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PumpkinSeed
Guest
@sam,
The bible isn’t allowed in Saudi Arabia?
If that’s true, then that is terrible.
The bible isn’t allowed in Saudi Arabia?
If that’s true, then that is terrible.
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Sam_777
Guest
There are many Arabic sources for that, if you can read Arabic then I will provide you the links.
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Sam_777
Guest
Definitely it’s not allowed to enter Saudi Arabia, If they discovered that you have Bible in the shipment or when entering through the airport customs then they will confiscate it and put it in the shredder machine, as shown in this incident.@sam,
The bible isn’t allowed in Saudi Arabia?
If that’s true, then that is terrible.
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MartinJordan
Guest
I would like to see Mohammed’s own proof that he was from Ishmael’s line. If not then it’s not good enough.
MJ
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Peace_of_cake
Guest
You seem to miss the point I was trying to make. To be honest it has little to do with St Paul per se. I’m trying to say that the following argument is used by any prophet (and St Paul et al):Firstly, there are three other Apostles whom agree with “St Paul”, so if all the Christian faith was based upon one person “St Paul” (like the case of Muhammed), then your argument is true.
Secondly, Muhammed was an important figure in history because of his tribe influence in Arabian Peninsula at that time, his grandfather (Abdul Mutallib) from the Quraysh tribe which was number one tribe during that time, and their genealogy can be traced back to Ishmael, was a wealthy man in Mecca and all other tribes were listening to him, also Muhammed married his first wife (Khadijah bint Khuwaylid), the “Princess of Quraish”, who was a businesswoman and also a very rich woman with lots of influence.
Thirdly, there is no mention of any miracle for Muhammed in Quran, miracles are very important events, if such had happened, then Quran should have mentioned them.
Finally, it would be wise if you state your religion in your CAF profile, so we know how to cite our references in the future.
Person A claims to have status X
Person B believes person A to be truthful
Therefore person B accepts A has status X
It’s clearly a circular argument based on the ‘claim’ and perception of the claimant ‘to be truthful.’ Whilst what moves one into believing another is truthful is of interest, since it may be a miracle or whatever, nevertheless it is still based on a belief, hence why one has faith. The basic point I’m trying to make is that this ‘argument’ is true for any Prophet, true or otherwise, therefore it’s not sensible to raise an objection against Muhammed based upon it.
Yes, Muhammed was clearly an important figure in his society, but it’s not really honest to say that is only why. For example he was not the most important person in this society, yet history has forgotten them and all others and not him. Like it or not he is one of the most influential people in all history - it really is undeniable, whatever anyone else may say.
Genealogy is tricky because how much do we trust the Islamic sources? I’m sure there is a lot of really good stuff in Arabic, which Im sure you could summarise for us. Of course they are not the only ones; there is a lot of literature out there. I did know a little of the origins of the Arabs, but it’s really hard stuff. Just having a quick look through Britannica reminds me there are the Arab al Aribah (pure Arabs) from Qahtan, and the Arab al Mustaribah (Arabisced) from Adnan. Biblical tradition makes Adnan and possibly Qahtan the descendants of Ishmael. It’s not really contentious to say Arabs are Ishmalites and therefore Muhammed defends from Ishmael. Some Zionists and Fundies try and refute this because it doesn’t fit their narrow world view, not for sound academic reasons. Interestingly Louis Massignon - our greatest scholar on Islam - thought Islam was the answer to the Biblical prophecy of the people of Ishmael becoming a great nation.
There is much in the Islamic tradition, both Sunni and Shia, of the miracles ascribed to Muhammed, so I don’t know why you say this?
I don’t see why knowing my background is of any concern to what I’ve presented. However, it’s know secret so feel free to read previous threads I’ve been involved with to read the whole story.
Let us all rejoice in this time
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jakasaki
Guest
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PumpkinSeed
Guest
Well then Saudi Arabia just lost my respect.
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Peace_of_cake
Guest
Sorry thought I’d answered this, please see above
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Sam_777
Guest
Because of two main factors:
- If miracles really had happened, and since they are fundamentally a very important events, then Quran should have mentioned them, which it did not.
- There is a verse in Quran which clearly states that there are NO SIGNS for Muhammed per Quran (17:59):
“And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).”
We don’t want to know your background
, just cite your religion (Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc) in your profile so we know which references we should provide you…
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Sam_777
Guest
I think if you read the Quran and hadiths your expectations would be worst than that…
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MartinJordan
Guest
Hi Sam777, were you able to find any quote from Mohammed’s own words that he was from the line of Ishmail? Or atleast his followers saying that he was? Perhaps there is a quote from one of the respective sources that Mohammed was an Ishmalite?
Advance thanks for any sources on above:thumbsup:
MJ
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couponfit
Guest
Regardless, about 1 billion believe the Qu’ran and it’s growing. It’s bearing fruit and strength.In regards to the apparitions from the angel Gabriel to Mohammed and if the apparitions are true or is this a false religion, I think this information will be helpful as the main clue:
In the Old and New Testaments, when an apparition comes from heaven, the messenger always has the same comment and it is “Do Not Be afraid”. This is the same as the angel Gabriel to Mary and Jesus at the Transfiguration as well as Our Lady of Guadalupe, Fatima, etc. If the messenger does not address the person with “Do not be afraid”, I think the safe bet is “Do not believe”. I do not remember Gariel saying tis to Mohammed.
Peace
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septimine
Guest
It’s growing because we aren’t diligent in teaching the Bible, and because Muslims have a higher birthrate than Christians. It’s not that the Qu’ran is somehow superior, it’s that the Christians of Europe especially are more concerned with secularism than Christianity.
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sedonaman
Guest
I thought a circular argument went like this:
Person A claims to have status X
Person B believes person A to be truthful
Therefore person B accepts A has status X
Asked why, Person B answers by saying “Because Person A has status X.”
The way I read Mohammed’s claim is [in the modern vernacular] :
Mohammed: “The Angel Gabriel appeared to me and said I am God’s messenger.”
Skeptic: “What proof do you have of this?”
Mohammed: “Whaaaaat? You don’t believe in God’s messenger?”
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dolphinlove
Guest
Oh this is original
.I have read some of the quran and I was not inspired. Actually, that is not entirely true, I was inspired to not bother reading the whole lot of it
Now, Mohammad is not a true prophet, as this warning in the bible is clear:
Matt 7:15 'Beware of false prophets who come to you disguised as sheep but underneath are ravenous wolves.
And John the Baptist IS the last prophet, so its impossible for Mohammed to be a prophet:
Luke 16:16 'Up to the time of John it was the Law and the Prophets; from then onwards, the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.
Wrong, Jesus was sent for all nations:
Matt 29:18 Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teach them to observe all the commands I gave you. And look, I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.’.
If Mohammad was to spread the word to all, why is the quran only really meant to be read in Arabic? Many muslims have claimed that for the quran to make perfect sense, it can only be read in Arabic and cannot be fully translated as it loses its ‘poetry’.
It says it in the quran also :
“Verily, We made it a Quran in Arabic so that you may be able to understand” (43:3)
To fool people, the devil isnt going to say 'oh go and do all evil things, as they will not be convinced.
Instead, he concocted a sort of peaceful ‘book’ but has taken away the most important sacrifice, Jesus dying on the cross for us.
Instead, we have a story of God deceiving us about who died on the cross.
Firstly, taking away the crucifixion, the sacrifice God did for us to save us, is the one thing the devil would love us to deny. This is the greatest gift for us, and to deny it, is tragic.
Secondly, why would God want to deceive us? The God I know is truthful and powerful and doesnt need to deceive.
It is not easy to understand and you need to sort out which hadiths are real, which ones are false etc. You then have to read the quran and compare, you call that easy?
Christians worship God only as well, we Do NOT worship 3 different forms. But you believe this cause your quran says so and it also gets it wrong.
It says the trinity consist of God, Jesus and Mary. WRONG! It is God, Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT! This is yet more proof the quran is wrong.
The first sentence in the nicene creed : We believe in one God. And that is it, we only believe in ONE God.
We also pray to God directly, we are also lucky enough to have saints to pray with us!
Oh boy, I can show you the contradictions, but it would just take me too long!
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: You might find the following interesting. Sixteen million Muslims convert to Christianity every year in Africa.
youtube.com/watch?v=xdVnILalpeo
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sedonaman
Guest
How would we know it says that since whatever it says in Arabic cannot be fully translated?
We’ve been down this road many times before; it is a Catch-22. Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this since-been-removed website islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Koran. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Koran? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Koran and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. How would the reader know what is in the Koran if it cannot be translated into the only language he does know? Hence, Catch 22.
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dolphinlove
Guest
I didnt say you HAVE TO know arabic to become a muslim, my statement is saying the quran loses its ‘poetry’. When translated, it doesnt have the ‘flow’ musllims claim it has who know arabic. yes it can be translated, but it is not the same as it is in arabic. There is a difference!
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Wouldn’t this means the hadiths (traditions) contradict the Quran. How do Muslims explain accepting a hadith over the Quran?
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Peace_of_cake
Guest
This is clearerI thought a circular argument went like this:
Person A claims to have status X
Person B believes person A to be truthful
Therefore person B accepts A has status X
Asked why, Person B answers by saying “Because Person A has status X.”
which is my point. This applies to all religions doesn’t it?Given the helpful comment above… I’m surprised by this; its not helpful nor fair. Obviously Muslims wanted proof too and were satisfied (clearly), whatever we might say. They give many such examples, like that he always told the truth (the pagan Arabs called him al Amin ‘the truthful one’) and so on…
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