Mohammed the Prophet?

[smaneck]

And thus we need to examine the context of the comforter in John 14 in order to know if the use of the term in regaurds to Jesus in his epistles is the same of John 14. There are facts which exclude this option, Jesus must leave that the comforter may come. So it would an absurd interpretaion to say that Jesus is the comforter in John 14 or other verses in the same gospel.

Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote very carefully. I said John refers to Jesus as a comforter in one of the Epistles.

And the quran says the true followers of Jesus were the ones who prevailed, as I mentioned in another book.

Sorry, but that is a misinterpretation. What that verse was saying is that Christianity prevailed over those who rejected Jesus. It is not a reference to the various divisions within Christianity.

Not the mention they were the vast majority. And if Muhammad never wants to argue against the trinity then I suggest muslims need invent some new arguments.

I never suggested that Muhammad did not reject the Trinity.

Now as for the collyridians, surely allah in his wisdom would have known that they were minor at best,

You don’t know that they were minor in Arabia at the time.

I think its far more likely that Muhammad misidentified the honouring of the theotokos

There are some commentaries that take the position that the verse in question is referring to the Theotokos. In that case it is not saying that Mary is part of the Trinity but that this was one of the forms of shirk which the Qur’an found unacceptable.

you had the Christians of Najran (who in an interesting encounter leaved Muhammad rather beaten in terms of arguments and thus the surah for abrogation was revealed or the unclear meanings of the quran).

Where in the world are you getting this? The Surah of Imran was revealed in response to debate with the Christians of Najran, not the surah of Baqara which contains the verse on abrogation.

There were certain monastic centres in Arabia, I think one of the more prominent is the still in existence is Saint Catherine’s monastary, and even in the tradition of the monastary Muhammad was said to have offered his personal protection to the monastary after seeing a mosque built in there.

And your point is?

 

[vskipper]

a) most of what I was going to object to was already mentioned by another
b) how could the prophet be referring to Jesus when the question was asked to John the Baptist, either you are mistaken or the Christian doctrine is flawed:

19 Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders[c] in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20 He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”

21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

He answered, “No.”

John 1:19-21

He said no to all THREE. Notice there were three mentioned not two. The word messiah was used separately. So, I ask again who was the prophet?

Btw, the satanic verses as they are known are dated to hundreds of years after the prophet which would make them naturally fake.

As to the Gospel of Thomas claim:

1. the possibility that it was within grasp of the prophet (s.a.w.) is not likely
2. it would be irrelevant if it was because he was illiterate, in other words he could have come across every scripture in the world and it would all look like just lines to him as he could not read. Understand?

Now with all that said I will say I think the argument of the Holy Spirit appears to have some understandable logic behind it as does the one concerning the differences between Jesus and Paul. However, as I understand it a sacrifice was not the only means of obtaining forgiveness as one could offer up incense or in certain cases, flour.

Finally, the reason to look to a prophet is the miracles, the confirmation of his prophethood though is through his message and as of yet I really have not found any sound arguments against the Qur’an although I am still here willing to listen if anyone has any indepth apologetic refutation of the Qur’an.

 

[dzheremi]

You don’t know that they were minor in Arabia at the time.

I don’t really want to get into the arguments you’re having with other posters in this thread, but regarding this contention, actually we do know that they were minor in Arabia at the time. There have been various scholarly studies on Christianity in Arabia prior to the invention of Islam, and what has been teased apart from the ahistorical Islamic narrative by the likes of scholars such as Brock, Griffith, Tremmingham, and others is that Christians in Arabia were mostly followers of established Syriac churches, both Orthodox and Nestorian. Neither of these churches ever held to the heresy of the Collyridians, which has been suggested by some to be more of a synthesis of pre-existing pagan beliefs and new-found devotion to St. Mary as part of the misunderstanding on the pagans’ part of what was then the new religion of Christianity, rather than an actual Christian sect itself. St. Epiphanus of Salamis (an early Palestinian-Egyptian monk and bishop of the 4th century) testifies as to the antiquity of their errant belief, but also to the fact that they have always been condemned by the mainstream of Christianity.

 

[MartinJordan]

a) most of what I was going to object to was already mentioned by another
b) how could the prophet be referring to Jesus when the question was asked to John the Baptist, either you are mistaken or the Christian doctrine is flawed:

John 1:19-21

He said no to all THREE. Notice there were three mentioned not two. The word messiah was used separately. So, I ask again who was the prophet?

Let me ask, have you noticed that they are asking a Jew (John being an Israelite) these three questions?

MJ

 

[vskipper]

a) Of course I realized that
b) As a prophet if the prophet in question was to be Jesus (pbuh) then would not John have had an obligation to correct them in their thinking?

c) I forgot this earlier but no one has really answered anything regarding my Psalms 91 question

 

[MartinJordan]

a) Of course I realized that
b) As a prophet if the prophet in question was to be Jesus (pbuh) then would not John have had an obligation to correct them in their thinking?

c) I forgot this earlier but no one has really answered anything regarding my Psalms 91 question

John The Baptist did. Haven’t you read all of John 1?

Besides as you are aware John is an Israelite those who questioned (the priests and Levites) asked because the prophet will be from the Israelites.

MJ

 

[vskipper]

man 1: Did you notice that Where the Red Fern Grows they don’t really explain why the dog died?

man 2: Yes it did. Didn’t you read it?

@MJordan, did man two really give a sufficient answer or was it more of a general commentary that came off as condescending and failed to help anything in any way other than perhaps his own ego?

Also you do realize that Israelite is simply another way of saying Hebrew as they were known as the Hebrew people before they were given the land of Israel? Jews were simply a tribe of the Hebrew people.

Perhaps if you are going to take the time in your day to “respond” to these inquiries you should take a few more minutes and elaborate on what you are trying to say or are indicating. In previous posts I clarified both the verse and what was said through a direct quote so that no confusion was to be.

 

[smaneck]

He said no to all THREE.

And yet Jesus indicates John the Baptist is a Prophet and more than a Prophet. He also indicates that John the Baptist was the Return of Elijah.

Btw, the satanic verses as they are known are dated to hundreds of years after the prophet which would make them naturally fake.

As, of course, are most of the hadith, but this particular one is especially weak.

 

[smaneck]

There have been various scholarly studies on Christianity in Arabia prior to the invention of Islam, and what has been teased apart from the ahistorical Islamic narrative by the likes of scholars such as Brock, Griffith, Tremmingham, and others is that Christians in Arabia were mostly followers of established Syriac churches, both Orthodox and Nestorian.

Actually, the Christians of Najran (Yemen) would have been Monophysites.

St. Epiphanus of Salamis (an early Palestinian-Egyptian monk and bishop of the 4th century) testifies as to the antiquity of their errant belief, but also to the fact that they have always been condemned by the mainstream of Christianity.

Which would have made Arabia a very attractive place to live, far from the grasp of Byzantine authority.

 

[smaneck]

Besides as you are aware John is an Israelite those who questioned (the priests and Levites) asked because the prophet will be from the Israelites.

MJ

The Arabs are “brethren” of the Israelites.

 

[JillianRose]

I have studied Middle eastern Religions: This is why I KNOW he is not a prophet:

Easy as this: Historically if you got thru our Bible, God went to his prophets himself. He did not send an angel. Mohammad had to be convinced it was God by his wife.

I think as a Catholic it is obvious…

 

[smaneck]

I have studied Middle eastern Religions: This is why I KNOW he is not a prophet:

So did I. In fact I have a PhD on the subject and I came to opposite conclusion. The saj form in which the Qur’anic verses are revealed are nearly the same as the “Thus speaketh the Lord” passages of the Tanakh.

 

[MartinJordan]

man 1: Did you notice that Where the Red Fern Grows they don’t really explain why the dog died?

man 2: Yes it did. Didn’t you read it?

@MJordan, did man two really give a sufficient answer or was it more of a general commentary that came off as condescending and failed to help anything in any way other than perhaps his own ego?

Also you do realize that Israelite is simply another way of saying Hebrew as they were known as the Hebrew people before they were given the land of Israel? Jews were simply a tribe of the Hebrew people.

Perhaps if you are going to take the time in your day to “respond” to these inquiries you should take a few more minutes and elaborate on what you are trying to say or are indicating. In previous posts I clarified both the verse and what was said through a direct quote so that no confusion was to be.

Friend. You didn’t answer my question. Did you or did you not read all of John 1?

MJ

 

[vskipper]

1. there are instances of angels speaking to man as part of prophecy, I already went down that road
2. mjordon the fact that you actually asked me that after what I said shows me that either you are lazy or that you are too ignorant to realize what I have said. I will be refraining from further conversating with you as I believe it to be a useless endeavor.

 

[dzheremi]

Actually, the Christians of Najran (Yemen) would have been Monophysites.

No. There has never been an organized Syriac Christian “Monophysite” church, so that is impossible. Brock’s “Holy Women of the Syrian Orient” analyzes and translates their martyrologies from the original sources, and as Brock is the world’s foremost scholar on this subject (Syriac Christianity of the Middle East), I think I’m going to trust him and not you.

Which would have made Arabia a very attractive place to live, far from the grasp of Byzantine authority.

That’s an…interesting interpretation of my post…

 

[smaneck]

No. There has never been an organized Syriac Christian “Monophysite” church, so that is impossible.

Actually there are. They are called Jacobites after Jacob Severus of Antioch. However, the Najran Christians were located in Yemen, an area more heavily influenced by the Ethiopian church. That’s why I think they were monophysites.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh boy…one of these…I’m out of here. I just can’t take the ignorance anymore. It’s not worth it.

 

[JillianRose]

So did I. In fact I have a PhD on the subject and I came to opposite conclusion. The saj form in which the Qur’anic verses are revealed are nearly the same as the “Thus speaketh the Lord” passages of the Tanakh.

Just because he claimed he is a prophet, to Catholics that does not mean anything. What I said is historically what is known about Mohammad. He had to be convinced from his wife that the angel Gabriel came to him as a messenger of God. I am telling you from ALL CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC doctrine GOD NEVER SENT ANGELS TO PROPHETS. God went himself. Friend I understand where you are coming from. We do not account as Catholics, books besides our Bible and 2000 year old tradition as authority from God.

What I did not do a great job in explaining to you in my original post is, you can not quote a book that has no authority over Christians. We do believe Muslims worship the same God, however, since they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ, they are “Blinded”. It would be like me going on a Muslim web site and trying to quote the Bible. It has NO authority over them. I can tell them about our facts about Jesus and they would not believe it because they are not under the same conviction and book.

May peace of our Lord be with you.

In Christ the King,
Jillian

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

b) how could the prophet be referring to Jesus when the question was asked to John the Baptist, either you are mistaken or the Christian doctrine is flawed:

John 1:19-21

He said no to all THREE. Notice there were three mentioned not two. The word messiah was used separately. So, I ask again who was the prophet?

I’m afraid I don’t understand the contention. The “he” there is John the Baptist, and John the Baptist was talking about himself there, not Jesus.

If you’re implying that the prophet and Messiah are two separate people, I again invite you to read the passage from Acts I cited in my earlier post, where Peter clearly identifies the prophet and Messiah as the same person.

Now with all that said I will say I think the argument of the Holy Spirit appears to have some understandable logic behind it as does the one concerning the differences between Jesus and Paul.

Which have already been addressed, as I went to them in my earlier post. If you desire honest discussion over these things, we can’t just repeat arguments without addressing counterarguments.

However, as I understand it a sacrifice was not the only means of obtaining forgiveness as one could offer up incense or in certain cases, flour.

Did you read Leviticus 16? And how do you respond to the passages where Christ clearly speaks of his death, and especially of his death being a sacrifice for atonement?

 

[vskipper]

Just because he claimed he is a prophet, to Catholics that does not mean anything. What I said is historically what is known about Mohammad. He had to be convinced from his wife that the angel Gabriel came to him as a messenger of God. I am telling you from ALL CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC doctrine GOD NEVER SENT ANGELS TO PROPHETS. God went himself. Friend I understand where you are coming from. We do not account as Catholics, books besides our Bible and 2000 year old tradition as authority from God.

What I did not do a great job in explaining to you in my original post is, you can not quote a book that has no authority over Christians. We do believe Muslims worship the same God, however, since they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ, they are “Blinded”. It would be like me going on a Muslim web site and trying to quote the Bible. It has NO authority over them. I can tell them about our facts about Jesus and they would not believe it because they are not under the same conviction and book.

May peace of our Lord be with you.

In Christ the King,
Jillian

Genesis 22
Exodus 3:4
Numbers 22:38