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severus68
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If a man lusts he should look at himself and work on himself, not go around telling women what to and judging women on what they wear. Only God knows what is in the heart/soul of a person.
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Baelor
Guest
I do not know; I am not a woman nor have I worn a thong. And there were things besides thongs mentioned in the post.
I would hesitate to guess the motives of people because I have not met all three billion persons to whom this discussion applies most directly.
I am glad to know that you are every woman on the face of this planet ever. It makes discussions about women much easier.Sorry but no not for comfortI’ve worn all these and it was not for comfort by any means.
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Walking_Home
Guest
We as Catholics – should not go around “looking for motives”. We are called – to see the other – as a child of God.
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severus68
Guest
I note that you only show manners to those who agree with you.
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severus68
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Actually you and another poster have been telling everyone what not to wear. We who disagree have made it very clear that you have the right to wear what you want. So what you say above is not correct. Please re-read the posts.
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OurBeloved
Guest
I think the best source for you would be the Theology of the Body by John Paul II which is available online. Do keep in mind that there are many misunderstood individuals who tend to take that teaching and twist it around to somehow justify their cause or teach error. Even Christopher West, who was devoted to exclusively lecturing on Theology of the Body started erring during his presentations and was called out by many (including John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family) had to go on sabbatical and do some quiet reflecting. So be weary.
In short though, what you have to realize is that modesty in dress, comes down to personal sensitivity and avoiding tempting others. Most women today grow up in a culture that does not teach them a concept of personal sensitivity and actively encourages them to dress in a way to attract males in anyway. Since the easiest is sexual attraction, it is no surprise as to what direction many girls like to take with this form of encouragement.
The concept of personal sensitivity is the shame one feels in exposing what should be private or reserved exclusively for ones spouse. Quiet conveniently, there is a significant overlap between what should be reserved for ones own privacy and that of ones spouse and what would lead others to temptation.
One should, as a woman, at all times try to dress in such a way that maintains all of the above.
Upon the incorrect teachings promulgated by some who call themselves Catholics, you will find the tendency to perhaps get rid of the idea that a person can tempt others to sin by the way they dress. They will sometimes try to quote JPII’s Theology of the Body as perhaps supporting them. Beware of them and know that what they teach is false.
You can find the entire Theology of the Body text here for free on EWTN
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm
Articles and teachings directly from the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family are also a good source and very reliable.
But for a quick plumb line for your gathering, just make sure that the girls wear clothing that does not lead others to temptation. This will accomplish the maintaining of a healthy degree of personal sensitivity as well.
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nickiwool
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You have said we shouldn’t judge then why are you saying some catholics are sick, perverted and immoral.
I never called your arguements weak so why say that to mine. I brought up abortion as an example to something else that someone could find important, I said I believe all those things, abortions, same sex marriage and dress code are all important. I am not saying your for abortion. It was an example to explain how I believe It’s just as important as the rest. and how we all have a right to speak out about them if we choose. Yes we have right to dress as we please, as I have a right to speak out about what I feel about it. and it’s not just I and another poster telling everyone what not to wear, it is I and several others who had done the same and said what we feel is inappropriate. As there are several on your end as well.
I still believe there is a happy medium somewhere in all of this between us all.
Many blessings,
-Nicki
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nickiwool
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I am only speaking for myself yes. I have worn such clothing and they where not comfortable for me. I don’t really know anyone who found the thong comfortable. I sad faced your comment to show respect in my answer that for me no they are not comfortable, but you respond to me sarcastically.
Many blessings,
-Nicki
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nickiwool
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I apologize but I have no idea what you mean here. You might have read my post in error, as I failed on punctuation. I wrote in a hurry and did not make sense on what I intended on saying. Some of the things I wrote might be taken incorrectly. Again I am sorry,
Many blessings,
-Nicki
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Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Again, what is it with you and mixing up something so simple into something needlessly complicated?
ripriprip
Oh wait, I’m ripping air. What was that about context again? I don’t remember needing context to relay such a basic point of human wisdom. You tell me to question society yet completely ignore any statement that challenges you to question your very own eyes.
I repeat, much of Jesus’ attacks on the religious of his day were because they were hypocrites who cared more about keeping appearances than actually caring about what matters: the inside.
Oh please, stop confusing Catholicism with collectivism. Plenty of our core doctrines on sin and accountability base themselves on our individuality, our capacity to think and act independent of a mindless collective. We are ultimately responsible for how we react to what we see, we don’t make the rest of the world adjust to us. The whole doesn’t revolve around YOUR weakness or MINE.
If clothes matter, then I guess you’re all for the harassing and beating up of people who dress like me: the nerds, hooded, the four-eyed etc. Clothes matter right? So I guess the fashion police are just as much as entitled to declare that what’s on the outside is all there is to a person, just like the modesty police. Just like you.
Yes and I’m pretty sure that colonial slaves deserved their lot of slavery and cultural destruction for dressing differently from their oh-so-Christian white colonizers. Appearances are soooo critical for us humans. Never mind how looks have been used to distract and deceive. It’s not worldly, it’s holy to care so much about how I look that I spend an hour in front of a mirror worrying about whether I’m dressing too immodestly/unfashionably.
Yeah, what people do, not what people wear.
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thewanderer
Guest
I’m gonna admit, I find it absolutely bizarre that these modesty thread always get so out of hand. I don’t really understand why its so difficult. Yes, it is always wrong when a man lusts after a woman. However it is also a matter of charity for a woman to not wear clothing that she knows is likely to lead men into sin. The same goes in reverse for women lusting after men and men’s choice of apparel. Of course it is wrong to judge the inent of a specific woman in wearing whatever it is that she is wearing. However, that doesn’t mean that certain clothing and fashion are generally speaking worn for a provocative purpose. That also doesn’t mean that certain clothing isn’t more of a stumbling block than others.
So, men and women must always strive for purity. They must also out of charity not wear something they know is going to be provacative. And finally, just as importantly, no one should judge any other person as to their intent in wearing specific clothing. I really don’t see how its any more complicated than these three things.
So, men and women must always strive for purity. They must also out of charity not wear something they know is going to be provacative. And finally, just as importantly, no one should judge any other person as to their intent in wearing specific clothing. I really don’t see how its any more complicated than these three things.
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Lost_Wanderer
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The fickleness of human vision is what makes it complicated along with the persistent arrogance of some people who believe that clinging to superficiality is a virtue.I really don’t see how its any more complicated than these three things.
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severus68
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I am confused now but let me explain that I have no issue with you having your own views and dressing the way you want. I cannot impose my views on anyone and neither should anyone else.
Thank you for your apology and I apologise if I have upset you.
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severus68
Guest
I am not referring to anyone in particular or judging but making a comment that just because someone is an atheist does not make him evil and not all Catholics are good people.
Abortion is sometimes brought in on CAF threads on unrelated topics and it does not make sense, it should be on another thread. I would never agree that what some consider 'immodest dress" to be a topic on the same level of abortion.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Baelor,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.
Authentic Catholic teaching on the issue of modesty has nothing to do with viewing people as an assemblage of body parts or any unhealthy obesession with the same. On the contrary, dear friend, it is rightly concerned with concealing that which should remain hidden, to use the phraseology of the Catechesim of the Catholic Church. Catholic teaching and Sacred Scripture simply acknowledge the reality of concupiscence and man’s propensity to sin owing to his fallen estate, hence the exhortations for women to adorn themselves modestly in seemly apparel. Thus the Church only responds with this teaching to our Western cultures obesession of viewing people as an assemblage of body parts. Clearly, if Catholic modesty teaching operated on the same basis as our decadent Western culture, then that would necessarily mean that it also viewed people as a mere assemblage of body parts, which of course is absurd and incorrect.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
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Portrait
Guest
Dear nickiwool,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Excellent contribution to the debate and may God bless you in your resolve to dress in a modest manner in accordance with Church and bible teaching.
Personal testimony like yours and ubcgirl’s earlier are very much needed in these sexually permissive times and can be much more weighty than a lot of discussion and argument.
Yes, you are quite right, it should be plain common sense that Catholic women adorn themselves modestly and seemly apparel, for our Church has consistently taught indecent attire is unbeffiting of those who profess religious faith. However, dear sister, much of contemporary Catholicism has been deeply influenced by the secular thinking of our times, so that you now have many modern day Catholics asserting that it is society that dictates what is modest or immodest as regards clothing, this irrespective of the fact that Western society is in a dire state of moral and cultural deterioration. In fact if you talk these days about either men or women dressing in modest apparel, then you are like to be dismissed as some fanatical Puritan prude, or at the least of having issues with overscrupulosity. Such is the unspiritual thinking with which we now have to contend with and it is so very sad that some professing Catholics, men and women, have no sense of shame and no pious recoiling from trespassing the boundaries of propriety. Our clothing should be expressive of an interior modesty and chastity and a sober outlook upon life - in other words a Catholic outlook consistent with decency and a proper reserve.
God bless and keep up the good work.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Portrait
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Dear OurBeloved,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your (name removed by moderator)ut above and a warm welcome to the world of CAF, dear friend. John Paul II is frequently misinterpreted by liberal Catholics and his teaching accommodated to their erroneous opinions and very un-Catholic agenda. Thus the above link is very welcome and let us hope that it will be read, marked and inwardly digested.
What is quite apparent, even from the debates on these boards, is that many modern Catholics have an inadequate grasp of basic moral theology because they have very little awareness of concupiscence and the fact that man is fundamentally flawed as a consequence of the Fall. This being the case it is hardly surprising that their viewpoint is off beam and riddiculously idealistic. If we do not reckon with our propensity to sin and the potent strength of evil desire, then we are likely to entertain opinions that are simply not consonant with the consistent teaching of the Church down through the ages.
As a result of concupiscencel man will always be inclined to look on a woman lustfully, hence our Lord’s warning in the Gospel (S. Matt. 5: 28). It is not merely an issue of saddling a woman with a the moral failure of men as regards the custody of their eyes, as some never tire of saying, or of men refusing to face up to the challenge of evil desire. It is not a matter of either/or but rather of both/and with respect to men and women doing their bit to minimise and neutralize the strength of concupisicence and thus counteract its negative impact. It is certainly unfair for men to put all the onus upon women because of their own inexcusable want of eye custody. Undoubtedly, the enflaming of the imagination can be the result of an indiscipline of the eyes. However, if we are not to have a jaundiced view of things, we must also say that any woman who professes religion has a duty, given the reality of evil desire, to so dress as not to be the occasion of unecessary temptation in the opposite sex. Dressing in a decorous manner with due consideration for others, be we a man or a woman, is surely and act of charity as well as a duty.
Much of the debate on modesty in dress is, of course, bound up with much broader issue of sanctity and separation from the godless world. This is the elephant in the room, one might say. On a whole range of issues, many modern Catholics have adopted a sort of ‘Catholicism Lite’ approach and this inevitably leads them to make some rather catastrophic errors of prudential judgment when it comes to issues such as modesty in attire.
God bless and hope that you find your time here profitable and spiritually enriching.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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johnnyjones
Guest
No one has has told anyone what they must wear. I have repeated that over and over. So far you have used incorrect biblical terminology, addressed nothing behind the motive for a woman wearing revealing clothes, misrepresented what I’ve said, and claimed I had no manners.
Your argument that only a man is responsible for what he thinks and does is shamefully weak.
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septimine
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I don’t know how much I worry about what grown men and women wear, but I find it increasingly difficult to find clothes that don’t reveal more than I want to. especially now that it’s getting warmer outside, clothes makers seem to think that hot weather means women want to go around virtually naked.
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Baelor
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I agree. Let us not conflate prematurely authentic Catholic teaching with the content of the posts of anyone on this thread.
Correct, and this is the best way to approach modesty, as something independent of the lust of others. In other words, modesty is a virtue per se, not only because of charity toward others vis-a-vis lust.
But this cannot be the sole justification or even main justification for modesty, else it is conceivable that there are circumstances in which parading around naked is acceptable because it does not promote lust in others. If only heterosexual women existed, would it be morally acceptable for them to walk around naked?
Where does the Church dictate what specifically is modest or immodest? Where are the official guidelines of attire in the CCC?
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