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MormonHero
Guest
Food for thought.
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SonCatcher
Guest
Amazing he can get it right when he basically repeats what Paul said.[BIBLEDRB]Romans 13:8[/BIBLEDRB]
Also, several OT writers:[BIBLEDRB]Leviticus 25:36-37[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Exodus 22:25[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 23:19[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Nehemiah 5:7-11[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 18:8-13[/BIBLEDRB]
Also, several OT writers:[BIBLEDRB]Leviticus 25:36-37[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Exodus 22:25[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 23:19[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Nehemiah 5:7-11[/BIBLEDRB][BIBLEDRB]Ezekiel 18:8-13[/BIBLEDRB]
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
lots of problems here, first since this is third hand (poster, columnist, Mohammad) lets not assess who says what. So some issues are:
- They (followers is Islam) choose to live in our society not the other way around
- There is a reference to things never to be delivered which directly clashes with insurance, interest, and debts.
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GerardMajella
Guest
There is a difference between usury, which means money lent at high rates of interest, and traditional lending. There is a place in society for traditional, normative lending. There is no place for usury.
Examples: Lending to businesses for commercial real estate, inventory, equipment acquisitions, raw land, etc. These kinds of commercial loans allow businesses to thrive and grow, and hire more workers. The benefits of ownership and productive use of assets far outweighs the nominal amount of interest paid.
Lenders are entitled to a fair rate of interest for the risk that they take in any lending facility. Borrowers don’t always repay, and the lender loses their investment.
Lenders, however, are not entitled to exorbitant interest rates charged especially to the poor. Payday loans, some types of credit cards, title pawn loans, etc. all fall into this category.
There is a significant difference between usurious rates, and traditional lending rates used throughout commerce.
Insurance, too, has its proper role in a functioning society. Insurance protects people from tragic loss, such as the untimely death of the breadwinner of the family. The nominal payments made for a life insurance policy far outweigh the risks involved with the loss of life of said breadwinner. Without life insurance, a family could easily be rendered destitute in the event of the untimely passing of the breadwinner of the family. The same line of thinking can be applied to property insurance, car insurance, medical insurance, etc.
If, on the other hand, an insurance company wrongfully and illegally denies legitimate claims, or charges exorbitant rates to the poor, then this would fall under the same class as usury.
Examples: Lending to businesses for commercial real estate, inventory, equipment acquisitions, raw land, etc. These kinds of commercial loans allow businesses to thrive and grow, and hire more workers. The benefits of ownership and productive use of assets far outweighs the nominal amount of interest paid.
Lenders are entitled to a fair rate of interest for the risk that they take in any lending facility. Borrowers don’t always repay, and the lender loses their investment.
Lenders, however, are not entitled to exorbitant interest rates charged especially to the poor. Payday loans, some types of credit cards, title pawn loans, etc. all fall into this category.
There is a significant difference between usurious rates, and traditional lending rates used throughout commerce.
Insurance, too, has its proper role in a functioning society. Insurance protects people from tragic loss, such as the untimely death of the breadwinner of the family. The nominal payments made for a life insurance policy far outweigh the risks involved with the loss of life of said breadwinner. Without life insurance, a family could easily be rendered destitute in the event of the untimely passing of the breadwinner of the family. The same line of thinking can be applied to property insurance, car insurance, medical insurance, etc.
If, on the other hand, an insurance company wrongfully and illegally denies legitimate claims, or charges exorbitant rates to the poor, then this would fall under the same class as usury.
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KathleenGee
Guest
The Catholic Church has always condemned usury…the exploitation of a person in need using interest…but as Gerard stated here, there is legitimate interest use in business financial world.
The Church’s social teachings also instruct in the area of economics…‘Centissimus Annus’ authored by John Paul II is excellent reading. John Paul in the end stated the best was a free economy in a democratic society was the best system…and the state a servant to the people.
The Church’s social teachings also instruct in the area of economics…‘Centissimus Annus’ authored by John Paul II is excellent reading. John Paul in the end stated the best was a free economy in a democratic society was the best system…and the state a servant to the people.
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SonCatcher
Guest
I was merely pointing out that Mohammad was repeating a principle from Christian scriptures. I was not condemning honest business.
A lot of people perceive some principle from another religion as something lacking in ours. Yet, if they took the time to understand Christian teaching, they would recognize the same principle here. Frequently taught more perfectly.
A lot of people perceive some principle from another religion as something lacking in ours. Yet, if they took the time to understand Christian teaching, they would recognize the same principle here. Frequently taught more perfectly.
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Kaninchen
Guest
How can one not be overwhelmed by the success of Muslim economics?
Err?
Err?
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scipio337
Guest
Alright, that did make me laugh!
There are a handful of bank who adhere to “Islamic finance” in the US. It’s a foriegn concept for me, to say the least, and is pretty similar to regular finance, with some irrational twists thrown in to conform to Islamic standards.
For example, for an “Islamic” mortgage, the bank buys the property, then “leases” it to you, with a service fee. There is no “interest”, but you still have the “service fee” of having the lease payments processed, etc. At the end of the term, the individual has the option of buying the property (pretty much for free).
6 in one hand, 1/2 a dozen in the other.
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sedonaman
Guest
In our system, money doesn’t exist until it is borrowed.
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wwolverine
Guest
Islamic Finance. What is it? is it an interest free banking? Do they survive only on the service fees? than how do they pay the salaries to the employees working in these banks? Do they invest the money deposited for no gain?
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MugenOne
Guest
If you do the math, Islamic financing is more expensive than traditional kaffir only interest rate system. Here in Iraq, “Islamic” banks’ are financing at the rates that equal to about 18-20%. That’s usury.
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MugenOne
Guest
Yes, how Dubai is working out for y’all? It is nothing but a desert mirage.
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swariffin
Guest
In Sharia Bank, there is no interest bearing. But, there is profit sharing. The percentage of the profit sharing must be agreed beforehand. Those who lend the money should receive the share of the profit first, such as a preferred stockholder.
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swariffin
Guest
That is not usury if the saving rate is 30% and the financing rate is 18-20%. Question is, if there is a good bank who give interest for my saving account for 30%, please let me know.
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sedonaman
Guest
The following is a re-post from a different thread, but it is on topic:
This fractional system was invented/discovered sometime in Europe around the time that capitalism was emerging. People would deposit their gold with gold merchants and receive redeemable CDs. The merchants noticed that they didn’t have to keep all the gold on hand all the time and loaned some of it out and charged interest.
The point is that this fractional reserve fuels our economy and enables us to prosper. Of course it is not without problems, but what human endeavor isn’t?
The question I have about Sharia finance is, how does money get created under it? Based on what I’ve read here, I conclude that it appears it must already exist before it can be “borrowed”. Anyone have an answer?
This is correct. In the congressional hearings to investigate the causes of the Great Depression, members of the committee were astounded when one witness from the Federal Reserve testified that, “money doesn’t exist until it is borrowed.” To illustrate how this is true, consider that the money supply represents the the store of value of the goods and services produced by the nation, and you deposit $100 in a bank, and the bank credits your account with $100. Say further that it is the money supply in this example. Under our fractional reserve system, the bank can loan out a major portion of it, but must hold back a fraction, say 25%. I want to borrow $75, so the bank loans me your $75 and credits my account with $75. Now the total money supply is $175. Where did the other $75 come from? It represents the goods and services I will produce in the future and repay the bank; IOW, money is moved from the future to the present.
This fractional system was invented/discovered sometime in Europe around the time that capitalism was emerging. People would deposit their gold with gold merchants and receive redeemable CDs. The merchants noticed that they didn’t have to keep all the gold on hand all the time and loaned some of it out and charged interest.
The point is that this fractional reserve fuels our economy and enables us to prosper. Of course it is not without problems, but what human endeavor isn’t?
The question I have about Sharia finance is, how does money get created under it? Based on what I’ve read here, I conclude that it appears it must already exist before it can be “borrowed”. Anyone have an answer?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Credit is all based on the worth of you. Your credibility…your ability to work and pay off debts.
We have a mortgage, it is fragmented 17 times…and if we stay with a 30 year loan to pay it off, the bank gets about 1.3 million dollars out of our contract…not from us…but through the process of fragmentation…
For every check written through a bank, the federal government pays the bank a fee…
very complex system…
What is bad now is the computerization of finance where transacations are done in miliseconds…how can anybody regulate it?
We have a mortgage, it is fragmented 17 times…and if we stay with a 30 year loan to pay it off, the bank gets about 1.3 million dollars out of our contract…not from us…but through the process of fragmentation…
For every check written through a bank, the federal government pays the bank a fee…
very complex system…
What is bad now is the computerization of finance where transacations are done in miliseconds…how can anybody regulate it?
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
The OP provided a link to an article by Roger Scruton, an English philosopher and opinion writer who publishes on both sides of the Atlantic and on both sides of a controversial issue at times. In featured article, Mr. Scruton seems to advocate Islamic banking, aka sharia (compliant) financing, which England embraced, along with sharia law, as demanded by its Muslim population.
Note the unfavorable reaction to Mr. Scruton’s article by the initial poster named Polistra, who is likely from England:
*All the Abrahamic religions advise against debt and usury. Mohammed’s version takes it farther, prohibiting all interest.
The problem with your suggestion is that we HAVE been following Mohammed for the last decade. We’ve been operating with essentially zero interest, and that’s a major cause of our current difficulties.
When interest rates are uncontrolled, they serve as the critical feedback path between users of money. Saving is encouraged, borrowing is discouraged, and the relative risk of any investment is signaled with some accuracy. Our current Islamic arrangement loses all of those qualities.
When interest is forced to zero, banks have no reason to invite savings, and borrowers have no reason to be careful. Only the rich and well-connected benefit from this arrangement, just as in Arabian lands.*
Usurious, unbridled capitalism and materialism for immoral ends are unapalatable in Judeo-Christian tradition, which Mohammed and the related hadith simply parroted. As St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, avarice is a sin against God, in as much as man condemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things.
We in the U.S. should not emulate England and countries in Europe who look to Islamic banking. Yes, we are in the throes of a world financial crisis. But Islamic banking is not a good option as it is dangerous to our security and promotes sharia law. See and hear this.
It would seem that the long hard road back is growing the economy the old fashioned way with a government that supports strong job creation, and back-to-the-basics sound lending practices. Is anybody surprised that the housing bubble burst? With unscrupulous lenders and unworthy borrowers, the end was just a matter of when, and not if.
We paid dearly for this sin of excess.
Note the unfavorable reaction to Mr. Scruton’s article by the initial poster named Polistra, who is likely from England:
*All the Abrahamic religions advise against debt and usury. Mohammed’s version takes it farther, prohibiting all interest.
The problem with your suggestion is that we HAVE been following Mohammed for the last decade. We’ve been operating with essentially zero interest, and that’s a major cause of our current difficulties.
When interest rates are uncontrolled, they serve as the critical feedback path between users of money. Saving is encouraged, borrowing is discouraged, and the relative risk of any investment is signaled with some accuracy. Our current Islamic arrangement loses all of those qualities.
When interest is forced to zero, banks have no reason to invite savings, and borrowers have no reason to be careful. Only the rich and well-connected benefit from this arrangement, just as in Arabian lands.*
Usurious, unbridled capitalism and materialism for immoral ends are unapalatable in Judeo-Christian tradition, which Mohammed and the related hadith simply parroted. As St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, avarice is a sin against God, in as much as man condemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things.
We in the U.S. should not emulate England and countries in Europe who look to Islamic banking. Yes, we are in the throes of a world financial crisis. But Islamic banking is not a good option as it is dangerous to our security and promotes sharia law. See and hear this.
It would seem that the long hard road back is growing the economy the old fashioned way with a government that supports strong job creation, and back-to-the-basics sound lending practices. Is anybody surprised that the housing bubble burst? With unscrupulous lenders and unworthy borrowers, the end was just a matter of when, and not if.
We paid dearly for this sin of excess.
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KathleenGee
Guest
InSearchofGrace,
Thanks for your insightful post. I think the mistake our country made was back under President Woodrow Wilson in signing up our country to remove the appropriation of taxypayer dollars and place its management and control to the international banking system.
It is aspects of this system that is deliberately working against Judeo-Christian values in our country and making a strange alliance in protecting Muslim interests in England and elsewhere.
A commentator called these people ‘transnationalists’…people without countries…they are here, very powerful, and that is why you have those in power indifferent to our nation’s identity and its sovereignty. It is part of these forces working to remove the crucifixes from the public rooms in Italy.
John Paul II was anti-Western economies when he first was elected pope…In time he came to the conclusion that the best economic system was the free market in a democracy. And the Catholic Church is the moral voice to protect the dignity of mankind…The state exists to serve us, not we serving them.
People here should study Catholic social doctrine. There was a false statement coming out stating the Vatican was supporting Sharia Law. It was put out by a Muslim and people took it as truth.
A good read is "Centisimus Annus’. Really, it is a must read and want my grown children to read it. Hopefully, we are approaching the height of money and power…as a priest used this term, ‘the infection is coming to a head, so God can lance it’. My youngest son told me the other night he wants to work to restore our country. I told him to transfer to the Catholic university here and study morality and social ethics.
Thanks for your insightful post. I think the mistake our country made was back under President Woodrow Wilson in signing up our country to remove the appropriation of taxypayer dollars and place its management and control to the international banking system.
It is aspects of this system that is deliberately working against Judeo-Christian values in our country and making a strange alliance in protecting Muslim interests in England and elsewhere.
A commentator called these people ‘transnationalists’…people without countries…they are here, very powerful, and that is why you have those in power indifferent to our nation’s identity and its sovereignty. It is part of these forces working to remove the crucifixes from the public rooms in Italy.
John Paul II was anti-Western economies when he first was elected pope…In time he came to the conclusion that the best economic system was the free market in a democracy. And the Catholic Church is the moral voice to protect the dignity of mankind…The state exists to serve us, not we serving them.
People here should study Catholic social doctrine. There was a false statement coming out stating the Vatican was supporting Sharia Law. It was put out by a Muslim and people took it as truth.
A good read is "Centisimus Annus’. Really, it is a must read and want my grown children to read it. Hopefully, we are approaching the height of money and power…as a priest used this term, ‘the infection is coming to a head, so God can lance it’. My youngest son told me the other night he wants to work to restore our country. I told him to transfer to the Catholic university here and study morality and social ethics.
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