Modesty for women and men

[Portrait]

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From what I have seen – the “modesty” movement itself – promotes/engenders a “disordered fixation on body parts”.

Dear Walking_Home,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Those who advocate modesty in choice of clothing are merely thinking with an authentic Christian mind and responding to the decadent West’s obessession with sex and its tendency to view women especially as an assemblege of body parts. How can a devout Catholic remain silent regarding such a disordered fixation, dear friend?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[severus68]

Dear severus68,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

If that is the case, dear sister, then our Church and Sacred Scripture have objectified women, since both have always insisted strongly on women being clad in modest vesture.

Of course women should not be viewed only in terms of body parts, but we must needs take into consideration mankind’s fallen estate and the presence of concupiscence. This is precisely what St. Paul did when he enjoined women to “adorn themselves modestly and with seemly attire” (I Tim. 2: 9). Given our fallenness, steps must be taken by both women and men to neutralize the strength of evil desire and this will include wearing clothing that will not incite lust or impure thoughts, in either of the sexes. Whilst lust does originate from within man’s heart, it is still, nevertheless, wont to be stumulated by external factors, hence St. Paul’s counsel for women to dress decently with a proper reserve. As a pre-VII manual of instruction puts it:

“The virtue of modesty is the virtue which protects chastity by inclining us to guard our senses, so as not to invite temptation, and to be considerate in our dress and behaviour, so as not to cause temptation in others”

(Christ in Us, Killgallon and Weber, Sheed & Ward 1959, p. 268).

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
"

I think people should try to rise above any inclination to sin and not blame their sins on anyone. On these threads, it is always about women inciting poor men, an insult to men and women. We have men lusting after toes, women in burqa and even children. So which external factors cause them to so lust?

I will not respond on your Scripture quotes as they have been explained many times in many similar threads.

I see you still have an issue with Vatican II.

 

[Portrait]

I’m going to jump past all the miscommunication and just put in my two cents

I’m nearly 30 - when I left the church in my early mid-20’s, I don’t think I dressed very modestly. My skirts were too short (though by no means anywhere near the length of short-shorts this season!), and I showed too much of my upper chest. Haha - thankfully God did not make me too well endowed, so showing cleavage was never a problem.

When I was looking at getting back into a relationship with God, I also had a friend who was getting more seriously into her Judaism beliefs. Her thoughts on modest dress made me think - she was confident enough in her body that she could cover it up from the leering eyes of men, and save it for some man who will be lucky enough to be her husband someday. She did not feel like she had to dress modestly, but she wanted to, and feels good doing so.

I also have relatives who are Mormon - and one day it hit me, that my then-in-highschool female cousin never looked “skanky” in any of her pictures. She always looked well put together and quite professional for a grade 11 and 12 teen.

Then I looked at my Protestant friends - I have seen one of my friends’ cleavage more times than I care for. And its right out there for everyone to see. And this is a good “Christian” girl - my guess is she is just way too naive to know what men (and women!) are actually thinking.

In any case, since last summer, I have started dressing much more modestly. Skirts/shorts to my knees, and covering my shoulders. Now that its getting warmer, and it does get crazy hot where I live, it might take some being creative.

I wish more girls dressed modestly - I think sometimes it may come down to just having a talk with them and seeing what their thoughts are and if they are able to understand God’s given Holiness of their bodies.

As for men - I live in a town where men are always shirtless in the summer, with shaved chests! I figured if I can see that a man shaves his chest, he should very well put his shirt back on.

Dear ubcgirl,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Excellent post that and I trust that your remarks will be duly noted by all who view this current thread.

With a few rare exceptions Protestantism has, for the most, capitulated to the debased standards and fashions of the world with respect to clothing. Thus I am not the least surprised, dear sister, regarding the unseemly clothing choices of your friends. However, when I converted to the Catholicism a few years ago, I was astounded and deeply saddened by the seemingly large number of Catholics, especially the young, who also have shamefully adopted the indecorous fashions of the godless world. Even on CAF you will hear professing Catholics vociferously defend a woman’s right to wear mini-skirts and tightly-fitting garments that accentuate the anatomy. This is surely indicative of the Laodicean times in which our lot is cast and the extent to which unspiritual and secular thinking has infilitrated the Church since the 1960’s. Truly our plight is most desperate.

Anyway it is a refreshing change to read a post like yours and may God bless you for your decision last year to start dressing modestly. Let us hope and pray, dear sister, that others will follow your good example.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Baelor]

Those who advocate modesty in choice of clothing are merely thinking with an authentic Christian mind and responding to the decadent West’s obessession with sex and its tendency to view women especially as an assemblege of body parts.

Modesty on this basis is in fact the product of such an obsession; modesty on this basis operates on the assumption that we do view each other as assemblages of body parts.

 

[johnnyjones]

I was responding to your equating how a person dresses (when it does not meet your standards of “modesty”), to presenting herself as an object of lust. I did not equate lust with rape. My question to you was:

"does that mean a woman who is dressed ‘lmmodestly’ according to you and is raped, asked for it as using your words she presented herself as “an object of lust” ?

Perhaps you could answer that and not go off tangent?

Your going from lust turning into rape when we were originally talking about stumbling blocks. By the way, the general consensus, by psychologists and the like is that rape is not derived from a mans lust (many rapists are married and “satisfied” by their wives). It is about the dominance of women, control. A rapist will use sex as the tool to demean and conquer a women. In addition their is an underlying hatred for women.

The “she was asking for it” by how she was dressed is the false motive that a rapist gives. Your playing around with the word “action”. So to help things along, rape is a physical action as opposed to your “action” of thought. No women should be raped based on clothes. But a women could be “undressed” in a mans mind.

Sexy or provocative clothes provide NO stimulus for many men? Try to guess true or false. If the answer is true, it seems like clothes can promote lust.

 

[Walking_Home]

Dear Walking_Home,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Those who advocate modesty in choice of clothing are merely thinking with an authentic Christian mind and responding to the decadent West’s obessession with sex and its tendency to view women especially as an assemblege of body parts. How can a devout Catholic remain silent regarding such a disordered fixation, dear friend?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

---

As I said prior --seems to be – the ones that see women as an “assemblage of body parts/disordered fixation” – are the ones pushing the “modesty” movement. A real authentic Christian mind – sees another – as a human being – as child of God – no matter what the person wears.

 

[johnnyjones]

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Lust is an action of the mind. A lustful man will transfer what is already present in his mind – onto the woman. Lust does not come via the woman – from the outside in – but from the lustful man’s mind.

The lust of the flesh is always present. St. Paul will tell you that and he wrote two thirds of the New Testament.

 

[Portrait]

I think people should try to rise above any inclination to sin and not blame their sins on anyone. On these threads, it is always about women inciting poor men, an insult to men and women. We have men lusting after toes, women in burqa and even children. So which external factors cause them to so lust?

I will not respond on your Scripture quotes as they have been explained many times in many similar threads.

I see you still have an issue with Vatican II.

Dear severus68,

Hello again and thankyou for your response above.

People should indeed endeavour to subdue their sinful tendencies and keep their bodies in subjection. Both women and men are capable of inciting unchaste thoughts by their choice of indecorous clothing and I would never deny this, dear sister. My apologies if I gave you that impression.

St. Paul’s exhortation (I Tim. 2: 9) for women to dress modestly and in seemly attire is as relevant today as it was when he first wrote it, for man is still a fallen being, subject to concupiscence and a propensity to sin. This being the case external factors such the sight of scantily clad men or women are going to enflame lust and impure thoughts, it is just part of the human condition subsequent to the Fall, dear sister. Thus it makes good sense to do whatever one can to minimise the strength of evil desire and this will include avoiding garments that are sexually provocative, as well as striving to rise above our sinful disposition. It is not either/or but both/and.

The magisterium today would surely be in agreement with the citation from Kilgallon and Weber on the duty of being considerate in our dress, so as not to be the occasion of temptation in others. That will always be necessary in every age of the Church, since men will always have fallen natures with which to contend with.

Supper time now, but do enjoy the rest of your evening, dear sister. God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Lust is an action of the mind. A lustful man will transfer what is already present in his mind – onto the woman. Lust does not come via the woman – from the outside in – but from the lustful man’s mind.

**The lust of the flesh is always present. **St. Paul will tell you that and he wrote two thirds of the New Testament.

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For the ones that want to give into the “lust of the flesh” and not be responsible for their own thoughts – yes – it will always be present.

 

[johnnyjones]

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As I said prior --seems to be – the ones that see women as an “assemblage of body parts/disordered fixation” – are the ones pushing the “modesty” movement. A real authentic Christian mind – sees another – as a human being – as child of God – no matter what the person wears.

Yes, you should see as a Christian everyone as a human being. If you think men won’t mentally dwell more on a woman that looks “hot” as in sexy clothes, more than a women dressed casual, I don’t where you live. It is a woman’s choice to wear what she wants, however many Christian women prefer not to dress"hot" because their inner morality projects outwardly.

As I said before, these woman are not “prudes” and they are possibly waiting to show that" other side "of themselves their future husband.

 

[Baelor]

Yes, you should see as a Christian everyone as a human being. If you think men won’t mentally dwell more on a woman that looks “hot” as in sexy clothes, more than a women dressed casual, I don’t where you live.

The men dwell on the women. That is their choice. Let us be absolutely clear on that point. No one is compelling them to dwell on hotly-dressed women.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

As I said prior --seems to be – the ones that see women as an “assemblage of body parts/disordered fixation” – are the ones pushing the “modesty” movement. A real authentic Christian mind – sees another – as a human being – as child of God – no matter what the person wears.

Yes, you should see as a Christian everyone as a human being.** If you think men won’t mentally dwell more on a woman that looks “hot” as in sexy clothes, more than a women dressed casual, I don’t where you live. It is a woman’s choice to wear what she wants, however many Christian women prefer not to dress"hot" because their inner morality projects outwardly.**

As I said before, these woman are not “prudes” and they are possibly waiting to show that" other side "of themselves their future husband.

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Since I am not God – I cannot know/see the interior disposition – of a person-- based on what they wear. Those men – who “mentally dwell”-- need to work on themselves – in developing a true authentic Christian attitude towards others.

 

[nickiwool]

Ok then what about the ones who don’t believe in God? I am just wondering because they are many many men and woman walking around who either don’t believe or say then do believe but fallow nothing in a religion, then what. For example, I decide I want to go to the mall in a short skirt with a tube top. If two young men started staring at me as I walk by smiling and looking at my bottom as I walk by then that’s ok? because this nation “allows” me to wear as I please and it’s “their” fault not mine that they are staring at me wrongly. I really have no fault in this?. Maybe its just here in california then, but everwhere in these malls this happens. I see girls dressed as they please then see men just staring with grins. Sometimes older men too looking at younger teenage girls. Why oh why is this ok . I am grateful for freedom of religion and right to speak my mind, but I do not think it is right to take advantage of freedom either, and accept that I can dress provocative or have an abortion if I please and fallow the ways of the rest. Just think what would happen of this nation or world if us who say we fallow a religion also do the same as the rest of society. Sometimes I feel like the Amish have a better chance in to enter the heavens then us who are just the same as everyone else. We wouldn’t dare walk into a church with such attire but see it ok to do outside of church, does God not see us outside is he not out here but only in a church? I believe he is everywhere. It is as if a person is nice to let their fellow church member walk in the doors before you but on Wednesday not let a person merging on the freeway in because you don’t feel like slowing down. If only we all where out here as we are when we attend church, what a wonderful thing we would be doing and showing those that do not believe. I do have a right to do as I please but no thank you, I wish to do as I see would make my God happy. I don’t know just my thoughts.

-Nicki

 

[johnnyjones]

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For the ones that want to give into the “lust of the flesh” and not be responsible for their own thoughts – yes – it will always be present.

Yes, and help your brother or sister. Contribute not towards what aids the lust of the flesh.

 

[johnnyjones]

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Since I am not God – I cannot know/see the interior disposition – of a person-- based on what they wear. Those men – who “mentally dwell”-- need to work on themselves – in developing a true authentic Christian attitude towards others.

No one knows the inner workings of another, your right. Many cultures have a certain view on modes of dress. Why would anyone think, especially in our current age, that how one dresses has nothing to do with the projection of image. The greatest fashion designers evoke the importance of projecting “who you are”. Fashion makes a point, it is designed to do that.

Some on this thread are making the mistake of thinking that I or others that support a “conservative” dress style are judging the inner person. Thats not my job as Christian as you rightly point out.

 

[johnnyjones]

Ok then what about the ones who don’t believe in God? I am just wondering because they are many many men and woman walking around who either don’t believe or say then do believe but fallow nothing in a religion, then what. For example, I decide I want to go to the mall in a short skirt with a tube top. If two young men started staring at me as I walk by smiling and looking at my bottom as I walk by then that’s ok? because this nation “allows” me to wear as I please and it’s “their” fault not mine that they are staring at me wrongly. I really have no fault in this?. Maybe its just here in california then, but everwhere in these malls this happens. I see girls dressed as they please then see men just staring with grins. Sometimes older men too looking at younger teenage girls. Why oh why is this ok . I am grateful for freedom of religion and right to speak my mind, but I do not think it is right to take advantage of freedom either, and accept that I can dress provocative or have an abortion if I please and fallow the ways of the rest. Just think what would happen of this nation or world if us who say we fallow a religion also do the same as the rest of society. Sometimes I feel like the Amish have a better chance in to enter the heavens then us who are just the same as everyone else. We wouldn’t dare walk into a church with such attire but see it ok to do outside of church, does God not see us outside is he not out here but only in a church? I believe he is everywhere. It is as if a person is nice to let their fellow church member walk in the doors before you but on Wednesday not let a person merging on the freeway in because you don’t feel like slowing down. If only we all where out here as we are when we attend church, what a wonderful thing we would be doing and showing those that do not believe. I do have a right to do as I please but no thank you, I wish to do as I see would make my God happy. I don’t know just my thoughts.

-Nicki

Wow. Awesome Christian commentary on our current state of affairs. Thank you for being a female that understands the importance of fashion…

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

For the ones that want to give into the “lust of the flesh” and not be responsible for their own thoughts – yes – it will always be present.

Yes, and help your brother or sister. Contribute not towards what aids the lust of the flesh.

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That’s another thing --johnnyjones. We cannot transfer the responsibility for our sins onto another. Each and every one of us – is responsible/accountable for our own sin. We sin on our own.

 

[Walking_Home]

No one knows the inner workings of another, your right. Many cultures have a certain view on modes of dress. Why would anyone think, especially in our current age, that how one dresses has nothing to do with the projection of image. The greatest fashion designers evoke the importance of projecting “who you are”. Fashion makes a point, it is designed to do that.

Some on this thread are making the mistake of thinking that I or others that support a “conservative” dress style are judging the inner person. Thats not my job as Christian as you rightly point out.

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We as Catholic Christians – should not be "focusing’ on “projected images” – but in looking at others as children of God-- no matter what the person wears.

 

[johnnyjones]

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That’s another thing --johnnyjones. We cannot transfer the responsibility for our sins onto another. Each and every one of us – is responsible/accountable for our own sin. We sin on our own.

There are multiple examples in scripture and in the lives of the saints where one has caused another to sin, you are wrong. With the logic you embrace there would be no such word as “stumbling block”. ULTIMATELY we are resonsible for our own sins.

 

[Walking_Home]

There are multiple examples in scripture and in the lives of the saints where one has caused another to sin, you are wrong. With the logic you embrace there would be no such word as “stumbling block”. ULTIMATELY we are resonsible for our own sins.

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If I “teach” another – to objectify/devalue a human being – based on what she wears – yes – that is a “stumbling block”. This is ingrained in the “modesty” movement.