Modest Swimwear

[The_Bucket]

If some people have a hard time with Catechism writings… what is to be expected of non-binding recommendations? and I’m not presuming, these are just things I see constantly. Is very frustrating.

Well, I guess is time to devise some guidelines that could appeal that people that don’t care too much about what certain Cardinal said in 1930. But how? maybe considering what people find sexually exciting or is an ocassion of sin for them?

Why not, I don’t know, focus on you and leave others to focus on themselves? If they ask you, offer your counsel. If not, leave it be.

 

[edwest2]

Because is important. This is about sin, about regaining what has been destroyed in the recent decades.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm

Complying with Catholic standards is more important than catering to secularistic sensitivities, etc.

Thank you for providing the right answer. Those who promote lax standards or personal standards not in accord with the teaching of the Church are leading others to think we can make things up as we go along. I recently saw a photo of a model wearing a bikini in a store ad. It was 100% wrong since the obvious goal was to show as much skin as possible. It seems shaving off a few millimeters of cloth as time passes is the other goal. Fashion designers are to blame as well.

Peace,
Ed

 

[CesarAugustus]

Why not, I don’t know, focus on you and leave others to focus on themselves? If they ask you, offer your counsel. If not, leave it be.

Yes, I think guidelines like that are a good idea.

Offering advice, fine, focus on myself, yes, fine too. But sometimes, that crosses with focusing on others… for example. Family. Or what about being an art teacher? I’m tasking students to come up with character designs, for example, ah, modesty comes to play in these situations too, I think.

Or publicity, or design, there are various similar situations.

 

[Galbin]

What I am saying is that Catholic people should follow chastity and modesty, this is not an opinion, this is what the Church has always said. I’m not saying you are wrong when you say there is no specific Church teaching on exactly what we should wear, but it makes me wonder, if there isn’t does that mean we disregard modesty altogether? And that we just decide ourselves what we only ourselves consider modest, and just wear whatever? Honestly, when I started this thread about swim suits, I did not think it was going to turn into an argument, and I am not much of a debater at all, actually I do not like conflict like this… and I feel like I’m being attacked here because I simply follow what I have always considered what being a Catholic is, by wearing proper clothing. I wish this thread could just be closed.

Baby Bach

Since you started the thread, can you not pm a mod and get it closed?

Blessings to you…

 

[thewanderer]

If they have a well-formed conscience, and study these topics… probably they aren’t going to end in a nude protests or “happening”.

Again, I don’t know why so many people in this thread are so interested on excusing lax positions regarding modesty.

I tend to agree that they probably wouldn’t, but they still might, and so, we cannot claim that they are sinning without contradicting Church teaching.

Don’t be discouraged by opinions in this thread.

I have seen lots of modesty threads in this forum. Excuses, excuses, the same arguments, etc.

You say you’re not, but there are other posters that have been doing that.

If you mean by that that there are posters here on this thread trying to excuse immodest behaviour you should show exactly why you are making that claim. If it is not occuring on this particular thread then it seems rather besides the point. Just for the record, I am in no way making excuses for immodest behaviour. I made it very clear in my post that one must be careful to form their conscience according to Church teaching and to honestly seek the truth. I will go further and make it clear that modesty in dress is a very important part of the Christian life and cannot be neglected. By clarifying what is and is not Church teaching I am in no way negating the importance of modesty. The thing is that while its very bad to promote immodesty it is just as bad to promote false understandings of Church teaching. We must present the truth as accurately as we can, if other people then make excuses to avoid accepting the whole truth its not our fault, but we will be culpable for leading others astray, no matter which excess we lead them to.

What I am saying is that Catholic people should follow chastity and modesty, this is not an opinion, this is what the Church has always said. I’m not saying you are wrong when you say there is no specific Church teaching on exactly what we should wear, but it makes me wonder, if there isn’t does that mean we disregard modesty altogether? And that we just decide ourselves what we only ourselves consider modest, and just wear whatever? Honestly, when I started this thread about swim suits, I did not think it was going to turn into an argument, and I am not much of a debater at all, actually I do not like conflict like this… and I feel like I’m being attacked here because I simply follow what I have always considered what being a Catholic is, by wearing proper clothing. I wish this thread could just be closed.

You are so right that modesty and chastity are important, and that the Church herself teaches that we must be modest and chaste, this is a non-negotiable obligation on all Christians. It is precisely because of this that we must not be discouraged and give up on our efforts to be modest simply because there is not a detailed description of what is and is not modest for every single occasion. Instead, we must rely on our own judgement, prudence, and well-formed conscience, taking into account the advice of those we trust.

I’m sorry that you feel like you are being attacked. You presented a stricter set of guidelines for what is and isn’t considered modest than most people here would agree with. Unless I am mistaken, the harsh response was to the idea that every Catholic must embrace that set of guidelines rather than to the idea that anyone follow such a set of guidelines. If you honestly believe that those guidelines must be followed in order to be modest then follow your conscience and don’t worry about what anybody else thinks. But, at the same time, be sensitive to the fact that others, in their honest search for the line of what is modest and immodest will come to different conclusions, and the fact that they came to different conclusions does not mean they are being immodest, even if it is immodest by your standards. We are all just flawed humans doing our best to follow Christ as best we can with what we have, so we all need to give each other some slack. That means those with stricter standards need to take a step back and recognize that others may be legitimiately following their well-formed conscience, even when they dress in more revealing clothing. At the same time, those with less strict standards must be mindful of the fact that those with stricter standards aren’t necessarily trying to impose their stricter standards on everyone, and that they have just as much of a right/duty to follow their conscience by following the stricter guidelines as those with less strict guidelines have to follow their guidelines.

 

[thewanderer]

I speak from experience. There are nicer ways to say it than expressing the level of horror at the ugliness of the suit. I was taken aback by the strong opinions, and it even made me feel self conscious about the bathing suit I’ve worn for the last few years, because mine is longer and uglier than the one in the OP. I can’t speak for the OP personally, but I know I am not the only person who feels this way, so this is my experience: I was morbidly obese for several years. I tried on ALL the styles of bathing suits, including tanks, tankinis, swim mini skirts, those shorts you get at Lands End, and a variety of cover ups. At my heavier weights NONE of those options looked good on me. I would NEVER show that much of my body at that weight in regular clothes - not because of modesty, but because it would have been embarrassing and terribly unflattering. I was so thrilled and relieved to find a company that made bathing suit skirts that go below the knees, and rash guard tops to match, and I finally felt like I could go swimming without feeling horribly embarrassed. Well, when I wore the suit, I got a number of comments from people who are close to me that made me feel really ugly in that suit. The problem is, they didn’t understand that I had already tried everything else, and that I was certain that this was the best of my choices. So not only did I feel embarrassed at the suit, but I felt like I must REALLY be ugly, if the best looking thing on me looked that bad. The people who were more diplomatic about my dilemma (I felt like I had to explain my suit everywhere I went) would just tell me it was great to have such a unique option, and they thought it was neat. Those people didn’t make me feel embarrassed. Well, my bathing suit covered more and was far uglier than the one posted in the OP. So I was personally taken aback by the fact that people had such strong feelings about that suit. It made me feel like I would really be considered a freak if I showed up on a beach in front of the CAF crowd.

I understand that people weren’t trying to insult me or the OP or anyone. And I don’t know how many of you saying that it is not personal are men or women, and I’m sure I shouldn’t generalize anyway, but as someone who is sensitive about this issue, I am saying that people should really be nicer about the way they give their opinions. You don’t know if someone reading this thread has already bought and worn that bathing suit, and you don’t know if someone might suddenly question their judgment or feel embarrassed about their own situation. It’s like when your wife asks you what you think of the new pants - you NEVER say, “oh honey don’t wear those, you look really fat in them!” even if you don’t like them. Instead you find a more diplomatic and sensitive way to say that you like a different pair better, or that a different pair is more flattering. There is just a level of care and kindness that you need to use when online, especially considering you don’t know your audience.

Ok that’s the end of sensitivity training for today. As you were…

Since this is online, and so very public, you are probably right that people should have been a little more sensitive in how they posted, but even still, they were clearly trying to help the OP find a prettier suit (as per her request) rather than just commenting negatively on something she had already settled for, which does make a huge difference.

As for the idea that the husband should always avoid saying you look fat in something… well, that all depends on the people involved and the situation at hand. Some people actually appreciate the unwatered down version of the truth, but, again, for the internet where you can’t know your audience you are right, we should be more sensitive. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I tend to agree that they probably wouldn’t, but they still might, and so, we cannot claim that they are sinning without contradicting Church teaching.

So what about the Priest that filled a lawsuit against a nude happening?

Was he contradicting doctrine?

If you mean by that that there are posters here on this thread trying to excuse immodest behaviour you should show exactly why you are making that claim. If it is not occuring on this particular thread then it seems rather besides the point. Just for the record, I am in no way making excuses for immodest behaviour. I made it very clear in my post that one must be careful to form their conscience according to Church teaching and to honestly seek the truth. I will go further and make it clear that modesty in dress is a very important part of the Christian life and cannot be neglected. By clarifying what is and is not Church teaching I am in no way negating the importance of modesty. The thing is that while its very bad to promote immodesty it is just as bad to promote false understandings of Church teaching. We must present the truth as accurately as we can, if other people then make excuses to avoid accepting the whole truth its not our fault, but we will be culpable for leading others astray, no matter which excess we lead them to.

Read the entire topic, you can see it by yourself.

 

[thewanderer]

So what about the Priest that filled a lawsuit against a nude happening?

Was he contradicting doctrine?

Did he claim that the person involved was necessarily sinning? If not then no, of course he did not contradict Church teachinig. He must follow his own conscience just as others must follow theirs.

Read the entire topic, you can see it by yourself.

Actually, I really can’t. I do not see excuses for immodesty in this thread at all. If you disagree I would appreciate you actually giving evidence rather than just making claims to that effect.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Did he claim that the person involved was necessarily sinning? If not then no, of course he did not contradict Church teachinig. He must follow his own conscience just as others must follow theirs.

Actually, I really can’t. I do not see excuses for immodesty in this thread at all. If you disagree I would appreciate you actually giving evidence rather than just making claims to that effect.

Show me, where is defined, that someone claming that says certain clothings are sinful, is something against Church doctrine.

If you can’t see people arguing in favor of bikinis, for example… well, check again.

I’m sorry that you feel like you are being attacked. You presented a stricter set of guidelines for what is and isn’t considered modest than most people here would agree with. Unless I am mistaken, the harsh response was to the idea that every Catholic must embrace that set of guidelines rather than to the idea that anyone follow such a set of guidelines. If you honestly believe that those guidelines must be followed in order to be modest then follow your conscience and don’t worry about what anybody else thinks. But, at the same time, be sensitive to the fact that others, in their honest search for the line of what is modest and immodest will come to different conclusions, and the fact that they came to different conclusions does not mean they are being immodest, even if it is immodest by your standards. We are all just flawed humans doing our best to follow Christ as best we can with what we have, so we all need to give each other some slack. That means those with stricter standards need to take a step back and recognize that others may be legitimiately following their well-formed conscience, even when they dress in more revealing clothing. At the same time, those with less strict standards must be mindful of the fact that those with stricter standards aren’t necessarily trying to impose their stricter standards on everyone, and that they have just as much of a right/duty to follow their conscience by following the stricter guidelines as those with less strict guidelines have to follow their guidelines.

Also, how you can compare, someone with strict guidelines, to someone with a lax approach, as if both were somewhat equal… wow.

 

[thewanderer]

Show me, where is defined, that someone claming that says certain clothings are sinful, is something against Church doctrine.

If you can’t see people arguing in favor of bikinis, for example… well, check again.

I could be wrong but I certainly don’t remember anyone arguing for bikinis in this thread, a lot of people offered advice to the OP as to how she can cover up while swimming though.

Also, how you can compare, someone with strict guidelines, to someone with a lax approach, as if both were somewhat equal… wow.

This is Church teaching. If both people have formed their consciences according to Church teaching and have honestly tried to determine what is and is not modest then neither will sin. Sure, they can’t both be right about where the line for modesty is, but neither will be sinning. Like I said, that is simply Church teaching and cannot be rejected without becoming a “cafeteria Catholic”. You can’t just pick and choose which teachings of the Church you will accept. You have to accept both that modesty is very important and that each person must follow their own well-formed conscience as to what is modest attire rather than following the consciences of others. You can express as much shock as you wish but it will not change the fact that both of these are Church teachings and neither can be rejected by any of the faithful. I know that I personally will continue to accept and promote Church teaching rather than the opinions of others on the internet. I hope you will choose to do the same.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I could be wrong but I certainly don’t remember anyone arguing for bikinis in this thread, a lot of people offered advice to the OP as to how she can cover up while swimming though.

Read again.

This is Church teaching. If both people have formed their consciences according to Church teaching and have honestly tried to determine what is and is not modest then neither will sin. Sure, they can’t both be right about where the line for modesty is, but neither will be sinning. Like I said, that is simply Church teaching and cannot be rejected without becoming a “cafeteria Catholic”. You can’t just pick and choose which teachings of the Church you will accept. You have to accept both that modesty is very important and that each person must follow their own well-formed conscience as to what is modest attire rather than following the consciences of others. You can express as much shock as you wish but it will not change the fact that both of these are Church teachings and neither can be rejected by any of the faithful. I know that I personally will continue to accept and promote Church teaching rather than the opinions of others on the internet. I hope you will choose to do the same.

Good, that was I was speaking of. They both can’t be right.

If someone has honestly tried to get what is modest or not, has a well developed conscience, and follows Church teaching, I doubt that they would wear something revealing.

“**The good of our soul is more important than that of our body; and we have to prefer the spiritual welfare of our neighbor to our bodily comforts. If a certain kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin, and endangers the salvation of your soul and others, it is your duty to give it up. **O Christian mothers, if you knew what a future of anxieties and perils, of ill-guarded shame you prepare for your sons and daughters, imprudently getting them accustomed to live scantily dressed and making them lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves and you would dread the harm you are making of yourselves, the harm which you are causing these children, whom Heaven has entrusted to you to be brought up as Christians.”

Pius XII to Catholic Young Women’s Groups of Italy

I’m still waiting for the Magisterial teaching about declaring certain clothings a sin, is against Church doctrine. I know about a Bishop that did that in 1927.

And, please, don’t insult me comparing me to a cafeteria Catholic. I’m not even attacking you. Don’t lecture me on that, I’m aware of the need to follow Church doctrine.

 

[thewanderer]

Read again.

Good, that was I was speaking of. They both can’t be right.

If someone has honestly tried to get what is modest or not, has a well developed conscience, and follows Church teaching, I doubt that they would wear something revealing.

However their understanding of what is revealing might differ greatly from yours, and, so long as they have been careful to form their conscience according to official Church teaching and have been honest in their search for the line between modest and immodest they will not sin by wearing something you consider to be revealing, whether or not they are mistaken about it. This is undeniably what the Church teaches via its teaching on the primacy of conscience. It cannot be either disputed or rejected.

I’m still waiting for the Magisterial teaching about declaring certain clothings a sin, is against Church doctrine. I know about a Bishop that did that in 1927.

And, please, don’t insult me comparing me to a cafeteria Catholic. I’m not even attacking you. Don’t lecture me on that, I’m aware of the need to follow Church doctrine.

All I am doing is stating fact. It is the official teaching of the Church that so long as one follows ones well-formed conscience one will not sin, even if one is mistaken about where the correct line is for moral action. To refute or deny this is to become a “cafeteria Catholic” ie, one who picks and chooses which of the Churches teachings they wish to follow. I am not claiming you are such a person, but merely stating the facts about Church teaching in this matter.

As for the idea that it is against Church teaching to declare certain clothing sinful… well, for one thing, seeing as the Church has made it clear that even nudity itself is not sinful in some circumstances it is clearly impossible for the Church to come out with a statement that a particular article of clothing is inherently sinful. However, if the magisterium were to come out with an official Church teaching that certain articles of clothing were sinful in certain situations then that would become a part of official church teaching and of course must be accepted by all Catholics. It is not that the Church teaches it is wrong to define what is and is not modest but rather that the Church’s teachings about the primacy of conscience in matters which the Church has not defined through explicit teaching make it impossible for anyone to accurately make a universal claim that an action not treated of specifically in Church teaching is always sinful. This remains true as long as the action is not dealt with specifically by official Church teaching. Priests may, of course, present their opinions on the matter of what is the correct course of action, but these opinions are not to be given more weight than each individual’s own well-formed conscience. That is the teaching of the Church on the primacy of the conscience. And that is not to say that we can lightly toss aside the opinions of those who disagree with us. But it is to say that when a specific scenario is not covered by official Church teaching the way we determine whether or not it is moral for us to act is by consulting out own well-formed conscience, we may all come to different conclusions, and, in doing so clearly cannot all be ultimately correct, but none of us will sin in following our conscience in such a situation.

Seeing as the OP has previously expressed dissatisfaction with the present course of the thread this will be my last post here. I believe I have made my point sufficiently clear.
God Bless

 

[georgie29]

I saw a picture of Nicole Kidman wearing a high necked long sleeved top, almost like scuba gear.

I like suits that are 2 piece, with either skirt or boy short, similar to what was called a playsuit when I was little.