M
Montalban
Guest
If only it were that simple. They’re already twisted into thinking that everything he did was okay, because why else would their god pick him to deliver the message.
Where’d LilyM go?
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Where’d LilyM go?
C
cor
Guest
Regardless of whether we accept Mary’s age as 12 from the Provevangelium of James, we have what was not too long ago the law of the Catholic Church:
newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm
“The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females”
Today it has been raised universally (both East and West) to sixteen and fourteen. In some nations (not the US however) it may be higher due to the action of the national bishops’ conference. Particular Eastern Churches may set it higher as well.
I have a recollection of that in the Eastern Church (I’m not sure if this was the part that remained united with Rome or that split or if it was before the split) the age for women used to be even younger than 12 – but my recollection is not certain and I have been unable to verify it online with google. I could find no information on the history of the law for the Eastern Church online (today as I said above it is sixteen and fourteen universally with each particular Eastern Church able to set it higher if they choose)
newadvent.org/cathen/01206c.htm
“The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females”
Today it has been raised universally (both East and West) to sixteen and fourteen. In some nations (not the US however) it may be higher due to the action of the national bishops’ conference. Particular Eastern Churches may set it higher as well.
I have a recollection of that in the Eastern Church (I’m not sure if this was the part that remained united with Rome or that split or if it was before the split) the age for women used to be even younger than 12 – but my recollection is not certain and I have been unable to verify it online with google. I could find no information on the history of the law for the Eastern Church online (today as I said above it is sixteen and fourteen universally with each particular Eastern Church able to set it higher if they choose)
K
kellie
Guest
I have been following LilyM’s argument, and have to say that I agree with what she has said.
The age of Muhammed is irrelevant.
If he was 20, and Aisha was 9, the situation is still as bad as if he was 50, and she was 9.
It is Aisha’s age that is deplorable.
Bringing the age of Muhammed into it, seems to suggest that “old” men are to be condemned for marrying 9 year old girls, when in fact that isn’t the argument at all. Nobody should be allowed to marry 9 year old girls
LilyM brought the age of Joseph into the argument just to show that if it is true that Joseph was 90 when married to Mary, who we assume was 14-16, we don’t seem to think of Joseph as a “dirty old man”, therefore, bringing Muhammed’s age into the argument is pointless, unless it is to make him seem like a “dirty old man”.
The age of Muhammed is irrelevant.
If he was 20, and Aisha was 9, the situation is still as bad as if he was 50, and she was 9.
It is Aisha’s age that is deplorable.
Bringing the age of Muhammed into it, seems to suggest that “old” men are to be condemned for marrying 9 year old girls, when in fact that isn’t the argument at all. Nobody should be allowed to marry 9 year old girls
LilyM brought the age of Joseph into the argument just to show that if it is true that Joseph was 90 when married to Mary, who we assume was 14-16, we don’t seem to think of Joseph as a “dirty old man”, therefore, bringing Muhammed’s age into the argument is pointless, unless it is to make him seem like a “dirty old man”.
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eliasaph99
Guest
Except that Mohammed selected his nine year old wife when she was six. He found her attractive at that age. He also married her with the full intent of having sex with her and did have sex with her.
If we refer to the Protoevangelium of James and use that as a reference, we see that Joseph did not seek out Mary. Instead, Joseph was selected miraculously by God. (I think that we can be sure of this from the Gospels, although not necessarily the other parts of the story in Proto.) He never intended to have sex with her and did not have sex with her. His marriage to Mary was an exception to the norm done for exceptional circumstances.
So Mohammed was a dirty old man who found himself a six year old that he was sexually attracted to.
Joseph was a man who performed the duty requested of him by God and the Temple.
Very different.
See my earlier post also.
D
dranzal
Guest
I read through this thread and decided to ask my brother, who is Muslim and prides himself on his studies of Islam, whether the hadith is true or not. This is his response. I am Latin Catholic,BTW. I will not at this time offer my opinion on the matter as it has been argued to death.
To my brother, I hope you don’t mind my pasting this here.
The ONLY people who do not accept those ahaadeeth (narrations/statements) are those who are either (1) ignorant of the religion of Al-Islaam or (2) those who do not follow the sunnah (ie. they reject all ahaadeeth and as such, are not Muslim in the first place)
Bottom line, yes, those narrations are correct that 'Aaisha was indeed married to Muhammad, sallalllaahu 'alayhe wa sallam, when she was 6, and the marriage was not consumated until her menstrul cycle began, which was at 9.
Many ignorant Muslims, raised in today’s society, listening what today’s immoral society tells them about ethics and morals, feel shy to admit the aforementioned truth. They feel shy to admit that “their prophet” had sex with a nine year old. And as such, they try to run and hide in a corner, and end up digging a hole for themselves.
The reality is from the many authentic narrations that the marriage was consumated at nine after her cycle began, and this was not an uncommon practice among the people at that time, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or Sabians, or whatever. In society, we tend to look at two signs of adulthood (for a woman that is): (1) menstrual cycle, and (2) maturity. In the past, these two events often coincided, perhaps for a variety of reasons, not excluding smaller lifespan, and the hardship of the life at the time. Regrettfully, society has changed a lot even in the past 100 years, where many 18 year olds, who by society’s"standard" are supposed to be adults, still act like children. And as such, parents of those individuals would not want them to be married at 18, not at 22, and maybe not even at 26, as they still need to “grow up” mentally. We can simply (of course in general) look at the maturity level of a typical 15 year old or even 12 year old and compare that to similar ages perhaps 80 years ago. Surely all would agree that, in general, a 12 year old, living during the 1920s was much more mature, again perhaps not by choice, but perhaps by the very nature of the harder times he/she lived in. But nevertheless, he/she was, in general, much more mature. So then, what about an 8 year old, 9 year old, or 10 year old, living over a thousand years ago when the lifespan was, in general, perhaps 30 years, on average, shorter?
Critics of 'Aaisha’s marriage look for anything to criticize, and surely, by today’s standard’s, it is probably rare that a nine year old could have a successfull marriage of any sort. But obviously, our times are significantly different from those 1600 years ago, and 2000 years ago, as you know very well the oft young ages of women married in Christianity.
To my brother, I hope you don’t mind my pasting this here.
The ONLY people who do not accept those ahaadeeth (narrations/statements) are those who are either (1) ignorant of the religion of Al-Islaam or (2) those who do not follow the sunnah (ie. they reject all ahaadeeth and as such, are not Muslim in the first place)
Bottom line, yes, those narrations are correct that 'Aaisha was indeed married to Muhammad, sallalllaahu 'alayhe wa sallam, when she was 6, and the marriage was not consumated until her menstrul cycle began, which was at 9.
Many ignorant Muslims, raised in today’s society, listening what today’s immoral society tells them about ethics and morals, feel shy to admit the aforementioned truth. They feel shy to admit that “their prophet” had sex with a nine year old. And as such, they try to run and hide in a corner, and end up digging a hole for themselves.
The reality is from the many authentic narrations that the marriage was consumated at nine after her cycle began, and this was not an uncommon practice among the people at that time, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or Sabians, or whatever. In society, we tend to look at two signs of adulthood (for a woman that is): (1) menstrual cycle, and (2) maturity. In the past, these two events often coincided, perhaps for a variety of reasons, not excluding smaller lifespan, and the hardship of the life at the time. Regrettfully, society has changed a lot even in the past 100 years, where many 18 year olds, who by society’s"standard" are supposed to be adults, still act like children. And as such, parents of those individuals would not want them to be married at 18, not at 22, and maybe not even at 26, as they still need to “grow up” mentally. We can simply (of course in general) look at the maturity level of a typical 15 year old or even 12 year old and compare that to similar ages perhaps 80 years ago. Surely all would agree that, in general, a 12 year old, living during the 1920s was much more mature, again perhaps not by choice, but perhaps by the very nature of the harder times he/she lived in. But nevertheless, he/she was, in general, much more mature. So then, what about an 8 year old, 9 year old, or 10 year old, living over a thousand years ago when the lifespan was, in general, perhaps 30 years, on average, shorter?
Critics of 'Aaisha’s marriage look for anything to criticize, and surely, by today’s standard’s, it is probably rare that a nine year old could have a successfull marriage of any sort. But obviously, our times are significantly different from those 1600 years ago, and 2000 years ago, as you know very well the oft young ages of women married in Christianity.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
What a cop-out!!!
It ignores the central point, that “Muhammad” is held up as the perfect example for mankind for all time, shows ignorance of human development and ignores the fact of sexual attraction to children and sexual abuse of “Muhammad”.
It ignores the central point, that “Muhammad” is held up as the perfect example for mankind for all time, shows ignorance of human development and ignores the fact of sexual attraction to children and sexual abuse of “Muhammad”.
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Oh no, not the ‘life expectancy was 30 years back then’ excuse.
All the companions and wives of Muhammad lived past 30 - in many cases in old age. This excuse is simply untenable, especially for an old man (50+) to marry a 6 year old child. Two children marrying - yes, but not a man old enough to be her grandfather.
All the companions and wives of Muhammad lived past 30 - in many cases in old age. This excuse is simply untenable, especially for an old man (50+) to marry a 6 year old child. Two children marrying - yes, but not a man old enough to be her grandfather.
C
ChristIsTheWay
Guest
I agree. People make way too much out “life expectancy” figures. There are too many variables in every time and place. And people forget that such low life expectancy often arose because of children dying of diseases we regularly cure today. If one made it to young adulthood, their life expectancy would probably rise significantly.
F
famdigy
Guest
Obviously history is not your strong point.
The prophet Muhammad (SAWS) did not select Aisha for marriage. It was her father Abu Bakr, a companion of the prophet who approached him with the proposition of marrying his daughter.
other companions such as Omar also offered their daughters in marriage to the prophet. no where did the prophet or Aisha say he found her attractive and married for sex. The prophet had an important mission to accomplish and that is to spread God’s religion among his family, the pagan mekkans and then to the world.
whenever you want to examine the prophet’s relationships, they are divided into 3 categories
- 0-25
- 25-51
- 51-63
between 25-51, he married only 1 woman. Her name was Khadija (as). In a society where you can get married to 2,4,16…as many as you want, he was only married to 1 woman for 26 years until she passed away.
from 51-63 He married the rest of the 9 or 10 wives that are narrated in the ahadeeth. You will also find that with each one he married for a reason and there are three reasons.
- to introduce a law into Islam
- for political reasons
- the women were widows
Introducing a law into Islam
the prophet’s marriage to Zaynab
Zaynab the prophet’s cousin was married to Zaid whom the prophet took as an adopted son. Zaid and Zainab couldn’t get along and got divorced. In arabia, your adopted son is viewed as your real son and as such you can not marry the x-wife of your real son. In the Quran the prophet was ordered to marry Zainab so we remove this idea that your adopted son is like your real son from sharia.
Political marriages
Because he is the Messenger of God, he doesn’t think about his own emotions he thinks about the message of God. One of the political marriages is his marriage to Juairiyah. Juairiyah was from the tribe of banu Mustalaq and the daughter of their leader, they were enemies of Islam and eventually the Prophet of Islam defeated them and asked for her hand in marriage. This marriage served two purposes.
- her father would not seek revenge because now the prophet is part of his family and is considered one of their tribesmen.
- it becomes easier for the tribes to accept the teachings of islam because this is no longer a stranger preaching about a religion, it is one of their tribesmen. The point here is to remove political tension from the tribes and to bring them together
widowed women
The third group of women the prophet married were widows who didn’t have anyone to take care of them. Hafsa the daughter of Omar was a widowed woman and Omar approached the prophet asking him to marry her as no one wants her. Umm Salama was a widow, sauda was a widdow. These are older women whom nobody had wanted, whom were not beautiful and many whom were very old.
so there was one group of marriages for legal reasons, another for political and a third women whom had no one to look after them.
now you may ask why a girl of 9 years old?
as I said earlier, the narrator of this hadith Hisham ibn Urwah was known to be a liar. you may say that the hadith was also narriated by other people making this story corroboratred (mutawatir) however, I have not seen the other hadiths by other narrators and i am sure they are not in any authentic books so I wonder how reliable they are.
The prophet’s mission was a successful one in that in 23 years he was able to bring an entire nation of idol worshiping warring divided tribes to unite together under islam. Marriage was one of the many methods he employed to bring people to the religion.
E
eliasaph99
Guest
You’re arguing semantics. Fine, Abu Bakr brought her. (Although I’m not sure your correct. You have cited no sources.) Mohammed approved of it. He found her attractive at six. He consummated the marriage as soon as he could convince people that it was OK to have sex with her. In fact, he was so impatient, that he consummated the marriage in her parents house. Here is the quote from Aisha stating that this is so:
Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”
What an honorable guy, huh? He married a child and then had sex with her in her parents home. I know that I hope I live in a society where that’s acceptable. What a wonderful event!
For goodness sake. Do you even think about what you’re buying into?
Here’s a good question for you Famdigy. Would you marry a six year old and then have sex with her at nine years old?
R
Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
WRONG. Obviously history is not your strong point.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18:
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said “But I am your brother.” The Prophet said, “You are my brother in Allah’s religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry.”
What does “THE PROPHET ASKED ABU BAKR FOR AISHA’S HAND IN MARRIAGE” mean?
Notice how Abu Bakr baulked at the suggestion. Does that suggest it was he who offered his daughter to Mo?
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
I must add some clarification about demographics here
when the life expectancy is low eg 30, that does not mean that people live to 30 then drop dead! why would they - 30 is the prime of life?
no, what that means is that child mortality is high - a more meaningful statistic would be life expectancy from the age of 18 say
as for arguing that a life expectancy of 30 means you have to marry at 6 and have sex at 8, that shows a sad ignorance of human development
when the life expectancy is low eg 30, that does not mean that people live to 30 then drop dead! why would they - 30 is the prime of life?
no, what that means is that child mortality is high - a more meaningful statistic would be life expectancy from the age of 18 say
as for arguing that a life expectancy of 30 means you have to marry at 6 and have sex at 8, that shows a sad ignorance of human development
F
famdigy
Guest
I have a job interview to prepare for today but I reply to this thread soon.
M
Montalban
Guest
There’s no evidence that she had begun her menstural cycle. She was still a ‘child’ mentally, because she was called to be his wife when still playing with her dolls.
Book 008, Number 3311:
'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3311
Here’s what you should do
a) show Islamic evidence that Aisha was mensturating
b) show any evidence that when a girl BEGINS puberty she’s instantly mentally and emotionally mature - because that’s what’s being said by your apologist.
M
Montalban
Guest
Muhammed boasted about how he could have sex with all his wives, even in one night
Muhammed’s reasons for marriage was not about politics - ‘protecting’ the women by taking them into his household…
Anas bin Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) had said: “The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I said to Anas: “Had the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) the strength for doing this?” Anas said: “We used to narrate that the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) was given the strength of thirty (men).”
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 6:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet I used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.006
and
answeringinfidels.com/content/view/73/42/#_edn15
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/005.sbt.html#001.005.268
M
Montalban
Guest
Strangely enough I had one too!
M
Montalban
Guest
Indeed. She was still a child. She was playing on swings and with her dolls.Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”
What an honorable guy, huh? He married a child and then had sex with her in her parents home. I know that I hope I live in a society where that’s acceptable. What a wonderful event!
For goodness sake. Do you even think about what you’re buying into?
Here’s a good question for you Famdigy. Would you marry a six year old and then have sex with her at nine years old?
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