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Doxiemom
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Wasn’t “allah” the name of a demon?
That should have been a clue to Mohammend that something ain’t right here.
That should have been a clue to Mohammend that something ain’t right here.
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MartinJordan
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Mohammed very obviously also missed this : John 13: 12-14-
12 Then after he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, being set down again, he said to them: Know you what I have done 13 You call me Master, and Lord; and you say well, for so I am**. 14 If then* I being your Lord and Master**, have washed your feet; you all shall wash one another’s feet.
So by avoiding even mentioning the great humility our Lord had, Mohammed preached “another Gospel” :dts:
MJ
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Amoon
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- Our greatest proof that Mohammed is the true Prophet of God is the Quran. The Word of God, which no man can create a single verse like it. Do you really believe that Quran is the word of man? Read every single verse in it, and be logical.
- You know that Prophet Jesus was sent to a specific nation “Jews”, and he said that: Mt 15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
- Islam is the only other religion that believes in Jesus as one of God’s mightiest Prophets and the only other religion that believes that Mary is the greatest woman of all nations. Quran 3:42. Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee;―chosen thee above the women of all nations.
- The teaching of Islam is very logical and can easily be understood and accepted by our nature. To worship God only, the Creator of Heavens and Earth, to pray to God only, to seek forgiveness from God only. For a person to leave Islam and accept Christianity, for example, he has to make a distance between himself and God. Instead of seeking forgiveness from God, he has to seek it now from a priest, and instead of worshipping God alone, he will worship him in three forms, and has to equalize Him with his creations. This is not really appealing for Muslims, because we have a great faith, and God is so close to us that we pray to Him directly, and seek His forgiveness directly.
- Prophet Mohammed did not bring a new faith that contradicts with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him. His teaching is not different than the teaching of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Moses, and all the Prophets of God who came to guide people to the One True God, including Prophet Jesus of course, who delivered the exact same teaching.
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Peace_of_cake
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Isn’t that every argument though? St Paul on the road to Damascus claimed a spectacular event that made him an apostle. We believe him to be an apostle based on his claim. It is of course a cicular argument. Basically you either accept it or you don’t. Muhammed is clearly an important figure in history and did miraculos things so I can see why people would believe his claims.… Mohamad is a prophet because he said so.
I’m not sure what people want fron this thread? We could put forward various attacks on Muhammed’s character, but this strikes me as an un-Christian thing to do and just makes people defensive and therefore unable to listen rendering all communication futile. Also if one is going to go down this road then its got to be a decent argument, some are frankly ridiculous!
So what do people want? No matter what you claim there will be a counter claim, valid or not. So shall we continue ad infinitum in vain or instead raise the level of dialogue and stay well clear of childish point scoring?
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Darran
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Theres always one in these threads isn’t there? St Paul is completely off topic to this. Firstly, he wasn’t claiming to be a prophet, secondly it wasn’t that event that made him an Apostle, it was the other Apostles laying hands on him. That event caused his conversion, that isn’t exactly a point to doubt since he was a gospel writer.
Muhammad didn’t create a single miracle. The only one he ever did was make a donkey fly apparantly, and the only living person to see this “miracle” was the donkey itself.
You’re saying attacking an evil thing is an “unChristian” thing to do? Get your head out mate.
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MartinJordan
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jakasaki
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Really…? Please explain the bold part.
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sedonaman
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There is no logic to the Qur’an, at least not unitary logic. The logic of the Qur’an is dualistic, that is, two mutually exclusive statements can be true at the same time. Man has actually created scriptures better than the Qur’an: The Iliad is a good example. It is even longer than the Qur’an. But literary eloquence is not proof of divine origin. If it was, then the gods mentioned in the Iliad would be real gods, which we know they are not. Personally, I believe the Qur’an is the word of Satan.
The topic is Mohammed.
And his message is in a language that only a few understand. Again, this presupposes that Mohammed was a prophet, which I reject. But, let’s pull that thread. Who told you that Mohammed was a prophet? Your parents? Who told them? Their parents? Who told your parents’ parents? We can extend this all the way back to the first person to declare Mohammed to be a prophet, and that person is none other than Mohammed himself. One of the main ways that Mohammed attempted to support his validity was to draw similarities between those who rejected him and those who rejected previous apostles sent by God. But what kind of proof is that? No proof, for everyone has experienced rejection at one time or other. Therefore, you can take any two people and draw similarities between them.
Mohammed tries to get around his validation problem by claiming that the Bible had become “corrupt” down through time, although he does not show what the supposed “corruption” is. If we accept this assertion, a Qur’anic passage such as, “Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him” was the original message from God that had gotten “corrupted” to “Love your neighbor as yourself” which had to be “corrected” back to, “Kill the unbeliever wherever you find him.” The former was a corruption by men to control the people. This doesn’t make any sense, and it’s certainly not logical.
So the question still remains unanswered: how do you determine if someone is a true prophet or not? You can’t just take his word for it.
Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Does that make him one? You can believe whatever you want, but belief is not proof.
To try to get Christians to accept him as a prophet.
The only assertion here is that Islam is true; it is not proof of anything.
OK. Let’s now pull this thread. Muslims claim that everyone was born a Muslim, and those who are not today got tricked into leaving the faith. [That’s why converts are greeted with, “Welcome back.”] This falling away is supposedly caused by the “corruption” of the original scriptures, by men so that they could control the people. Muslims consider the Old and New Testaments to be true only so far as they agree with Islam. The rest is a “corruption”. So it is fair to conclude that a passage from the Old or New Testament that is not a corruption should also be in the Qur’an. Where in the Qur’an are Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and the Lord’s Prayer? There are only two possible answers to this: 1) they are corruptions, so they were left out; 2) they are not corruptions, and the Islamic claim that “His [Mohammed’s] teaching is not different than the teaching of Abraham, Noah, Jacob, David, Moses, and all the Prophets of God who came to guide people to the One True God, including Prophet Jesus of course, who delivered the exact same teaching” did “contradict with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him” and is therefore false. You can argue that they are corruptions, but that would require a rejection of the Beatitudes, ideals that focus on love and humility rather than force and exaction. They echo the highest ideals of the teachings of Jesus on mercy, spirituality, and compassion. Is “the religion of peace” prepared to argue against those?
What about the Lord’s prayer, a prayer to the One True God that you claim to worship [the Trinity is not mentioned in it] and a prayer that praises Him and asks Him for our physical and spiritual needs? Is Islam ready to argue that this prayer is also a corruption?
Islam is a mile wide but only a millimeter deep. To show it is not true, one need only ask a few probing questions, and it won’t take many before the Islamic scholar begins to contradict himself, as demonstrated in “St. John of Damascus’ Critique of Islam” orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx .
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Peace_of_cake
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The mention of St Paul is completely relevant since his being an apostle is due to Christ commanding him to spread the “good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.” The laying of hands was his acceptance by the other apostles, not his being an apostle. So the claim was accepted by those that werent witness. Of course the apostles tested the claim and were convinced. Likewise Muhammed’s claim was accepted by people because they were convinced. One example would be the many miracles he brought, in thier tradition, such as splitting the moon or feeding children milk from his fingers and so on (I know of no such story of flying donkies, please elaborate). Or maybe people were convinced by the miracle of his leadership to bring order to Arabia, a chaotic backwater that had never known government.
Doubt the Church agrees with your definition of evil, but this is besides the point. My argument is the method used. If your assertions are foolish and simplistic, would calling you an idiot make you more inclined to my argument? Clearly calling to the truth requires wisdom and fine character and mocking another’s religion will not incline them to the truth… especially when the claims are ill thought out and show a lack of really understanding the subject matter.
Lets all - myself incuded - raise our argument and we will see the rewards
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Darran
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It isn’t error to be angry at a satanist such as muhammad. It wouldn’t be an error in Iran, neither would it (God forbid!) be a problem on a Catholic forum. Truth is truth nomatter how upset someone might get at hearing it. That is, assuming that every Catholic on this thread were speaking with a sword and an iron rod, but they weren’t.
St Paul isn’t similar at all. His conversion has no reason to be doubted, what caused him to convert is irrelevant. Besides, even if you wanted to play it that way, Ananias vision confirmed Pauls conversion, and his restoration to sight confirmed the miracle. His ordination DID come from the Apostles, I don’t see how any Catholic could deny this.
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Armyvet007
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Augustine3
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Amoon I’m interested to know who gets to judge if a man can produce a single verse better than the Quran and what criteria do they use to make such a judgement. Please explain.
God bless,
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MartinJordan
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Darran;9153175:
I must agree with this. Dear Darran our brother in Christ, it will not be helpful to go this route. After all, we’re in a dialogue and our Christian charity must be first and foremost.
That said, If I have hurt or seem to be bashing any of Muslims friends’ Faith, please do not take it personally.
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Peace_of_cake
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My dear Darren, I feel you have missed my two points completely.
The first was simply saying that claims of something aren’t sufficient for people to be convinced; conviction needs ‘proof’ of some type. You have given another example of ‘proof’ with Ananias, but he was not witness. It was a miracle to convince others. If you look into Islamic tradition you’ll find many of these type of ‘proofs’ and so Muslims would also see no reason to doubt Muhammed’s Prophethood. They have as much conviction as you do my friend and are as defensive also for the same type of reasons. Think we need to empathise a little and this would really help dialogue.
Your comments about satanists (and Iran?) are not Church teaching and as others have said do not help at all. It does maybe tell us a little about where you’re coming from…
Oh btw you may want to reconsider your understanding of ‘ordination.’
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LtTony
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Not to mention Shakespeare, Plato, Orwell, etc., etc., in the Western world alone. You or other muslims saying the Koran the most beautiful thing ever written does not prove divine origin, as augustine3 and sedonaman said.
How is the Koran proof Mohammad was a prophet?
Your points 2 and 3 – while I’m certain you earnestly believe is some sort of proof – prove nothing. Zero.
Your point 4 “The teaching of Islam is very logical and can easily be understood and accepted by our nature” is merely an opinion often expressed by muslims. It is not logical a lot of people. And for something so easily understood, there are a lot of differences among muslims on how to interpret the Koran and hadith. On issues such as apostasy, adultery, “zina” and music, for example.
Your point 5: “Mohammed did not bring a new faith that contradicts with the teachings of the other Messengers that God sent before him.”
Islam is in direct contradiction of Christianity. Apart from that, it contradicts Judaism. Otherwise, muslims would be Jews. Mohammad came 600 years after Christianity and 3000 years after Judaism offered no proof to demonstrate how either one went off the rails. You only have his word.
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Sam_777
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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif I have an objection here, as an Arabic son of an Arabic person, I was stunt by the beauty of the Bible rhythm which outpace the Quran ones, you cannot actually feel the difference unless you read both.
That is why the Bible is prohibited to enter Saudi Arabia, so people here cannot read it then dump the Quran claim of the unique rhythm.
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Sam_777
Guest
Firstly, there are three other Apostles whom agree with “St Paul”, so if all the Christian faith was based upon one person “St Paul” (like the case of Muhammed), then your argument is true.jakasaki;9147905:
Isn’t that every argument though? St Paul on the road to Damascus claimed a spectacular event that made him an apostle. We believe him to be an apostle based on his claim. It is of course a cicular argument. Basically you either accept it or you don’t. Muhammed is clearly an important figure in history and did miraculos things so I can see why people would believe his claims.… Mohamad is a prophet because he said so.
Secondly, Muhammed was an important figure in history because of his tribe influence in Arabian Peninsula at that time, his grandfather (Abdul Mutallib) from the Quraysh tribe which was number one tribe during that time, and their genealogy can be traced back to Ishmael, was a wealthy man in Mecca and all other tribes were listening to him, also Muhammed married his first wife (Khadijah bint Khuwaylid), the “Princess of Quraish”, who was a businesswoman and also a very rich woman with lots of influence.
Thirdly, there is no mention of any miracle for Muhammed in Quran, miracles are very important events, if such had happened, then Quran should have mentioned them.
Finally, it would be wise if you state your religion in your CAF profile, so we know how to cite our references in the future.
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sedonaman
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I am curious to know how that was done.
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jlhargus
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JL: If the Quran is your greatest proof Mohammed is a prophet then, as I see it, you have no proof. I have a Quran I’ve read some of it and yes I do really believe it’s the word of man. I think many could produce verses better and some have.
JL: Yes Our Lord and God Jesus’ mission was to the people of Israel. However He sent His apostles to the whole world and promised to be WITH them till the end of the world. Is Mohammed with and mediating for anyone today?
JL: That isn’t true there were and are some heretical groups that teach that such as Gnostics. Where do you think Mohammed got that teaching?
JL: Again that isn’t true Catholics, Orthodox, Copts believe that. Where do you think Mohammed got that teaching?
JL: A well done counterfeit dollar is more deceptive than a an obvious counterfeit dollar.
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jlhargus
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JL: I would tend to agree the teaching of Islam can easily be understood and accepted by human nature. As it seems to me to be a product and logic of human nature.
JL: Christians worship ONE GOD only. Can you as a Moslem address God as Father? I can. Can you call yourself a child of God? I can. Can you have a close friendship with God? I can. Does God know, love and have a personal interest in you as an individual? Yes. I also may pray directly to God. Especially when I pray the prayer Our Lord and God Jesus gave us.
Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
I also may ask others to pray for me including those who are in heaven. I also may directly seek and ask forgiveness for my sins. I do so before I go to Confession. Our Lord God Jesus Christ also gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation so the indwelling Holy Spirit can be restored to our soul. So we can receive advice to avoid sins. So we can know we are truly forgiven instead of guessing. Confessing one’s sins to another person is very liberating and comforting.
JL: I suggest you read the Bible and judge for yourself. I will be praying for you Amoon.
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