I just say it in Latin.

 

[Eucharisted]

St. Peter Damian said even when we are praying alone we should still use the plural (we/us) in these prayers because while we may be physically alone, we are not spiritually alone–we are still praying in union with the whole Church throughout the world. He’s the only saint I’ve ever read comment on this one way or the other, but I personally thought it was good advice so I figured I’d share it.

Indeed! The Church holds sinners to her bosom, and when we pray “pray for us sinners,” we are surly asking Mary to pray for all the Church and all sinners throughout the world. And I’ve found it is beter to pray for many than a few, because it is easy for God to give more than less.

 

[jazzy_987]

I never realized that the Hail Mary was even changed… I always hear and say thee, thou, etc.

 

[Cristiano]

I just say it in Latin.

I think that sometime it would probably be better. In Italian they changed the translation of the word “ventris” from “ventre” (womb) to “seno” (breast). If you can go off the tangent in Italian, then why not in English.

 

[EasterJoy]

Part of the reason for this change is that the sense of “thee” and “thy” have changed.

If you know foreign languages, you know that many have a formal form and a familiar form of the pronouns: in German, Sie vs. Die, for instance. The familiar form of “you” and “your” in English used to be thou/thee and thy. This would be how monarchs would address each other, as kin. Likewise, members of a family would use thou/thee/thy Two people with a more formal relationship, like a monarch and a commoner, would use you and your, etc.

The problem is that the sense of this became reversed. People came to see “thee” and “thou” as formal terms, forms proper for addressing a monarch, not familiar forms of address.

Also, “thee” and “thou” are the forms used in the King James Version of the Bible, which is a Protestant translation. It is very much favored in literature circles, though, because of the poetry of the English used. The language is rendered beautifully. In current Catholic translations, though, “you” and “your” are used.

If the older way is what touches your heart, use that. But don’t fear for those who use the modern pronouns. It is OK.

(PS I cannot remember exactly where, but it seems to me that there is a passage in Shakespeare where an angry woman in conversation uses “you” and “your” forms in addressing a man who would formerly have been on thee/thou terms, while the man, trying to patch things up with her, keeps trying the “thee” and “thou” forms with her. Anyone know that one?)

 

[malphono]

I never have, nor never will, use the “you” form in that prayer. then again, I normally say it in either Syriac or Latin, so it doesn’t much affect me.

In French, the formal “you” was traditionally used (Je vous salue, Marie) until the post-conciliar “spirit” started its wild run. And then, voilà, it morphed into the familiar form (Je te salue). (I heard that once in public and my hair stood up!) As I understand it, though, the traditional form is still the most commonly used. Anyway, that’s what I’ve heard. Does anyone from Québec (or France) have a comment? I’d be interested to hear.

 

[jazzy_987]

In French, the formal “you” was traditionally used (Je vous salue, Marie) until the post-conciliar “spirit” started its wild run. And then, voilà, it morphed into the familiar form (Je te salue). (I heard that once in public and my hair stood up!) As I understand it, though, the traditional form is still the most commonly used. Anyway, that’s what I’ve heard. Does anyone from Québec (or France) have a comment? I’d be interested to hear.

I’m not from Quebec or France, but in both school (French class, 4 different schools) and the churches I visited in Quebec, Je vous salue, Marie… was always used. I haven’t ever heard Je te salue before. The Notre Pere I hear always uses the singular “you” although I heard that some people say it using the plural.

 

[DaveBj]

I use “you” when I’m praying it by myself and in English. If I’m in a group, I go along with the group. Nothing is changed, either way.

DaveBj

 

[Cristiano]

Interesting ,because in Italian they always used the “il Signore e’ con te” and not “il Signore e’ con voi” thus being consistent with the use of the more intimate you as described by EasterJoy.

In Italian you can address a person with “te” or “voi” where the first is singular and less formal while the latter is a derivative of the plural and more formal. I think that maybe it is the same with the use of “thou” and “you” where “you” was the pluralis maiestatis.

 

[malphono]

I’m not from Quebec or France, but in both school (French class, 4 different schools) and the churches I visited in Quebec, Je vous salue, Marie… was always used. I haven’t ever heard Je te salue before. The Notre Pere I hear always uses the singular “you” although I heard that some people say it using the plural.

Actually, the “vous” form in the Our Father is not actually the plural, but rather the formal, same as in the Hail Mary. That was the old way that I learned. Sadly, in that case the “updated” version seems to have taken over.

 

[malphono]

Interesting ,because in Italian they always used the “il Signore e’ con te” and not “il Signore e’ con voi” thus being consistent with the use of the more intimate you as described by EasterJoy.

In Italian you can address a person with “te” or “voi” where the first is singular and less formal while the latter is a derivative of the plural and more formal. I think that maybe it is the same with the use of “thou” and “you” where “you” was the pluralis maiestatis.

My Italian is rusty but I seem to think you’re right: the traditional form was always the singular te. As I recall, the Italian rules for familiar vs formal are much less strict than in French.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, the “vous” form in the Our Father is not actually the plural, but rather the formal, same as in the Hail Mary. That was the old way that I learned. Sadly, in that case the “updated” version seems to have taken over.

I think the use of the intimate form is consistent with Scripures, though.

With my own father, that I called him “Daddy” and approached him without fear did not mean I approached him without fear of displeasing him!

If that is your sense when you pray–both free of the fear of rejection and yet full of the fear of displeasing Heaven and of the just consequences that carries–I think the pronoun you choose is a moot point.

 

[Cristiano]

My Italian is rusty but I seem to think you’re right: the traditional form was always the singular te. As I recall, the Italian rules for familiar vs formal are much less strict than in French.

The formal rules were quite different and they developed in the middle ages on two different paths “lei” from the feminine of vostra eccelenza (your excellency) vs. “voi” from the plural. During the fascism the government tried to impose only the use of “voi” because they were pushing for the purity of the Italian language and the use of 'lei" was considered too Spanish

 

[IrishAm]

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

Actually, there are more than a few Christians – including Catholics – who say “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” rather than “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

 

[Cristiano]

Actually, there are more than a few Christians – including Catholics – who say “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” rather than “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Are you talking of “…e rimetti a noi i nostri debiti come noi li rimettiamo ai nostri debitori…” (Italian) and “…et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris…” (Latin)