modesty

[nmoerbeek]

Either you are sincere to a fault or extremely misguided to think that YOU are the one to set the criteria to judge anyone, least of all the pope. It is those on the far right of the spectrum who give ordinary Catholics a bad name because of the type of thing that you are doing at this very moment. My comment to you is this; you are not the one to judge who or what goes with or “goes against” Church teaching. Have you ever heard the expression, “more holy than the pope?” It isn’t meant as a compliment.

I suppose then the Pope would be the standard for Christian behavior correct?

I think John Paul the Great would take this all with a grain of sand and great love and humility. He was the first of us amongst sinners as our leader and he would love Daughteroftruth as one of his flock.

So do not feel the need to start a crusade every time someone disagrees with one of his opinions or actions. Seek to instruct why the person should feel otherwise.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

To get back to talking about modesty. I think we are to dress modestly out of charity, so as to not inflame the passions of others since they are to reserve those feelings for their spouses. Since it is good for married people to have those feelings for each other, one doesn’t have to cover up in the same way in private. That isn’t being immodest.

 

[AdriannaJean]

Have you ever heard the expression, “more holy than the pope?” It isn’t meant as a compliment.

This is just me living under a rock here, but I haven’t heard that saying. Would you please tell me what it means? Sorry, off topic, I know…

 

[Shin]

Is there some specific area of modesty in particular you are curious about?

If we’re focusing purely on external modesty, I don’t know what standard there is in private save naturally to be free of vulgarity and unnecessary sensuality… and to respect the weaknesses of one another…

Which brings to mind that the behavior of people alone in private is often immodest, and that when a couple marries they are often exposing each other to this immodest behavior because of the lack of privacy. And this would be something that needs to be overcome, either by a certain maintained level of privacy for the sake of modesty, or by the observance of greater modesty normally when one is alone or in the home together, which should be best in any case. Even in the married life there is a certain level of privacy to be observed because of modesty, no matter how modest each individual is normally – this is not from a lack of intimacy, but from respect and human weakness.

Holiness and sacredness always have a certain barrier around them, a certain amount of separation…

Generally of course there is also the modest respect a woman should have for her husband and his authority, and the man’s need to be modest for the woman’s sake in regards to various matters that the male gender normally is less so…

There are some things further in tradition here… that men and women should have a need of knowing about in marriage… that are more obscure in these times… but I have far more research to do before I can speak particularly about them.

Since marriage is not something anywhere in my immediate future if ever, I haven’t done the research I would and I can’t be as helpful as I’d like to be on this topic.

 

[Timothysis]

This is just me living under a rock here, but I haven’t heard that saying. Would you please tell me what it means? Sorry, off topic, I know…

It surmises the notion of pride minus humility, the idea being that one is smarter, better, greater, more intelligent, more holy than others but, of course, this is not the case except in their own mind.

It can often be found in statements such as this:

"Can you accept the fact that the pope is not perfect and can make mistakes? "

 

[Cluny]

I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but worshipping the Pope is a sin, not to mention it adds fuel to anti-Catholic propaganda. Applying perfection to him - which is what you’re doing by implying I’m wicked for simply *disagreeing *with an *opinion *of his - is putting him on a pedestal that belongs to God Almighty. Also, it’s a lie, and the father of lies is who?

Now, would you like to contribute to the thread’s actual question or would you prefer to continue bashing me?

How many people do you actually know who worship the Pope with the LATREIA owed to God alone? Be as specific as you can in the number.

And no instructed Catholic attributes perfection, that is, impeccability, to him. It is a Protestant slander to say that Catholics do either.

But it is just as dangerous, in the opposite direction, to reject what the pope says out of hand, as you have done in your original posting, especially when he has written on the very subject you’re asking about.

It’s like a 9 year old saying, “What’s 6 times 7? But please, please, please, PLEASE don’t quote the multiplication table or a math teacher.”

 

[EnchantedEve]

It surmises the notion of pride minus humility, the idea being that one is smarter, better, greater, more intelligent, more holy than others but, of course, this is not the case except in their own mind.

It can often be found in statements such as this:

"Can you accept the fact that the pope is not perfect and can make mistakes? "

Sorry, Cluny, but isn’t the saying “more Catholic than the pope?” This seems to make more sense. Obviously, we can name scores of saints were more holy than even more scores of popes.

 

[EnchantedEve]

How many people do you actually know who worship the Pope with the LATREIA owed to God alone? Be as specific as you can in the number.

And no instructed Catholic attributes perfection, that is, impeccability, to him. It is a Protestant slander to say that Catholics do either.

But it is just as dangerous, in the opposite direction, to reject what the pope says out of hand, as you have done in your original posting, especially when he has written on the very subject you’re asking about.

It’s like a 9 year old saying, “What’s 6 times 7? But please, please, please, PLEASE don’t quote the multiplication table or a math teacher.”

I can think on example of where I felt excessive adoration was given to the Pope. In John Paul II’s lifetime I recall them already making statues of him in the manner of saint statues. I know of at least one person who had this on their home altar! If this would not give protestant fuel to burn, I do not know what would.

 

[Jimzz12]

Can *you *accept the fact that the pope is not perfect and can make mistakes? I know he had a lot to deal with and don’t imagine for one second that his job was easy just because he was the pope, but to say he’s perfect is a lie. It’s not a matter of him disagreeing with me, it’s the fact that he went against 2000 of Christian teaching in some (not all) matters. Regarding some of his mistakes I believe that 1) his intentions were noble, and 2)that part of the time he was under duress…a form of cowardice, I’ll call it. We’re all guilty of it at one point or another, I’m no exception. I’m not saying he’s damned for it, I’m not saying he’s evil; I’m just acknowledging certain facts. It would be nice if he, along with all the other bishops of the world (and other Christians, for that matter) were perfect in every way, but that’s simply not the case.

Traditionally… Obedience to the spouse. Never judging them. The spouse has a singular task and that is ensure the attainment of heavenly afterlife for their beloved. The way to do this is live a a Life in Christ, through His Church, in obedience to His Pontiff, the Bridge to Christ. To insist that any encyclical is not Catholic are words spoken in either ill-will of malice, well-intentioned ignorance, or patently evil. We are not to judge others as bad, or even judging others as good. The Pope may be out of his mind, but that is not for us to judge. The Pope may be a saintly man but that is not for us to judge. Our only job is to do what he says as Christ commands in Sacred Scripture. Our pontiff will never stray far from the Narrow Path; we have that assurance from Christ, as it says in Sacred Scripture.

For the traditional point of view let us quote the Church Fathers:

• Obedience to others is the greatest virtue… greater than prayer; greater than almsgiving; greater than fasting.
• In obedience it is no longer the will of the individual but the will of someone else; a first step in living in the accordance with the Will of God.
• In every action of prayer, almsgiving, and fasting the individual wills it, and this is why they are lesser.

An example of being distinctly obedient as quoted from the Fathers:

• Confess sins to a priest in private. It is through this that you go to Heaven.

Honor thy father and mother: From these I would wager that it is always highly commendable to do as authority says for a two-fold reason: It is not your individual will and it represents employing prudence, a gift given by God to His creatures. The gift of prudence is wonderful and beautiful gift. Why shove back in God’s Face, who is Christ Jesus. There is great temptation to claim that Catholics worship the Pope and worship Mary. This song and dance is an old and tattered wedge constantly being driven by the Father of Lies. It is perhaps worth more my saying that if one of us believes a certain action is worship they are deeply mistaken. Worship is the essence of God within you reaching back to Her Creator.

My dog is not my creator, my spouse is not my creator, neither are my children. All of these things pale in comparison with God. To my spouse I give obedience. To my children I give obedience. To my dog, I give a lesser obedience as he depends upon my for survival. To the Pope I give greater obedience than even my children and spouse. I do not give him worship. Let us remember the First Commandment. He speaks with authority is the most trustworthy of all of these. I know no other man who suredly walks with Christ in a Valley of Sorrow. His difficulty is that he cannot remain anonymous, as he surely would rather be without name. Being the Pontiff is a heavy burden. Please, do not let others add to his weighed down shoulders unneccessarily. I know I would not be able to carry the burden without the strength of Christ.

Seeking an answer for anything spiritual, outside of Christ, is deeply offensive to the soul. We therefore must provide obedience to The Theology of the Body, a culmination of thousands of years learnt knowledge of the Creator. It is far more traditional than any other view point on marriage because it is indeed the authorative viewpoint. Any others are simply a vantages without merit.

The discussion here was sidetracked due to egregiousness. But, this is alright as it provided for an opportunity for instruction, in re-discovering our deficiencent understandings. It is always commendable to re-build our thoughts from ground level upward. What is modesty? I’d say modesty is prayer, as prayer is humilifying. Spousal prayer is the most modest thing. If spouses pray together they will remain modest. With confidence being placed in the obedience to authority, the prayer will not be led astray. Confidence will remain as long as we participate in the soul-strengthen aspects of Sacramental Grace; participating in the Sacraments as prescribed by authority and being totally obedient to it decree. This wise saying goes, “Without dogma, there is no spirituality.”

If we wish to remain modesty. Pray to God, as one conjugal, for the gift of modesty. Everything done by a married couple should be conjugal. Even lovemaking is a prayer in this aspect; a powerful and highly ordained form of prayer, not to be trifled. I will not stoop to banality. What is he or she to wear? How should he or she act? Or, how shouldn’t they behave?

 

[Cluny]

I can think on example of where I felt excessive adoration was given to the Pope. In John Paul II’s lifetime I recall them already making statues of him in the manner of saint statues. I know of at least one person who had this on their home altar! If this would not give protestant fuel to burn, I do not know what would.

Note your own words: “…I felt…”

In other words, you don’t really know.

 

[Jimzz12]

Note your own words: “…I felt…”

In other words, you don’t really know.

I’d also say unless it is truly consecrated; it is not an altar. Private devotion to someone who not canonically recognized is not looked down upon. Only in public is devotion to someone not yet pronounced a no-no. This is how saints are made. Out of great faith and devotion, people pray asking someone deceased to pass into Heaven and pray to God for them, in great confidence, that a miracle might be worked. It is a request that should it glorify God, let it be so. If it does not, let it be not so.

If only we had the same modest devotion to our spouses. Modesty in marriage is asking your spouse to pray for you. Hubands have been known to do this; asking their wives who are holy to pray for them. Those wives have become saints.

A quick sampling.
Francesca Romana, Felicity and Perpetua, Agnes, Cecilia, the Empress Helena, Paula, Christina of Markyate, Marie d’Oignes, Angela di Foligno (a favorite of mine), Umilta di Faenza, Princess Birgitta of Sweden, Chiara Gambacorta, and good old Rita di Cascia.

 

[EnchantedEve]

Note your own words: “…I felt…”

In other words, you don’t really know.

Of course, my opinion was asked, not my definitive judgment.

 

[EnchantedEve]

I’d also say unless it is truly consecrated; it is not an altar. Private devotion to someone who not canonically recognized is not looked down upon. Only in public is devotion to someone not yet pronounced a no-no. This is how saints are made. Out of great faith and devotion, people pray asking someone deceased to pass into Heaven and pray to God for them, in great confidence, that a miracle might be worked. It is a request that should it glorify God, let it be so. If it does not, let it be not so.

If only we had the same modest devotion to our spouses. Modesty in marriage is asking your spouse to pray for you. Hubands have been known to do this; asking their wives who are holy to pray for them. Those wives have become saints.

A quick sampling.
Francesca Romana, Felicity and Perpetua, Agnes, Cecilia, the Empress Helena, Paula, Christina of Markyate, Marie d’Oignes, Angela di Foligno (a favorite of mine), Umilta di Faenza, Princess Birgitta of Sweden, Chiara Gambacorta, and good old Rita di Cascia.

I will point out the Holy Father was still alive when they made these statues, not yet dead. I have the same problem when they made Mother Teresa statues when she was still alive. Technically, Church law does not permitt this kind of devotion. People may still do it, but that does not make it approved, or even recommended.

 

[nmoerbeek]

It’s like a 9 year old saying, “What’s 6 times 7? But please, please, please, PLEASE don’t quote the multiplication table or a math teacher.”

I’m glad we can talk about these things as children! For only children will enter the kingdom of God.

Theology of the Body and Christoper west are quoted so frequently that the opinion of them is well known and this is probably why the OP did not want to hear the same information again.

Would it be wrong to ask

What did the early church fathers say about Modesty?
What did the church before 1962 state as modesty before spouses?
Do we understand how married saints behaved in private?

But your metaphor is mean spirited. The multiplication table in this case would be the bible and the Math teacher would be Christ for he is the Good Shepard and the rules are in the bible. The Vicars of Christ hold the keys to the kingdom until Christ returns (maybe they are like substitute teachers same authority but they are not permanently in charge). All she asked was “Don’t quote that one math teacher who is not a saint yet or that moral theologian who uses the material from the guy who is not a saint yet.” That leaves a lot of other math teachers, material and saints to quote from while still satisfying her request. The truth is universal and God did not reveal the rules of married conduct to John Paul II and Christopher West in the 20th century, they have existed through the ages. Being the vicar of Christ the faithful can accept what he taught but it is always alright to ask others for more information out of ignorance.

Remember the OP did not come on and say and condemn Theology of the Body she just wanted other information. Perhaps because she is already familiar with the document.

 

[Cluny]

Of course, my opinion was asked, not my definitive judgment.

I was not asking for an opinion.

I specifically asked for the number of people actually known to the Original Poster (but, ok, anybody else) who actually give the worship of LATREIA to John Paul II.

I did not ask if anyone merely “felt” this was going on.

 

[Cluny]

Remember the OP did not come on and say and condemn Theology of the Body she just wanted other information. Perhaps because she is already familiar with the document.

As a matter of fact, the Original Poster made it clear that she does not feel John Paul II to be Catholic enough.

When asked about similar matters, Patriarch Alexis I of Moscow said, “The priests have been instructed to preach the sanctity of marriage and stay out of the bedroom.”

 

[EnchantedEve]

I was not asking for an opinion.

I specifically asked for the number of people actually known to the Original Poster (but, ok, anybody else) who actually give the worship of LATREIA to John Paul II.

I did not ask if anyone merely “felt” this was going on.

As has been pointed out by others, I cannot definitively judge people’s interior motives. Actions can betray interior attitudes and tendencies, otherwise we would not do them. This is why the Church has traditionally discouraged such practices as abuses of devotion. I am not implying I knew their motives, only that their actions tended in this direction.

 

[nmoerbeek]

As a matter of fact, the Original Poster made it clear that she does not feel John Paul II to be Catholic enough.

When asked about similar matters, Patriarch Alexis I of Moscow said, “The priests have been instructed to preach the sanctity of marriage and stay out of the bedroom.”

I don’t view GK Chesterton as a Saint but he is a great theologian. Just because she does not view him as someone she would want to emulate does not mean she rejects the teaching of Theology of the body.

 

[Cluny]

…Just because she does not view him as someone she would want to emulate does not mean she rejects the teaching of Theology of the body.

It sounds to several of us here, including myself, that this is precisely what she is doing.

What else can her words “PLEASE don’t quote Theology of the Body” in her original posting mean than that she rejects it??

 

[JohnTrueHeart]

Hi Everyone,
I have to agree . Modesty in public is one thing, but in one's home...especially in a home where there are no kids... just lock the doors , pull down the blinds and enjoy each other !!! Besides , it's tough to shower together with your clothes on.. :thumbsup: