Modernizing the Hail Mary

[thunderballs75]

Stick to praying the rosary in Latin. Then you can’t go wrong! God bless.

 

[VivienneJ]

Pray the Rosary in whatever language you find is most prayerful for you.

Allow others to use the language in which they feel most able to pray the Rosary.

But simply do as Mary asked and PRAY THE ROSARY.

 

[mullenpm]

Let me clarify something. I don’t care which language a person uses to pray the Rosary - it can be Italian, Russian, Greek, Chinese for all I care; as long it is in private. Of course, I am beginning to believe that Latin might be the best choice.

I started this thread because I object to an Order of priests making a DVD of a popular Catholic devotion which is broadcast on a major Catholic television station and viewed by thousands of people every day and the priests having the affrontery to change the words of a major Marian prayer - the Hail Mary. To me, this is arrogance.

Because of the popularity of this devotion people will view the program and believe that the correct way to pray the Hail Mary is as on the DVD with their common (and I mean common ) use of “you and your” instead of the traditional “thee and thy.”

Now, I am out of here. I got my answer and I believe the most Catholics prefer the old way.

I doubt there is much more to say on the subject. :harp:

 

[Cristiano]

Part of the reason for this change is that the sense of “thee” and “thy” have changed.

If you know foreign languages, you know that many have a formal form and a familiar form of the pronouns: in German, Sie vs. Die, for instance. The familiar form of “you” and “your” in English used to be thou/thee and thy. This would be how monarchs would address each other, as kin. Likewise, members of a family would use thou/thee/thy Two people with a more formal relationship, like a monarch and a commoner, would use you and your, etc.

The problem is that the sense of this became reversed. People came to see “thee” and “thou” as formal terms, forms proper for addressing a monarch, not familiar forms of address.

Also, “thee” and “thou” are the forms used in the King James Version of the Bible, which is a Protestant translation. It is very much favored in literature circles, though, because of the poetry of the English used. The language is rendered beautifully. In current Catholic translations, though, “you” and “your” are used.

If the older way is what touches your heart, use that. But don’t fear for those who use the modern pronouns. It is OK.

(PS I cannot remember exactly where, but it seems to me that there is a passage in Shakespeare where an angry woman in conversation uses “you” and “your” forms in addressing a man who would formerly have been on thee/thou terms, while the man, trying to patch things up with her, keeps trying the “thee” and “thou” forms with her. Anyone know that one?)

As others have said, thee and thou vs. you is a matter of formal and timeless vs. informal and timely. It’s not a matter of faith, but of tradition and liturgy.

Catholics are sacramental people. We see that there is power in liturgy and tradition to shape and color our spiritual lives. Especially the Hail Mary…come on, that prayer is part of the fabric of our very beings as Catholics. If the wording is so unimportant as you are suggesting, then why change it? CS Lewis also had some things to say about progress for the sake of progress. (Hint: it’s not good)

Here I see a conflict between two statements coming from different people. The first quote says that “thee” and “thy” were less formal compared to “you” and “your”. The second quote says that “thee” is more formal.

Now, my question is only about the English language and has nothing to do with prayer. As a speaker of English as a second language I would like to know the following:

Was “thee” less formal than “you” at the time when both were used in the common language? Is now “thee” considered more formal than “you” in the present language? Is the same answer valid for either American English and the Modern Queen English?
Can someone with a background in literature and/or linguistic give an answer and a reference?

 

[Cristiano]

…But, the Hail Mary is also in Scripture; aren’t they the words of the Angel Gabriel and of Mary, herself. Why must they be changed?

And these are Marian priests who have done this.:sad_yes: …

…I started this thread because I object to an Order of priests making a DVD of a popular Catholic devotion which is broadcast on a major Catholic television station and viewed by thousands of people every day and the priests having the affrontery to change the words of a major Marian prayer - the Hail Mary. To me, this is arrogance.…

I understand your feeling and I think that you have every right to have your own opinion. I would just like to make two points here. The first refers to the first quote and I would like to emphasize that the Luke translation for the lectionary approved by the USCCB uses “you” and “your”, and if you acknowledge (see quote 1) that the prayer comes from Luke I would say (this is just my opinion) that the new usage is not an affront but simply an adaptation to the new version. I would not call a priest arrogant for doing so.

On the other hand the USCCB version of the prayer uses “thee” and “thy” and so my opinion is that any public change coming from a religious or an ordained person could be considered imprudent because it could cause an uncalled friction.

However, there is a third thing that we must consider and that is the fact that maybe these religious men have been instructed to say that prayer exactly in that manner and in obedience to their superiors they do so. Just as an example look at the two different ways we are supposed to pray the “Glory be” in the rosary and in the liturgy of the hours, even in the Church sometime things are not always 100% consistent.

To conclude my rant, I still vote for Latin and that it is just my own opinion.

 

[DaveBj]

Here I see a conflict between two statements coming from different people. The first quote says that “thee” and “thy” were less formal compared to “you” and “your”. The second quote says that “thee” is more formal.

Now, my question is only about the English language and has nothing to do with prayer. As a speaker of English as a second language I would like to know the following:

Was “thee” less formal than “you” at the time when both were used in the common language? Is now “thee” considered more formal than “you” in the present language? Is the same answer valid for either American English and the Modern Queen English?
Can someone with a background in literature and/or linguistic give an answer and a reference?

Originally difference between the th** pronouns and the y** pronouns was that the former were singular and the latter were plural. There was no consideration of formality.

In the time of Shakespeare, the language had evolved so that the th** pronouns were considered familiar or less polite, and the y** pronouns were considered more formal. There is a dialog in one of his plays where a nasty nobleman is trying to force a nice lady to marry him. When the dialog starts, she is using the y** pronouns, but as he gets more insulting and she gets angrier, she switches to the th** pronouns.

The turnaround for considering the th** pronouns more formal, more reverent, whatever is because they were used for the second person singular in both the KJV and the D-R Bibles, which are still very popular. People who were brought up using that kind of language in church, and who don’t understand that the usage was based on person and number, not on reverence, have a hard time wrapping themselves around any changes in their church language. Those who believe that the th** pronouns were somehow reverent need to be reminded that the same pronoun was used on those translations to address the devil: “Get thee behind me, Satan.”

As I have previously stated, in my personal, private prayers, I use 20th-century English. When I am in a group, I follow the old language.

As a side note to illustrate how inconsistent I am, when as a Protestant/evangelical I used to give song-writing seminars, I would caution against using Elizabethan English in lyrics, unless one really understood the grammar, vocabulary, and structure of that language; there are some songs out there with some really bone-headed mistakes. Now that I am a Catholic, I a quick to notice when the editors of the hymnal that we use have changed the th** pronouns for y** pronouns, sometimes totally screwing up the rhyme scheme, and I plug in the old pronouns of the original lyrics every chance I get.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I highly recommend The Teaching Company’s course, “The History of the English Language,” by Prof. Seth Lehrer. That dude really knows his stuff.

DaveBj

 

[Cristiano]

Originally difference between the th** pronouns and the y** pronouns was that the former were singular and the latter were plural. There was no consideration of formality.

In the time of Shakespeare, the language had evolved so that the th** pronouns were considered familiar or less polite, and the y** pronouns were considered more formal. There is a dialog in one of his plays where a nasty nobleman is trying to force a nice lady to marry him. When the dialog starts, she is using the y** pronouns, but as he gets more insulting and she gets angrier, she switches to the th** pronouns.

The turnaround for considering the th** pronouns more formal, more reverent, whatever is because they were used for the second person singular in both the KJV and the D-R Bibles, which are still very popular. People who were brought up using that kind of language in church, and who don’t understand that the usage was based on person and number, not on reverence, have a hard time wrapping themselves around any changes in their church language. Those who believe that the th** pronouns were somehow reverent need to be reminded that the same pronoun was used on those translations to address the devil: “Get thee behind me, Satan.”

As I have previously stated, in my personal, private prayers, I use 20th-century English. When I am in a group, I follow the old language.

As a side note to illustrate how inconsistent I am, when as a Protestant/evangelical I used to give song-writing seminars, I would caution against using Elizabethan English in lyrics, unless one really understood the grammar, vocabulary, and structure of that language; there are some songs out there with some really bone-headed mistakes. Now that I am a Catholic, I a quick to notice when the editors of the hymnal that we use have changed the th** pronouns for y** pronouns, sometimes totally screwing up the rhyme scheme, and I plug in the old pronouns of the original lyrics every chance I get.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I highly recommend The Teaching Company’s course, “The History of the English Language,” by Prof. Seth Lehrer. That dude really knows his stuff.

DaveBj

Thanks for the heads up, and it is great to find another fan of The Teaching Company courses. I already gave them too much of my money, and not enough of my time to really study all the courses that I got.

 

[DaveBj]

Thanks for the heads up, and it is great to find another fan of The Teaching Company courses. I already gave them too much of my money, and not enough of my time to really study all the courses that I got.

I feel ya, Chistiano. At one time I had a list totaling about $2k of courses I wanted to get, and that was the on-sale prices. If I were to redo the list, it’d pro’ly be about $4k now.

Okay, back on topic. Modern English vs. Elizabethan.

DaveBj

 

[atassina]

Yes: those last two comments were quite refreshing. And as our heavenly mother would say: Play nice and have some cake.