Modernizing the Hail Mary

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atassina said:
Dear brigid12:
I agree and I agree and I agree: we must never change the fundamental meaning. Once a crack appears in the window, it weakens the surrounding structure and them more cracks appear. After a time, nothing is left except cracks. However, there is a clear distinction between passion and fashion and truth and clarity. I consider thee and thine like fashions. One time they made sense, now they no longer make sense. We must stick to the Tradition and not build our house on the traditions, traditions that at one time were life giving but no longer have the same immediacy and power that they once did. CS Lewis wrote about this very issue much better than I have (no surprise).

Yes I like goose, once a year every year. I won’t change the Tradition :nope: , but I will challenge a tradition when it no longer serves the Gospel-- in my not so humble opinion.:yup:
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I like your use of the “crack” simile. It seems to me that if you agree, then why do you want to change the wording?:confused: ‘Thee’ and ‘thine’ apparently don’t have immediacy and power to you or we wouldn’t have any disagreement about it 😃 , to me, IMHO, they certainly have life!
BTW, in which book did CS Lewis write about this issue? I love his writing and would like his opinion, too.
(I like goose at Christmas, too!😉 )
 
cathguy said:
I find changing “thee and thou” to “you and your” problematic. For me it removes an element of the sacral nature of the prayers and renders them more mundane.

Kids can understand thee and thou, and I see absolutely no reason to take beautiful prayers and “dumb them down” as it were.
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👍 I heard someone suggest a “kiddy-speak” Mass, for those who wanted Mass in plain, street English - maybe we should do that with devotions, too.😃
 
Thank you for the compliment about the simile I used. Please answer me this: Does thee and thine sharpen your faith or dull it?
 
malphono said:
:rotfl: I love it!!! One of the best retorts possible… 👍
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So beautiful. Why on earth we need to change the Hail Mary. It would be like changing the color of my child’s eyes. It’s already perfect. No need to fix anything.
 
PKinsale said:
Wow this just seems so … biologically wrong. “fruit of thy breast”?
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I agree. It isn’t exactly how the word is meant. The meaning would be closer to the word “bosom”…which makes a little more sense.

In french that same word “sein” means breast, womb and/or bosom. They use expressions like “au sein du bonheur” at the heart of happiness would be a rough translation or “au sein de la famille” meaning in the very heart of the family.

There is an incongruency which seems diametrically opposed to the modernizing theme : these/this particular word(s) is not a new invention but rather a term which was in use centuries earlier.

Case in point:
Saint Louis de Montfort died in (I think) 1761. In his book The Secret of The Rosary, among different meditations, both short and long form, he refers to the Ascension as " Jesus ascending to the bosom of the Father."
Pardon my slang here, but I don’t think anything could get any “wombier” than the bosom of the Father.

🙂
 
atassina said:
Thank you for the compliment about the simile I used. Please answer me this: Does thee and thine sharpen your faith or dull it?
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Well, I haven’t thought of this, specifically but you and your dull it, whereas thee and thine don’t at all. I would have to say that that is probably due to my learning/reading it with the thee and thou, so it resinates with my earliest memories.
 
Layman said:
  1. “Anyway, I suspect if you said “Get knotted,” the smile on your face would not match what would be in your heart. So it’s still the attitude of the heart that matters.”
You mean if someone insults you to your face the words don’t matter? That is just illogical.

e.g. A fellow happily goes around insulting people and they take no offense because ‘what’s in his heart is what matters’.(?)
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You completely missed my point, which was that if someone insults me with words, then regardless of what’s on his face, the intent of his heart was to insult me (barring Tourette’s, or some other malady). "Out of the abundance of the mouth, the heart speaks (Matt.12:34).

In any case, I’m not talking about telling Jesus or Mary to “get knotted,” nor am I using “street language,” as someone else mentioned. I’m simply using the regular 2nd-person pronoun, not the archaic one (which, by the way, in Shakespeare’s day, was the one used to be insulting).

DaveBj
 
Jacafamala said:
So beautiful. Why on earth we need to change the Hail Mary. It would be like changing the color of my child’s eyes. It’s already perfect. No need to fix anything.
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The Hail Mary has already been changed (at least the first half) three times, from the Aramaic spoken by Gabriel to Mary and by Elizabeth to Mary, to the Greek used by Luke, to the Latin used by St. Jerome, to the Elizabethan English used in the D-R. What’s wrong with the simple exchange of the archaic th** pronouns to the more familiar “you”? Where is it written in authoritative Catholic documents (capital-T Tradition) that we have to pray in archaic language?

DaveBj
 
DaveBj said:
The Hail Mary has already been changed (at least the first half) three times, from the Aramaic spoken by Gabriel to Mary and by Elizabeth to Mary, to the Greek used by Luke, to the Latin used by St. Jerome, to the Elizabethan English used in the D-R. What’s wrong with the simple exchange of the archaic th** pronouns to the more familiar “you”? Where is it written in authoritative Catholic documents (capital-T Tradition) that we have to pray in archaic language?

DaveBj
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First of all, the salutation wasn’t “changed.” It was translated. Big difference.

Secondly, there’s nothing “wrong” with the common “you” form for the second person. It’s a matter of tradition. I said this earlier in this same thread, and rather than repeat it, if you either haven’t seen it or care to look you’ll find it here.
 
I will repeat my question. Perhaps if you answered it we could make deeper progress into the central issue here. Does thee, thine, and thou sharpen your faith or dull it? Thanks, Anthony
 
atassina said:
I will repeat my question. Perhaps if you answered it we could make deeper progress into the central issue here. Does thee, thine, and thou sharpen your faith or dull it? Thanks, Anthony
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I answered your question on post #149 - you must have missed it.
 
malphono said:
First of all, the salutation wasn’t “changed.” It was translated. Big difference.

Secondly, there’s nothing “wrong” with the common “you” form for the second person. It’s a matter of tradition. I said this earlier in this same thread, and rather than repeat it, if you either haven’t seen it or care to look you’ll find it here.
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I hadn’t been keeping track of who was pro and who was con the use of the y** pronouns, but it would appear that we are on the same side.

However, I must disagree with your first statement–translation always involves change, because there are frequently no exact equivalents between any two given languages. And here I speak as a retired professional, 33 years in that field.
atassina said:
I will repeat my question. Perhaps if you answered it we could make deeper progress into the central issue here. Does thee, thine, and thou sharpen your faith or dull it? Thanks, Anthony
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For me, neither. I can use them or not, depending on whether I am praying alone or in a group.

DaveBj
 
I was just wondering , you who like the Elisabethan English, do you speak that way as well? If you’re that traditional why not stick to the Latin?
 
Birgid: Thank you for answering my question. It seems to me that the language we use to talk to God and to talk about God needs to bring us closer to him. If we use language that acts as a buffer and prevents us from opening ourselves up to him, then we need to change the language. However, let us not cry over spilt milk.
 
I use archaic language to step out of the ordinary world and into the extraordinary.
 
Middleman said:
I’m used to thee and thou. I think it sounds more poetic. I also don’t like revisions of the 23d psalm. I like that in the old language. Sometimes I’ll hear it in another way and it just doesn’t sound as good.
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“Thee” and “Thou” were less poetic (to me anyway) but more respectful it seemed.
And I agree - I prefer the 23rd Psalm the way I learned it growing up. When it comes to the 23rd Psalm - THAT sounds poetic in the old version - as well as just plain beautiful.
 
Oh i definately agree. These modern “catholics” think that they can make prayer apeal to more people by changing everything. I think its discusting and offensive to true Catholics as well as to the Blessed virgin who deserves to be spoken to like the Queen that She is.
 
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