Modernizing the Hail Mary

[Cristiano]

I think the use of the intimate form is consistent with Scripures, though.

With my own father, that I called him “Daddy” and approached him without fear did not mean I approached him without fear of displeasing him!

If that is your sense when you pray–both free of the fear of rejection and yet full of the fear of displeasing Heaven and of the just consequences that carries–I think the pronoun you choose is a moot point.

Is it possible that in French they used the “vous” because in France that was they way kids were raised to address their parents?

 

[malphono]

The formal rules were quite different and they developed in the middle ages on two different paths “lei” from the feminine of vostra eccelenza (your excellency) vs. “voi” from the plural. During the fascism the government tried to impose only the use of “voi” because they were pushing for the purity of the Italian language and the use of 'lei" was considered too Spanish

And “lei” survives … Mussolini tried (thankfully without success) to suppress the indiginous languages of Italy (Barese, Silciliano, Sardo, Piemontese, etc). That failure shows the will of the people against tyranny.

 

[malphono]

Is it possible that in French they used the “vous” because in France that was they way kids were raised to address their parents?

To my knowledge, normally in France (and, I believe, in Québec), the informal has traditionally been used within the family. So, a child addressing papa would say “tu” but when addressing the next-door neighbor always “vous.” I seem to recall, (but could be wrong about this) that even uncles and aunts were accorded the formal.

 

[Cristiano]

And “lei” survives … Mussolini tried (thankfully without success) to suppress the indiginous languages of Italy (Barese, Silciliano, Sardo, Piemontese, etc). That failure shows the will of the people against tyranny.

I am quite bad with Latin, but I would like to find more information on the use of allocutions in Latin. Maybe they did not use it in Latin because the used the vocative.

I just looked at the definition of allocution in the Webster and it is different from the Italian one.
In English is : a formal speech ; especially : an authoritative or hortatory address.
In Italian it is a linguistic reference for the speaker to address (to call for the attention of) a listener.

 

[Frosty]

In French, the formal “you” was traditionally used (Je vous salue, Marie) until the post-conciliar “spirit” started its wild run. And then, voilà, it morphed into the familiar form (Je te salue). (I heard that once in public and my hair stood up!) As I understand it, though, the traditional form is still the most commonly used. Anyway, that’s what I’ve heard. Does anyone from Québec (or France) have a comment? I’d be interested to hear.

During a month in Paris last fall, I often stopped at Ste. Sulpice for the Rosary in the late afternoon. It was always said with the traditional “Je vous salue, Marie”. There ia also a French speaking church at the end of my block here at home. They likewise use “vous”.

 

[latinmasslover]

… the young woman praying the three Hail Mary prayers at the beginning of the Rosary says – “pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death.”

:ehh: Ridiculous.

 

[malphono]

During a month in Paris last fall, I often stopped at Ste. Sulpice for the Rosary in the late afternoon. It was always said with the traditional “Je vous salue, Marie”. There ia also a French speaking church at the end of my block here at home. They likewise use “vous”.

Thanks. It’s nice to hear that tradition survives.

 

[malphono]

I am quite bad with Latin, but I would like to find more information on the use of allocutions in Latin. Maybe they did not use it in Latin because the used the vocative.

I just looked at the definition of allocution in the Webster and it is different from the Italian one.
In English is : a formal speech ; especially : an authoritative or hortatory address.
In Italian it is a linguistic reference for the speaker to address (to call for the attention of) a listener.

Cool, but I’m not sure what an allocution has to do with the matter.

 

[narrowpath]

I prefer the Thee and Thou version.

But then, i usually pray it in Latin…

 

[bengland]

(PS I cannot remember exactly where, but it seems to me that there is a passage in Shakespeare where an angry woman in conversation uses “you” and “your” forms in addressing a man who would formerly have been on thee/thou terms, while the man, trying to patch things up with her, keeps trying the “thee” and “thou” forms with her. Anyone know that one?)

I don’t recall that but there is the trial of Sir Walter Raleigh - “Thou Viper! I thou thee, thou traitor.” Thou was an insult when he should have been addressed in the formal you. I also agree that there is nothing disrespectful in updating the language here, and the original thees and thous were not meant as terms elevating God.

That said, thee, thou and thine were beat into my head as a child and there they shall remain, only to emerge upon the recitation of certain memorized prayers. I prefer them because that’s how I learned them and that’s the only reason. If it ever becomes a problem there’s always Latin, but Latin is a dead language, and English is not.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Thanks. It’s nice to hear that tradition survives.

It seems to vary. Here, I’ve heard both the use of “tu” and “vous” in praying the Our Father and the Hail Mary; some are upset to hear Our Blessed Mother referred to as “Tu” rather than “Vous”. What seems even more inconsistent, is that the same ones who prefer using “vous” with Our Blessed Mother, will use “tu” ( literally “ton” and “ta” for “your” ) in the Our Father.

Sometimes the modifications really are overdone. In a more recent french version of the Hail Mary, here, the word sein has been substituted for the word entrailles - both of which can mean “womb”, because some think the modern day more-encompassing definition of entrailles renders the earlier understanding of it automatically archaic.

One variation which seems to have gained some real estate here is rather than the regular…

   "...et Jésus, le fruit de tes (or *vos*) entrailles est bénit."      -translated
   "...and Jesus, the fruit of your womb is blessed." ... some will say:

   "...et Jésus ton enfant est bénit."       - translated
   "...and Jesus, your child is blessed."

Personally, on that one, I feel the faith is expressed more clearly when Jesus is called the “fruit of Mary’s womb” as opposed to simply her “child”.

Sometimes the only alternative is to try and go beyond distractions when praying together. At my english-speaking home parish, one dear person who joins us in an after- Mass Rosary prays her Hail Mary’s this way, consistently : “Blessed **are you **among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.”

(… a little wrinkle - Yes; but not a reason to stop the Rosary )

 

[I_Believe]

Aw heck, all this bickering is a waste of time.

I mean, if we can keep saying “for all” instead of “for many”, then what’s the big deal over how we say all of those other prayers.

And since we can’t agree amongst ourselves, let’s bring in an neutral party, say a commitee of Protestants and Jews… wait, they don’t get along either.

Ok, it’s got to be a catholic group. Let’s see. Ah, Call To Action ! Perfect ! They are hip to the changing times. They love everyone, and respect all views and lifestyles.

Let them sort it all out and straighten out this mess. Let’s pray for the day when every Catholic receives a tee shirt at his/her/shim’s Confirmation the reads "It’s All Good ! "

 

[malphono]

It seems to vary. Here, I’ve heard both the use of “tu” and “vous” in praying the Our Father and the Hail Mary; some are upset to hear Our Blessed Mother referred to as “Tu” rather than “Vous”. What seems even more inconsistent, is that the same ones who prefer using “vous” with Our Blessed Mother, will use “tu” ( literally “ton” and “ta” for “your” ) in the Our Father.

Sometimes the modifications really are overdone. In a more recent french version of the Hail Mary, here, the word sein has been substituted for the word entrailles - both of which can mean “womb”, because some think the modern day more-encompassing definition of entrailles renders the earlier understanding of it automatically archaic.

One variation which seems to have gained some real estate here is rather than the regular…

   "...et Jésus, le fruit de tes (or *vos*) entrailles est bénit."      -translated
   "...and Jesus, the fruit of your womb is blessed." ... some will say:

   "...et Jésus ton enfant est bénit."       - translated
   "...and Jesus, your child is blessed."

Personally, on that one, I feel the faith is expressed more clearly when Jesus is called the “fruit of Mary’s womb” as opposed to simply her “child”.

That’s a twist that I had not heard before and I’d rather not have to deal with it again. I suppose “Jésus ton enfant est bénit” is clear, but “Jésus, le fruit de vos entrailles est bénit” is equally (if not more) so. Besides, it’s the way Ste Thérèse de Lisiuex said it, and that’s good enough for me.

Maybe I’m just “old fashioned” (in English, French, Latin, Syriac, or whatever) but I prefer it the traditional way. Changing prayers because of some perceived changed in vernacular usage is merely change for the sake of change, and that is a principle I do not, never have, and never will, agree with.

 

[brigid12]

Does anyone else object to changing the words of the Hail Mary.

When I watch the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy on EWTN each day I mute the opening prayers and recite them to myself.

I just strongly dislike changing the words of the Hail Mary from Thee and Thy to you and your. Why is this necessary?

Also, the Apostles’ Creed bears little resemblance to the prayer I was raised with and said my entire life - I cannot say this version. Father Joseph Mary in praying the ‘Rosary for Life’ broadcast on Saturday afternoon on EWTN says it correctly, in mho.

I love Mother Angelica and the Nuns saying their Rosary. Mother Angelica even says “Holy Ghost” instead of “Holy Spirit” at times.

Am I in the minority about this feeling or do other “older” Catholics feel the same.

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

But, the Hail Mary is also in Scripture; aren’t they the words of the Angel Gabriel and of Mary, herself. Why must they be changed?

And these are Marian priests who have done this.:sad_yes:

Another intrusion is the “International Rosary” broadcast after the Divine Mercy Chaplet wherein the young woman praying the three Hail Mary prayers at the beginning of the Rosary says – “pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death.”

:knight2:

:sad_yes: :sad_yes: I know it just shows that I’m an old fuddy-duddy, but yup.

 

[Lujack]

If it ever becomes a problem there’s always Latin, but Latin is a dead language, and English is not.

Technically, Latin is not entirely dead because new words are still being added to it (thanks to the Vatican). Just a bit of trivia.

It is extinct (as there are no native speakers), but not dead. At least, that’s what my English professor told be the distinction was.

 

[NeedImprovement]

That’s a twist that I had not heard before and I’d rather not have to deal with it again. I suppose “Jésus ton enfant est bénit” is clear, but “Jésus, le fruit de vos entrailles est bénit” is equally (if not more) so. Besides, it’s the way Ste Thérèse de Lisiuex said it, and that’s good enough for me.

Maybe I’m just “old fashioned” (in English, French, Latin, Syriac, or whatever) but I prefer it the traditional way. Changing prayers because of some perceived changed in vernacular usage is merely change for the sake of change, and that is a principle I do not, never have, and never will, agree with.

One reason I thought it expressed the faith more clearly is because Jesus is correctly called the child of St. Joseph although we profess it as not being biologically so. I believe mentioning the womb of Our Blessed Mother in the Hail Mary honors God the Holy Spirit a little more.

In fact, God recited the first Hail Mary. St. Gabriel is the messenger who brought to Mary the words God Himself charged the anchangel to say. Then we are told that Mary’s cousin Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said, “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb…”

I figure if it’s good enough for God to say it that way, hey … …

 

[Cluny]

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

You’re right. Jesus spoke Tudor English, didn’t He?

 

[weepixie71]

i feel uncomfortable about it also. but it stems from my fear of a little change here a little change there and next thing you know it is one more tradition lost to the modern way of doing things.

i know i shouldnt be this way but i am what i am.

 

[NeedImprovement]

i feel uncomfortable about it also. but it stems from my fear of a little change here a little change there and next thing you know it is one more tradition lost to the modern way of doing things.

i know i shouldnt be this way but i am what i am.

Kind of like plastic surgeons who, while trying to give prayer a *modern facelift *are running the risk of relegating the prayer all the way into the witness protection program with a completely different identity …?

 

[porthos11]

Does anyone else object to changing the words of the Hail Mary.

When I watch the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy on EWTN each day I mute the opening prayers and recite them to myself.

I just strongly dislike changing the words of the Hail Mary from Thee and Thy to you and your. Why is this necessary?

Also, the Apostles’ Creed bears little resemblance to the prayer I was raised with and said my entire life - I cannot say this version. Father Joseph Mary in praying the ‘Rosary for Life’ broadcast on Saturday afternoon on EWTN says it correctly, in mho.

I love Mother Angelica and the Nuns saying their Rosary. Mother Angelica even says “Holy Ghost” instead of “Holy Spirit” at times.

Am I in the minority about this feeling or do other “older” Catholics feel the same.

Fortunately, no one has yet changed the archaic words in the Our Father. Is it because the prayer is from Scripture as taught by Jesus himself?

But, the Hail Mary is also in Scripture; aren’t they the words of the Angel Gabriel and of Mary, herself. Why must they be changed?

And these are Marian priests who have done this.:sad_yes:

Another intrusion is the “International Rosary” broadcast after the Divine Mercy Chaplet wherein the young woman praying the three Hail Mary prayers at the beginning of the Rosary says – “pray for me, a sinner, now and at the hour of my death.”

:knight2:

I will object as soon as someone proves to me that the angel spoke Elizabethan English to Mary. Till then, such nitpicking will only meet rolled eyes from me.

As for the Our Father, same challenge.

And yes, there is a “modern” version of the Our Father, popular in some countries, translated by ICET:

Our Father in heaven
Holy be your name
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread
And forgive us our sins
As we forgive those who sin against us.
Do not lead us to the test
But deliver us from evil.

It’s just a translation, people.