Mohammed and false Apparitions

[Khalid]

Hi Pumpkinseed, do you think that we’ll have to put Jews also in this bracket too?

MJ

In a sense, yes, but also no, because, unlike Mohammedans, who have always had a false religion with no recognition from nor source in God, the Jews did have a true covenant, and the first covenant, a valid religion granted to them by YHWH God, to be a light unto the world and prepare it for the gospel. The religion was valid - nay, it was the only valid religion on the face of the earth for 1,500 years - either until Jesus Christ died, or until the Temple fell in 70AD (I’m inclined to think the latter), after which the Old Testament religion died (more correctly, it was filled, and lives on in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church which propagates the sacrifices necessary - the infinite sacrifice of the Mass) and Rabbinic Judaism was born.

 

[Marybeloved]

“You can truly say that nothing written in that passage is incorrect, but only because there’s nothing of any actual substance written there to begin with. It’s a lot of diplomatic sophistry.”

Please tell me how your response was designed to defend the above statement, or in any way refute the portion of my comment that you bolded.

I wasn’t defending the statement you’ve quoted there. I was meaning to correct the misunderstanding I perceived in your statement regarding what is/isn’t doctrine. Your statement seemed to imply that the statement about what Muslims believe in the CCC is catholic Doctrine, that’s all I sought to correct (not “refute”, by the way, as I wasn’t debating. Sorry if it came off that way)

 

[Khalid]

The most misinterpreted section of the entire Catechism, alongside “invincible ignorance”. That was ripped out of the necessary context of Nostra aetate where it first was found, and put in the middle of unrelated catechistics. Essentially, “The Muslims don’t know what they worship, but they direct worship to ‘the Creator’, and, as there is only one Creator, all who worship the Creator worship the same one we do, with varying degrees of knowledge, all seen in smoke and shadows as in a mirror darkly.” (As the Muslims conceive of the Creator as Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, or any other theists would conceive of Satan or a high demon, if Satan was given the attribute of eternity.)

 

[Khalid]

If he Mohammed claimed to see an angel, it may very well have been a bad angel. They are all too willing to deceive people.

It could have also been schizophrenia [or some kind of epileptic disorder] or delusions. In any case, it was not of God.

You summarized all of the verbosity very well.

“Even Satan may appear as an angel of light…I tell you, if a man preaches another gospel to you, even if an angel from heaven preaches another gospel to you, he is damned.”

 

[Marybeloved]

I just read your conversion story. Beautiful - I think you should write a book!!

Thanks a lot for your compliment. I’m really surprised that people have responded so positively to it, even complimenting me through Pm.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Thanks a lot for your compliment. I’m really surprised that people have responded so positively to it, even complimenting me through Pm.

Mary, I’m glad you found the truth. I hope your story will guide others to Jesus aswell.

 

[Trebor135]

(As the Muslims conceive of the Creator as Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, or any other theists would conceive of Satan or a high demon, if Satan was given the attribute of eternity.)

Interesting. Why do you say this?

 

[rinnie]

This statement here is certainly wrong. While we are of course, obligated to be charitable to Muslims, saying that per CCC, Muslims “profess the faith of Abraham” is misleading.

The CCC says that Muslims profess to follow/hold the faith of Abraham- not that they actually DO hold/profess the faith of Abraham. In other words, it’s an acknowledged CLAIM of the Muslims- The Church nowhere says that this claim/profession is true.

Huh? The CCC says that the Muslims hold the faith of Abraham and together with us worship the one true God.

Now how can they not worship the ONE TRUE GOD, the same GOD as us, if TOGETHER with us they worship the ONE TRUE GOD.

The Statement in not wrong it is the Truth according to the teachings of the CC.

 

[rinnie]

The most misinterpreted section of the entire Catechism, alongside “invincible ignorance”. That was ripped out of the necessary context of Nostra aetate where it first was found, and put in the middle of unrelated catechistics. Essentially, “The Muslims don’t know what they worship, but they direct worship to ‘the Creator’, and, as there is only one Creator, all who worship the Creator worship the same one we do, with varying degrees of knowledge, all seen in smoke and shadows as in a mirror darkly.” (As the Muslims conceive of the Creator as Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, or any other theists would conceive of Satan or a high demon, if Satan was given the attribute of eternity.)

How can you say this. They claim the same as us to worship the ONE GOD Creator of heaven and earth. There is Only One God, and One Creator of heaven and earth and one God of Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

I wasn’t defending the statement you’ve quoted there. I was meaning to correct the misunderstanding I perceived in your statement regarding what is/isn’t doctrine. Your statement seemed to imply that the statement about what Muslims believe in the CCC is catholic Doctrine, that’s all I sought to correct (not “refute”, by the way, as I wasn’t debating. Sorry if it came off that way)

But what makes the difference. We still are bound to it. The CCC is a declaration of Church teaching, Its not infalible but its authoritive.

 

[Marybeloved]

Huh? The CCC says that the Muslims hold the faith of Abraham

This is just false The CCC says that Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham”- not that they “hold the faith of Abraham.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;* these profess to hold the faith of Abraham*, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

No point in placing words in the mouth of the Church or the CCC if we are truly interested in upholding what the Church actually says and not what we presume she says.

-Do Muslims as CCC says, profess to hold the faith of Abraham? Of course, they do! This is a plain fact and truthfully, we don’t even need the CCC to tell us that- Just ask any Muslim if they profess so or read the Qur’an.
-Do they HOLD that faith of Abraham as they profess to? Neither the Church in Vatican II and any of the other previous Councils nor the CCC says so. If the Church anywhere says that Muslims hold the faith of Abraham, and don’t just profess to do so, I’d very much like to see it.

Now how can they not worship the ONE TRUE GOD, the same GOD as us, if TOGETHER with us they worship the ONE TRUE GOD.

Who is debating about what God Muslims worship? This is your own debate, not mine. I can very easily point you to numerous and detailed posts I’ve made in the past here at CAF on other threads arguing that Muslims worship the same God that Jews and Christians worship. My point was that the Church only acknowledges that Muslims profess that the faith they have is that of Abraham-Nowhere in the 2,000 year History of the Catholic Church has the Church EVER accepted that this Muslim claim is true.

The Statement in not wrong it is the Truth according to the teachings of the CC.

The statement is most certainly wrong as is your own statement above. The CCC 841 has been produced here already a few times. It says they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, not that “they hold the faith of Abraham”. If we are so concerned about following the CCC, how about we actually follow what it says and not what we impose on it? Keep in mind that the Church takes great care in the language she uses in official Documents- If the Church meant to say that Muslims actually do hold Abraham’s faith and don’t merely just profess to, she would have said so.

 

[Marybeloved]

But what makes the difference. We still are bound to it. The CCC is a declaration of Church teaching, Its not infalible but its authoritive.

Of course it matters, unless we think infallibility is just a nice word that has no real consequence. If it is not infallible, it can be wrong. If it is infallible it cannot be questioned.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Huh? The CCC says that the Muslims hold the faith of Abraham and together with us worship the one true God.

Now how can they not worship the ONE TRUE GOD, the same GOD as us, if TOGETHER with us they worship the ONE TRUE GOD.

The Statement in not wrong it is the Truth according to the teachings of the CC.

But Jesus is God and they deny him as God, so technically they cannot worship the same God. You might say, well they worship the Jewish God… Well, Jesus IS the Jewish God, so technically, they are still not worshiping the right God. They think they are, but they are not.

 

[rinnie]

This is just false The CCC says that Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham”- not that they “hold the faith of Abraham.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/841.htm
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;* these profess to hold the faith of Abraham*, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

No point in placing words in the mouth of the Church or the CCC if we are truly interested in upholding what the Church actually says and not what we presume she says.

-Do Muslims as CCC says, profess to hold the faith of Abraham? Of course, they do! This is a plain fact and truthfully, we don’t even need the CCC to tell us that- Just ask any Muslim if they profess so or read the Qur’an.
-Do they HOLD that faith of Abraham as they profess to? Neither the Church in Vatican II and any of the other previous Councils nor the CCC says so. If the Church anywhere says that Muslims hold the faith of Abraham, and don’t just profess to do so, I’d very much like to see it.

Who is debating about what God Muslims worship? This is your own debate, not mine. I can very easily point you to numerous and detailed posts I’ve made in the past here at CAF on other threads arguing that Muslims worship the same God that Jews and Christians worship. My point was that the Church only acknowledges that Muslims profess that the faith they have is that of Abraham-Nowhere in the 2,000 year History of the Catholic Church has the Church EVER accepted that this Muslim claim is true.

The statement is most certainly wrong as is your own statement above. The CCC 841 has been produced here already a few times. It says they profess to hold the faith of Abraham, not that “they hold the faith of Abraham”. If we are so concerned about following the CCC, how about we actually follow what it says and not what we impose on it? Keep in mind that the Church takes great care in the language she uses in official Documents- If the Church meant to say that Muslims actually do hold Abraham’s faith and don’t merely just profess to, she would have said so.

Tell me this then, if they profess the faith of Abraham, who do we profess, not indeed the same faith of Abraham?

They say they profess the faith of Abraham, we SAY we PROFESS the faith of Abraham, now who did Abraham worship? Was it not GOD the CREATOR OF HEAVEN and EARTH? Is not that the same GOD we worship.

Now lets talk about putting words in the mouth of the CCC. You explain this to me how can we TOGETHER worship the one true God.

Also if I am wrong please explain this:

Quote Vatican The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims, They worship GOD who is ONE, Living and Subsistent merciful and Almighty the creator of heaven and earth who has also spoken to humanity. They endeavor to submit themsleves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God JUST as Abraham submittted himself to Gods plan to whose faith Muslims eargerly link their own. Unquote.

Now how can we hold them in high regard, if they worship a false god? How can they worship God who is One if he is not the One True God. How can they submit themself the same as Father Abraham did then? Are you saying Abraham had a different God? then do we also?

Abraham had ONE TRUE GOD, the same as we do. the same as muslims do.

 

[rinnie]

But Jesus is God and they deny him as God, so technically they cannot worship the same God. You might say, well they worship the Jewish God… Well, Jesus IS the Jewish God, so technically, they are still not worshiping the right God. They think they are, but they are not.

So, what does that have to do with a false god. Is the God of Abraham a false God, yes or no?

Where does the CCC or the RCC ever say that they acknowledge Christ as the One true God? It does not!

But tell me what does the One True God of Abraham who revealed HIMSELF as Jesus Christ, have to do with being a different God of Abraham.

If you were to say they do not accept Christ as the ONE TRUE GOD, because they cannot see Christ as the ONE TRUE GOD, the SAME TRUE GOD of Abraham, I would give you that.

But what makes GOD THE FATHER, Creator of heaven and earth a false god, simply because they cannot see him as Christ. The word made flesh. The Jews don’t see it either. But is their God, God the Father creator of heaven and earth false ALSO?

 

[rinnie]

But Jesus is God and they deny him as God, so technically they cannot worship the same God. You might say, well they worship the Jewish God… Well, Jesus IS the Jewish God, so technically, they are still not worshiping the right God. They think they are, but they are not.

Again they most certainly are. Please show me where the Jewish God the God of Abraham is a false God, Then show me where the Muslim God the God of Abraham is a false God, then show me where the Christian God the God of Abraham is a false God.

Because there is only ONE GOD OF ABRAHAM. or Father Abraham also is to be accused of worshiping a false God, and also all of the O.T. prophets actually.

Simply because it was CHRIST who revealed himself as the true son on Man, Not Abraham, nor any other prophet.

 

[rinnie]

Of course it matters, unless we think infallibility is just a nice word that has no real consequence. If it is not infallible, it can be wrong. If it is infallible it cannot be questioned.

Wrong. Simplly wrong and false. Not in the RCC. The Pope has the authority to speak and teach in the name of Christ.

CCC is a declaration of Church teaching, it is not an infalible document but its authoritive.

Code of Canon Law. 212.

The Pope has the right to teach in the name of Christ, and we do not question him.

You are Peter and to you I give the keys to the kingdom, what you bound is bound, what you loose is loose.

The Pope is who has the keys to the kingdom. He has the Power!! He has authority from God to teach and we must obey.

In the RCC you don’t have to agree, you just have to obey. He has the authority and the CCC is Authoritive.

 

[rinnie]

But Jesus is God and they deny him as God, so technically they cannot worship the same God. You might say, well they worship the Jewish God… Well, Jesus IS the Jewish God, so technically, they are still not worshiping the right God. They think they are, but they are not.

Also if you believe this you are easily fooled. Then that would put the Blessed Mother in the same place correct? Because did she not worship the Jewish God? When did he change?

Just because Christ revealed himself long after the O.T as the Son of God, did not change who he was.

 

[Jacob50]

Mohammed claimed that long-term apparitions of “an angel” visited him throughout 23 years and gave him messages that clearly contradicted Christianity while teaching some truths like the Oneness and greatness of God. This is so similar to some cough, cough… False…cough Catholic apparitions in the present age that have attracted huge masses to certain sites.

I’ve often thought Mohammed was most likely delusional or schizophrenic rather than an outright liar, but now I’m leaning towards the opinion that he was the seer of a false apparition, certainly not the Biblical Archangel St. Gabriel. A thread of mine like this was closed due to veering off-topic, but I’m still interested in the discussion. So, thoughts…

Well ill give you my own opinion. If we look at scripture:

Galatians was written around 48-55 A.D.

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again:** If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted**, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:6-10

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
Matthew 7:15

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”
2 Peter 2:1-3

The above to me, is Islam. Their prophet: Muhammad
Muslims believe that the verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Muhammad by God through the archangel Gabriel (Jibrīl) in the year 622 A.D.…some 600 years after the gospels and New testament writtings hmmm

Ive heard similar stories btw. Mormonism.

Smith (the founder) said that the angel Moroni gave him a book of golden plates inscribed with a religious history of ancient American peoples. He published what he said was an English translation of the plates, the “Book of Mormon”. Its like another Qur’an.

“Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears”.
Acts 20:28-31

This last one is to me protestantism. Luther was from our own number.

 

[rinnie]

Well ill give you my own opinion. If we look at scripture:

Galatians was written around 48-55 A.D.

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again:** If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted**, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:6-10

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
Matthew 7:15

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”
2 Peter 2:1-3

The above to me, is Islam. Their prophet: Muhammad
Muslims believe that the verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Muhammad by God through the archangel Gabriel (Jibrīl) in the year 622 A.D.…some 600 years after the gospels and New testament writtings hmmm

Ive heard similar stories btw. Mormonism.

Smith (the founder) said that the angel Moroni gave him a book of golden plates inscribed with a religious history of ancient American peoples. He published what he said was an English translation of the plates, the “Book of Mormon”. Its like another Qur’an.

“Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears”.
Acts 20:28-31

This last one is to me protestantism. Luther was from our own number.

Good scripture Jacob.

If I could add.

2 Peter 2 As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have false teachers, who will insinuate thier own disruptive views and by disowning the Lord who brought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction.

But my point is and has always been it is not fair to accuse people of having a false god, just because they have fallen for a false teacher. Because Muslims follow a false prophet, and a false teaching, you cannot accuse them of praying and adoring a false god.

They adore and pray to the God of Abraham, that is indeed the same God that we all profess.

And that is the One True God.

We must agree on what we have in common, Muslims do not pray to Muhammad, they do not pray and adore him. They believe in a false teacher, not a false god. It is not fair to bear false witness against our neighbor.