Modesty...

[whatevergirl]

I agree with the poster (forgive me, it’s late…I should be sleeping ) who said that maybe men of other cultures are so used to seeing topless sunbathing women at the beaches where they live, and thus, don’t find a ‘struggle’ with it–although, what they have grown accustomed to is still sinful. That was such an excellent point I must say.

I also wonder frankly, if all men are honest. It takes a lot for a man to tell his wife…‘I was watching the women at the beach today, and I’m struggling with purity now.’ The one poster here (again, sorry I am too tired to scroll up) mentioned that her husband admitted it…and that’s a triple kudos to him…and to their marriage. My dh and I have discussed issues like this, but, tryuly I’m not sure if he has struggled anytime recently with it.

So…just because men don’t admit that they struggle with purity, and say it’s not a big deal to them…doesn’t mean they are not struggling, and might be hesitant to admit it. Just a thought.

Litcrit…I agree somewhat with monica…(I remember your name monica ) that perhaps something deeper is troubling you with this…perhaps, you feel that you shouldn’t be dressing in bikinis or something? I have worn bikinis most of my adult life…but, as of the last I’d say 5 years, when I have grown stronger in my faith, I have ceased to wear them. I truly think the changes to more modest dress, even at the beach, for me–over the years–is definitely Divine Intervention. Perhaps you are feeling that also, as you ask these questions on here?

And also, just recently being diagnosed with a mild form of skin cancer on my face…I want to be more covered up now than ever!

I hope that you find the answers to your question here. God bless.

 

[Sam_Maloney]

Modesty is cultural construct.

Only a few years ago, it was considered immodest for a woman to wear pants in public, or enter a church without covering her head. The culture changed, modesty was redefined.

In cultures where women frequently go topless, the naked breast is devoid of sexual overtones, and therefore not immodest. For this reason, shirtless men in our culture are NOT being immodest, no matter what the burqua brigade might say. May not be tasteful, attractive or appropriate in a given situation, it still isn’t immodest.

But clothing is a form of comminication: even when we aren’t aware of it, we choose our clothing to make a statement. For instance, baggy pants started out as a statement by inner city youth that there was a man at home-- a BIG man-- a caretaker willing to share his clothing.

So we should be aware of the statements our clothing make, and be certain that it coincides with our values and priorities.

By all means, we should dress modestly *for the culture in which we live *but it’s silly to pretend these rules are eternal and unchanging.

 

[dan1el]

Modesty is cultural construct.

Only a few years ago, it was considered immodest for a woman to wear pants in public, or enter a church without covering her head. The culture changed, modesty was redefined.

In cultures where women frequently go topless, the naked breast is devoid of sexual overtones, and therefore not immodest. For this reason, shirtless men in our culture are NOT being immodest, no matter what the burqua brigade might say. May not be tasteful, attractive or appropriate in a given situation, it still isn’t immodest.

But clothing is a form of comminication: even when we aren’t aware of it, we choose our clothing to make a statement. For instance, baggy pants started out as a statement by inner city youth that there was a man at home-- a BIG man-- a caretaker willing to share his clothing.

So we should be aware of the statements our clothing make, and be certain that it coincides with our values and priorities.

By all means, we should dress modestly *for the culture in which we live *but it’s silly to pretend these rules are eternal and unchanging.

This point becomes moot when you no longer live for yourself, but for Christ, where what is done is for the sake of the Gospel, so that it will not be ill-spoken of, and you care because you love Him, not out of a law.
Also, remember that culture does change; but we are told not to conform to it, because we have an eternal society within us to which we are to conform, called the Kingdom of Heaven.

“We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” 1 John 5:19

 

[mizznicole]

Lit -

I think it would be interesting for you (and I’d be interested in what you find out) to look at the history of European fashions and why things are the way they are now.

I guarantee you that 100 years ago there was not topless bathing. So how did that change come about?

In contrast, there are the tribal cultures where the breast is never covered; yet they have their own ideas of modesty as well, and they are probably quite strict (although to us may seem odd).

There are very few things in the Christian faith that are per se malum. Abortion, racism, adultery, etc. For 95% of everything else in the moral life, we need to form our conscience through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It comes down to the nurturing of prudence and charity to help us form judgments.

It might be better for you to consult someone you feel is holy in your own culture than us Americans, since we come to the table with Puritan baggage. It takes us to extremes.

I certainly think there are areas where American culture needs to be purified. Number 1 on my list is understanding the breast as primarily nurturing, and not erotic. That will take time. Making topless beaches more available won’t really do it (although these do exist here. mostly homosexuals visit them, some hippies, a few Europeans.).

Interesting as always.

 

[shannyk]

Interesting to me that all of these threads late, NO ONE has gotten to the crux of this question of modesty. Seems there is quite a misunderstanding of what it truly means, and Litcrit it seems like this is a question God may be asking you to truly and deeply consider, since you do not feel rested with the answers you get here.

Obviously from most of the answers you have gotten in these forums it’s a concept that is far removed from the minds of most American Catholics and a virtue that is dismissed as purely a cultural phenomenon rather than a Divine call to moral excellence that should be striven for as a means of expressing charity to to others, and to ourselves and respects dignity of ourselves and others as temples of the Holy Spirit.

Everyone starts with the custom and normalcy of the outward EXPRESSION of modesty, and works backwards.

 

[monicatholic]

shanny, excellent points.

mizzN,

I guarantee you that 100 years ago there was not topless bathing. So how did that change come about?

In contrast, there are the tribal cultures where the breast is never covered; yet they have their own ideas of modesty as well, and they are probably quite strict (although to us may seem odd).

correct. missionaries will attest that once introduced to Christ, once received of the gifts of the Holy Spirit through baptism, many previously semi-nude and nude cultures will add covering to their cultural style of clothing.

conversely, europe, and the US, too, which are in post-Christian decay have lost a sense of modesty-- have even lost the definition of it. we’ve certainly lost any respect for it. one poster above called the pro-modesty voices the 'burkqa brigade".

 

[dan1el]

shanny, excellent points.

mizzN,

correct. missionaries will attest that once introduced to Christ, once received of the gifts of the Holy Spirit through baptism, many previously semi-nude and nude cultures will add covering to their cultural style of clothing.

conversely, europe, and the US, too, which are in post-Christian decay have lost a sense of modesty-- have even lost the definition of it. we’ve certainly lost any respect for it. one poster above called the pro-modesty voices the 'burkqa brigade".

As a society, perhaps, but everywhere, there are large numbers who refuse to go along with the culture.

 

[monicatholic]

As a society, perhaps, but everywhere, there are large numbers who refuse to go along with the culture.

that would be me and my house (josh. 24: 15) , i guess.