Modesty

[SCH]

What do you think about children’s modesty?

 

[plan19]

Modesty as in modest dress, or modesty as in modest action/humility?

 

[Jermosh]

Do you mean children beauty pageants and stuff? Yeah they are a little creepy, but thats me.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Or do you mean moms who allow their little girls to dress like Madonna (or worse) on her worst days.

Or do you mean little boys, age 12, having to need small size condoms because they are sexually active at that age? [Disgusting]

 

[Christian60]

What do you think about children’s modesty?

I was in India with my wife and my son for a vacation. We visited also a friend Indian family that lives a little town in Andhra Pradesh. They have two sons, 5 and 3 years old. Our friends told us that usually the children, at home, wore only the traditional Indian belts, but they would have told the children to wear their shorts if we disliked.
Really we were a little worried for our son (5 years old), but we thought that we should have to respect their custom.
Finally our son played with his mate in the same arrangement.
Perhaps there are not general rules about modesty…

 

[mary1173]

I was in India with my wife and my son for a vacation. We visited also a friend Indian family that lives a little town in Andhra Pradesh. They have two sons, 5 and 3 years old. Our friends told us that usually the children, at home, wore only the traditional Indian belts, but they would have told the children to wear their shorts if we disliked.
Really we were a little worried for our son (5 years old), but we thought that we should have to respect their custom.
Finally our son played with his mate in the same arrangement.
Perhaps there are not general rules about modesty…

Did they insist on your son wearing their customary dress? If not do not feel bad having your son wear his clothes during his playtime with these children. Their custom is not your custom. And you should explain to your son why it is important to adhere to the custom which he was raised in. To wear his clothing while the other boys wore their belts. Ghandi did not expect everyone around the world when he met with them to strip down to a belt and partake of his religious beliefs. In that same reasoning, just because these boys were disrobed and in their belts, does not mean that you should have your son fit into their custom.
Don’t have the mother feel badly about them being in their every day wear, but also explain that in America, Catholics wear outer clothing over top of their under garments and do not strip down to their underwear when they play.
I hope this helps.

 

[Christian60]

Did they insist on your son wearing their customary dress? If not do not feel bad having your son wear his clothes during his playtime with these children. Their custom is not your custom. And you should explain to your son why it is important to adhere to the custom which he was raised in. To wear his clothing while the other boys wore their belts. Ghandi did not expect everyone around the world when he met with them to strip down to a belt and partake of his religious beliefs. In that same reasoning, just because these boys were disrobed and in their belts, does not mean that you should have your son fit into their custom.
Don’t have the mother feel badly about them being in their every day wear, but also explain that in America, Catholics wear outer clothing over top of their under garments and do not strip down to their underwear when they play.
I hope this helps.

Do you know this sort of Indian waist-belts? They are simple laces that don’t cover anything. Our son was playing for ten minutes with his new mates, when he asked for permission to take off his clothing. Later our friends gave him a belt.
We were in India, not in America: “Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more, si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi.”

 

[plan19]

Do you know this sort of Indian waist-belts? They are simple laces that don’t cover anything. Our son was playing for ten minutes with his new mates, when he asked for permission to take off his clothing. Later our friends gave him a belt.
We were in India, not in America: “Si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more, si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi.”

Sorry, but I believe you’re REALLY taking St. Ambrose out of context here. He also said “The Devil tempts that he may ruin and destroy; God tests that He may crown.”

and

“In some causes silence is dangerous.”

We are not called to answer to the customs of the society in which we live. We are called to do as God would have us… which of course, begs following question:

Gen 3:21 “And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.”

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

 

[CFI]

Sorry, but I believe you’re REALLY taking St. Ambrose out of context here. He also said “The Devil tempts that he may ruin and destroy; God tests that He may crown.”

and

“In some causes silence is dangerous.”

We are not called to answer to the customs of the society in which we live. We are called to do as God would have us… which of course, begs following question:

Gen 3:21 “And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.”

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

I don’t think that Genesis 3:21 forbids nudity itself. Isaiah went naked and barefoot for three years by order of God (Isaiah 20:2-3). The King David danced before the ark of the Lord wearing only the ephod, a linen apron (2 Samuel 6:11-23). Peter was naked when he went fishing at Sea of Tiberias (John 21:7).

 

[plan19]

Congratulations, you avoided my question. I didn’t ask if it forbids nudity. I asked why it was that God clothed Adam and Eve. I will ask it again momentarily.

I don’t think that Genesis 3:21 forbids nudity itself. Isaiah went naked and barefoot for three years by order of God (Isaiah 20:2-3).

First of all: God was looking for him to humiliate himself.
Second of all: God was sending a message… do you know what message that would be?

The King David danced before the ark of the Lord wearing only the ephod, a linen apron (2 Samuel 6:11-23).

Here you illustrate a complete lack of understanding. Let’s refer to the source, and a parallel passage from Chronicles to see what he was wearing?

Source passage:
RSV
*2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and **David was girded with a linen ephod. ***

RSV 1 Chronicles 15:27
David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, as also were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and the singers, and Chenani’ah the leader of the music of the singers; and David wore a linen ephod.

Peter was naked when he went fishing at Sea of Tiberias (John 21:7).

No reason was given for the nakedness, although it should be noted that HE WAS ASHAMED of his nakedness. Read the passage:
*Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt [his] fisher’s coat [unto him], (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea. *

Congratulations on owning an electronic bible, or else knowing how to use one on the web.

Word search is great… but only if you have an understanding of the context. Be very careful. This is what’s dangerous about electronic bibles… you can easily come up with a few passages to support your position without having to undertake ANY of the scholarship necessary to understand what it is, exactly, that you are reading.

I suggest you be more careful next time, lest you pervert the message of scripture.

Now I will ask you again:

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

 

[CFI]

Congratulations, you avoided my question. I didn’t ask if it forbids nudity. I asked why it was that God clothed Adam and Eve. I will ask it again momentarily.

First of all: God was looking for him to humiliate himself.
Second of all: God was sending a message… do you know what message that would be?

Here you illustrate a complete lack of understanding. Let’s refer to the source, and a parallel passage from Chronicles to see what he was wearing?

Source passage:
RSV
*2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and **David was girded with a linen ephod. ***

RSV 1 Chronicles 15:27
David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, as also were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and the singers, and Chenani’ah the leader of the music of the singers; and David wore a linen ephod.

No reason was given for the nakedness, although it should be noted that HE WAS ASHAMED of his nakedness. Read the passage:
Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt [his] fisher’s coat [unto him], (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

Congratulations on owning an electronic bible, or else knowing how to use one on the web.

Word search is great… but only if you have an understanding of the context. Be very careful. This is what’s dangerous about electronic bibles… you can easily come up with a few passages to support your position without having to undertake ANY of the scholarship necessary to understand what it is, exactly, that you are reading.

I suggest you be more careful next time, lest you pervert the message of scripture.

Now I will ask you again:

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

You didn’t ask to me about Adam and Eve, but to Christian60, so I didn’t answer to you. Because you are now asking to me, I shall answer.
I see that you have some knowledge of the Holy Writings, so I can be a little bit more direct. I hope you can understand Hebrew and Greek. (Unfortunately I must transliterate in Latin alphabet).
The first element that we need to understand a text is the context. This story has an universal meaning. Since the ancient Greek version of the Bible (LXX) the name of the first man and the first woman were seen as personal name: in Greek Adam and Eua. In the Hebrew text the meaning of the word ’adam is man (human being). The word *hawwah *come from the verb *hayah *(to live). The same LXX translate Genesis 3:20 in this way: *kaì ekálesen Adàm tò ónoma tês gynaikòs autoû Zoè, óti méter pánton tôn zónton *(and Adam gave his wife the name Life, because [she was] the mother of all the living). In this context, also the element of nudity takes a universal meaning: it is the image of the harmony of the creation and the disorder of the sin.
Genesis 3:21 says: wayy‘as YHWH 'eloim le’adam ul’ishto katnot ‘or wayylbishem. These *katnot ‘or *(garment made of skin or garments for the skin) are a solution for the shame.
The true question is what sort of shame had the man and his wife. Nothing can induce us to think that they had a sexual shame. Really there are no example in the Bible that associate the nudity with sexual shame. There are two main reasons about the shame of nudity. Nudity is the condition of the defeat. The example of Isaiah 20 is very clear: “so shall the king of Assyria lead away captives from Egypt, and exiles from Ethiopia, young and old, naked and barefoot, with buttocks uncovered” (20:4). In the same way Paul uses the idea in 2 Corinthians 5:3.
On the other hand the nudity is not opportune for an adult because it is the condition of little children: “you remembered nothing of when you were a girl, stark naked and weltering in your blood” (Ezekiel 16:22).
The text of John 21 become so clearer: Símon oûn Pétros akoúsas óti o kúrios estin tòn ependyten diezósato, ên gàr gymnós. Peter cannot go naked in front of the Lord, but he had no problem to fishing without any clothing.
The problem is not the nudity but the situation.

 

[plan19]

You didn’t ask to me about Adam and Eve, but to Christian60, so I didn’t answer to you. Because you are now asking to me, I shall answer.

This is specious. I didn’t address you in the last post, but you challenged my post nonetheless. As such, if you are going to participate in an adult conversation, please respond to the discussion points made, rather than grasping any opportunity to blindly vomit onto the screen anything that your electronic bible kicks out.

I see that you have some knowledge of the Holy Writings, so I can be a little bit more direct.

microwaving popcorn

I hope you can understand Hebrew and Greek. (Unfortunately I must transliterate in Latin alphabet).

Ohhh… I suppose I might manage.

The first element that we need to understand a text is the context. This story has an universal meaning. Since the ancient Greek version of the Bible (LXX) the name of the first man and the first woman were seen as personal name: in Greek Adam and Eua. In the Hebrew text the meaning of the word ’adam is man (human being). The word *hawwah *come from the verb *hayah *(to live).

Again, you’re so far off the mark that it makes me want to cry.

Genesis, while it may bear a Greek name, was originally written in Hebrew… so in analyzing its bearings, it is ridiculous to start using Greek translations of a Hebrew text. It would make every bit as much sense to use a German translation.

The Hebrew text of Genesis 3:20 is as follows:
**וַיִּקְרָא הָֽאָדָם שֵׁם אִשְׁתֹּו חַוָּה כִּי הִוא הָֽיְתָה אֵם כָּל־חָֽי׃ **
The RSV translation is:
“The man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.”
The important parts?
אדם 'adam (Adam)
חוה Chavvah (Eve)

For the record? 'adam means either man OR adam, based on context. Context is important. So let’s not try and turn Genesis 3:20 into a metaphor-laden post-modern deconstructionist treatise on shame in modern society. That’s ridiculous. You, sir, are being ridiculous.

Just like phone can either mean “the act of placing a phone call” or “an object on which phone calls are received or made”. A word having multiple meanings bears no particular distinction.

You are trying to read into something that means absolutely nothing.

And worse, you are trying to confuse the issue by referring to a translated text rather than a source text.

You should be ashamed.

{I snipped all the greek because it makes as much sense to use a Greek translation here as it does to use a Russian (or Spanish/Dutch/Farsi/etc) translation to determine the meaning of the original text… so it’s completely pointless to answer.}

{Oh, and I snipped the rest because I’ve already answered it. Restating an incorrect assertion, or referring back to it… doesn’t suddenly render it correct.}

I restate my original question to thread participants: Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

 

[PatriceA]

To the original OP, could you please be a little bit more specific on your original question or what you exactly you are looking for in a response?

 

[teachccd]

To the original OP, could you please be a little bit more specific on your original question or what you exactly you are looking for in a response?

What exaclty happened in this thread?

 

[CFI]

I restate my original question to thread participants: Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

It seemed to me that the answer was clear: God clothed Adam and Eve for the shame of their defeat (nothing sexual).

To the original OP, could you please be a little bit more specific on your original question or what you exactly you are looking for in a response?

Children’s modesty is important. The forms can change according the cultures.

 

[Christian60]

It seemed to me that the answer was clear: God clothed Adam and Eve for the shame of their defeat (nothing sexual).

Children’s modesty is important. The forms can change according the cultures.

I didn’t think at this discussion. I only gave an experience that taught me that, in different cultures, there are different ways to look at the life. So now I can say that those Indian children were modest also wearing their belts. Perhaps this is out of our standards, but this is our problem, not their.

Sorry, but I believe you’re REALLY taking St. Ambrose out of context here. He also said “The Devil tempts that he may ruin and destroy; God tests that He may crown.”

and

“In some causes silence is dangerous.”

We are not called to answer to the customs of the society in which we live. We are called to do as God would have us… which of course, begs following question:

Gen 3:21 “And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.”

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

God clothed Adam and Eve for their shame. Those children were not ashamed.

 

[plan19]

I didn’t think at this discussion. I only gave an experience that taught me that, in different cultures, there are different ways to look at the life. So now I can say that those Indian children were modest also wearing their belts. Perhaps this is out of our standards, but this is our problem, not their.

God clothed Adam and Eve for their shame. Those children were not ashamed.

I know of a few arsonists who were not ashamed either. An individual’s not having enough sense to come in out of the cold doesn’t suddenly mean that it isn’t cold.

First Question:
Let’s expand this a little… Why in all of Scripture after the expulsion is nakedness viewed in a negative light?

Let’s view one such example:

Mat 25:34
Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’
Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’

Second question:
Would you approve of your children walking about naked… say… in New York City?
Why, or why not?

 

[plan19]

Specific question for CFI:

How is it that you admit you have no children… but seem to take such a special interest in the idea of children being nude? Should I be concerned?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=364448
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=380138

 

[waterboy]

Would God ever command you to sin?
Isaiah with the buttox showing?

After the sin Eve sewed fig leaf loin cloth, she was still toppless AFTER the sin.
I think we have this warped view of the body. How old can a child be before you stop bathing them, or changing their diaper. The lusting after a women requires more than sight. I beleive that Jesus is talking about a “deep longing for” lust. Not mere sight. That is a little crazy. We have added rules just like the Pharisees.

Where did Jesus bathe? What about baptism, were they nude?

In my opinoin, Adam and Eve were given clothing for protection from the elements not for shame? They were the only two people on the planet, it does not make sense to be ashamed of the body, does it? They were ashamed of their disobedience and hiding in the bushes.

"You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And love your neighbor as yourself.
I don’t get offended when I see myself in the mirror naked. Should I be offended of my naked neighbor. Clothe people out of their necessity not your’s.

You see a naked human about to die, do you save his soul or your eyes?

 

[Christian60]

First Question:
Let’s expand this a little… Why in all of Scripture after the expulsion is nakedness viewed in a negative light?

It seems to me a cultural matter.

Second question:
Would you approve of your children walking about naked… say… in New York City?
Why, or why not?

No, I wouldn’t. Where the public nakedness is out of the culture (expecially in western culture) to be naked becomes immodest.
(However, until early 20th century, the boys swam naked at East River).