Mohammed

[Armyvet007]

In regards to language-

I thought the Islamic teachings stated/implied that the original langauge was Hebrew and that God rewarded His followers with its continued use after the fall of the Tower of Babel. If so, then why would God switch to a “false” language [in terms of it not being the original; created out of the failure of men to follow God at the time of the Tower of Babel] as His method of communicating with us?

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Because of two main factors:

1. If miracles really had happened, and since they are fundamentally a very important events, then Quran should have mentioned them, which it did not.
2. There is a verse in Quran which clearly states that there are NO SIGNS for Muhammed per Quran (17:59):
   “And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).”

We don’t want to know your background , just cite your religion (Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc) in your profile so we know which references we should provide you…

I think An-Nawawi mentions ‘thousands’ of miracles in his commentary on Muslim. Also I wouldn’t say the Qur’an doesnt mention the miracles since there are verses that are understood to refer to them, like 54:1 refers to the splitting of the moon etc. Wouldn’t say the verse is denying miracles anyway, more to do with people’s stubborness. The translation is a bit off… way of terror huh?

 

[Peace_of_cake]

In regards to language-

I thought the Islamic teachings stated/implied that the original langauge was Hebrew and that God rewarded His followers with its continued use after the fall of the Tower of Babel. If so, then why would God switch to a “false” language [in terms of it not being the original; created out of the failure of men to follow God at the time of the Tower of Babel] as His method of communicating with us?

Interesting point… but where does that put us!?!

 

[Amoon]

As the topic of this thread is “Mohammed”, I thought it is good to give you some ideas who Mohammed really was. It is obvious that most of you know very few things about Prophet Mohammed’s life and his great teachings.

For Muslims, Mohammed is the ideal person, and we always try to follow his path in everything in life. God chose him to deliver his final revelation because he was a righteous man. We admire him and believe everything he taught us, not because we are naïve or stupid, but because his teachings are so valuable and reasonable that a logical person cannot deny.

He taught us that God is Oft Forgiving:

The Messenger of God (may peace be upon him) said:
God (mighty and sublime be He) said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.”

He taught us that God is Most Merciful

Prophet Muhammad said:
‘When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.’

He taught us to respect our parents

The Messenger of God (may peace be upon him) said:
“Whoever pleases his parents has pleased God, and whoever angers them has angered God”

**He taught us to respect our neighbors **

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “He will not enter Paradise whose neighbor is not secure from his wrongful conduct.”

Prophet Mohammed Said:
“He is not a true believer who eats his fill while his neighbour is hungry”

The prophet peace be upon him said:
‘Gabriel continued commending to the neighbor till I thought that he will assign to him a share of the inheritance.’

He taught us that we will not enter paradise because of our own deeds but because of God’s grace.

Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him). said:
“Try your best to do right, and be happy. For none will enter paradise only because of his deeds.” His companions said, “O Messenger of Allah! Not even you?” He replied, “Not even I, unless Allah envelops me in His mercy and grace. And bear in mind that the deed most loved by Allah is one done constantly, even though it is small.”

Prophet Mohammed was the solver of youth problems

A young man came to Prophet Mohammed once and asked him to give him permission to commit adultery. The companions of Prophet Mohammed were very annoyed of this request, and asked him to be silent. But Prophet Mohammed was calm and asked the young man to come close to him. He asked him “would you accept if someone commits adultery with your mother?” he said “oh Prophet of Allah, I wouldn’t accept it”. Then Prophet Mohammed told him “no one would accept it for their own mothers too”, then he asked him “Would you accept it for your daughter?” He said he wouldn’t. Prophet Mohammed told him that no one would accept it for their daughters too. And Prophet Mohammed kept asking him if he would accept it for his sister, aunt, and the man kept saying no. Then Prophet Mohammed placed his hand on the young man’s chest and said “My Lord, forgive him his sin, clean his heart and protect him from committing sins." The young man said later “I swear by God that adultery was the most desired thing to my heart when I went to Prophet Mohammed, and I swear by God that it became the most undesired thing when I left him”.

I can go on and on with many great teachings of Prophet Mohammed, but I keep insisting that our greatest proof that he is the Prophet of God is the Quran. The great teachings of Islam are not brought to us by a man or by satan as some of you claim! If Quran was produced by man, that man should be so great to come up with such a book, yet you don’t seem to admit that Mohammed was a great man! And if it was produced by satan, it would have contained so much evil and wrong things. We can predict the teachings of satan because he would come to delude people and ask them to associate partners with God, worship the creations, and worship all these false things such as idols, cows, fire … etc. But Quran is above all of that. We are worshipping the One True God, and we are believing in all the Prophets and revelations of God. Our religion encourages all that is good and forbids all that is bad. That is why I ask you to read the Quran, and I am sure if you are really seeking the truth, you will definitely find it in Quran.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

How would we know it says that since whatever it says in Arabic cannot be fully translated?

We’ve been down this road many times before; it is a Catch-22. Do you have to know Arabic to become a Muslim? Not according to this since-been-removed website islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338. All that is required is to submit to Allah and memorize a few prayers in the Koran. But, to submit to Allah, it is necessary to know his will, and where do you find it but in the Koran? “Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of the Koran and the original text in Arabic,” the site continues. How would the reader know what is in the Koran if it cannot be translated into the only language he does know? Hence, Catch 22.

I like to play Devil’s advocate as it has been the mainstay of the Church for many a century. Most arguments against Islam that I come across collapse when tested, however I must say I was intrigued by this ‘catch 22.’ For many Muslims this will cause problems because it challenges two things they hold true simultaneously. However, if looking from a traditional view-point then the argument could be made from the Qur’an of ‘ask those who know if you know not.’ Like us they refer to an educated ‘elite’ to explain, the ulama, somewhat equivalent to the magisterum. However, it is the case that if one wants to be a mujtahid mutlaq or have absolute freedom to understand the Quran then this does definately require Arabic, but for the laity merely asking one will do. Similarly The Vulgate has much more meaning than say the King James as St Jerome’s translation is, quite frankly, amazing, however it is not necessary for the laity to read it (even though interestingly this is Jerome’s audience). Of course for a Pope or Bishop not to understand it would be problematic.
Perhaps when we say it cannot be translated then we’re really saying we cannot word for word translate as certain concepts do not exist by themself in another language, however with a bit of explaining any language can explain it… eventually. The problem of the translator is concision so they try the word for word approach and we get ‘lost in translation.’
Anyway, hope that makes sense

 

[Armyvet007]

Interesting point… but where does that put us!?!

Us as Catholics? It doesn’t really affect us. The validity of our faith isn’t partially based on the language it is presented in/given to us by God. God’s message trancends the language. Our only concern with languages is to ensure that the message was/is translated properly.

Us as in this discussion? Well it calls into question the validity of Islam’s claims concerning the writing of the Quran [such as the claim that it must be from God because no human could write such a beautiful work of literature]. If Islam teaches that the original human language was Hebrew, and that all other languages are a result of the Tower of Babel [man disobeying God], then God’s message through Muhammad would be God using a punishment/“false” language [Classical Arabic] instead of the original/perfect language [Hebrew] He rewarded the obediant with at the Tower of Babel and previously used with His prophets. If Muhammad’s message was from God, and language [as Muslims] claim is so important, it seems logical that He would have used the original language [Hebrew] which He had already been using and which He had already rewarded to those who remained true to Him.

 

[sedonaman]

I like to play Devil’s advocate as it has been the mainstay of the Church for many a century. Most arguments against Islam that I come across collapse when tested, however I must say I was intrigued by this ‘catch 22.’ For many Muslims this will cause problems because it challenges two things they hold true simultaneously. However, if looking from a traditional view-point then the argument could be made from the Qur’an of ‘ask those who know if you know not.’ Like us they refer to an educated ‘elite’ to explain, the ulama, somewhat equivalent to the magisterum. However, it is the case that if one wants to be a mujtahid mutlaq or have absolute freedom to understand the Quran then this does definately require Arabic, but for the laity merely asking one will do. Similarly The Vulgate has much more meaning than say the King James as St Jerome’s translation is, quite frankly, amazing, however it is not necessary for the laity to read it (even though interestingly this is Jerome’s audience). Of course for a Pope or Bishop not to understand it would be problematic.
Perhaps when we say it cannot be translated then we’re really saying we cannot word for word translate as certain concepts do not exist by themself in another language, however with a bit of explaining any language can explain it… eventually. The problem of the translator is concision so they try the word for word approach and we get ‘lost in translation.’
Anyway, hope that makes sense

Thanks for your kind words. I have studied three foreign languages and will be the first to agree that one cannot always make a word-for-word translation due to idiomatic differences. “On the nose” means “exactly” to us; but to a Frenchman, “sur le nez” is meaningless. But this is where a good translator earns his salt. He will put it into the correct wording for his target audience. Of course, he must determine the thought being expressed. There was a program on TV about ancient Egyptian papyri that had survived down to this day. These contained some of the most beautiful love poetry I’ve ever heard. The fact it was translated into English is proof that it can be done; and remember, ancient Egyptian was deciphered without the help of anyone alive who could speak it. I suspect that the Muslim claim that the Koran can be understood only in Arabic is really a claim to belong to an esoteric group. Otherwise, if Islam was supposed to be for all men for all time, why did Allah hand it down in a language only a few could speak? Muslims might claim it was because that was the only language understood by the people at the time, but that doesn’t wash. Allah could have handed it down in multiple languages with no problem at all, and we would have a sort of Rosetta Stone. Then there is always the possibility that the advent of widespread communication via the internet, along with current events, has opened up the Koran to much more scrutiny than before, and the-Koran-can-be-understood-only-in-Arabic claim is to avoid the embarrassment of its more violent verses.

 

[heresiarch]

This is wild. I had a dream once I was choked by a demon, also I choked someone I know in another one! Anyway. After I read the Quran, I had a nightmare I was shooting a shotgun. Very wicked indeed.

 

[sedonaman]

…
He taught us that God is Oft Forgiving:

…

He taught us that God is Most Merciful

…

He taught us to respect our parents

…

**He taught us to respect our neighbors **

…

He taught us that we will not enter paradise because of our own deeds but because of God’s grace.
…

Prophet Mohammed was the solver of youth problems

…

Christianity and Judaism teach all these things, and they did it for centuries before Islam. So why do we need Mohammed?

 

[johnnyjones]

Did one of the recent popes say Catholics and Muslims pray to the one true God?

 

[johnnyjones]

As the topic of this thread is “Mohammed”, I thought it is good to give you some ideas who Mohammed really was. It is obvious that most of you know very few things about Prophet Mohammed’s life and his great teachings.

For Muslims, Mohammed is the ideal person, and we always try to follow his path in everything in life. God chose him to deliver his final revelation because he was a righteous man. We admire him and believe everything he taught us, not because we are naïve or stupid, but because his teachings are so valuable and reasonable that a logical person cannot deny.

He taught us that God is Oft Forgiving:

The Messenger of God (may peace be upon him) said:
God (mighty and sublime be He) said:
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.”

He taught us that God is Most Merciful

Prophet Muhammad said:
‘When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.’

He taught us to respect our parents

The Messenger of God (may peace be upon him) said:
“Whoever pleases his parents has pleased God, and whoever angers them has angered God”

**He taught us to respect our neighbors **

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “He will not enter Paradise whose neighbor is not secure from his wrongful conduct.”

Prophet Mohammed Said:
“He is not a true believer who eats his fill while his neighbour is hungry”

The prophet peace be upon him said:
‘Gabriel continued commending to the neighbor till I thought that he will assign to him a share of the inheritance.’

He taught us that we will not enter paradise because of our own deeds but because of God’s grace.

Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him). said:
“Try your best to do right, and be happy. For none will enter paradise only because of his deeds.” His companions said, “O Messenger of Allah! Not even you?” He replied, “Not even I, unless Allah envelops me in His mercy and grace. And bear in mind that the deed most loved by Allah is one done constantly, even though it is small.”

Prophet Mohammed was the solver of youth problems

A young man came to Prophet Mohammed once and asked him to give him permission to commit adultery. The companions of Prophet Mohammed were very annoyed of this request, and asked him to be silent. But Prophet Mohammed was calm and asked the young man to come close to him. He asked him “would you accept if someone commits adultery with your mother?” he said “oh Prophet of Allah, I wouldn’t accept it”. Then Prophet Mohammed told him “no one would accept it for their own mothers too”, then he asked him “Would you accept it for your daughter?” He said he wouldn’t. Prophet Mohammed told him that no one would accept it for their daughters too. And Prophet Mohammed kept asking him if he would accept it for his sister, aunt, and the man kept saying no. Then Prophet Mohammed placed his hand on the young man’s chest and said “My Lord, forgive him his sin, clean his heart and protect him from committing sins." The young man said later “I swear by God that adultery was the most desired thing to my heart when I went to Prophet Mohammed, and I swear by God that it became the most undesired thing when I left him”.

I can go on and on with many great teachings of Prophet Mohammed, but I keep insisting that our greatest proof that he is the Prophet of God is the Quran. The great teachings of Islam are not brought to us by a man or by satan as some of you claim! If Quran was produced by man, that man should be so great to come up with such a book, yet you don’t seem to admit that Mohammed was a great man! And if it was produced by satan, it would have contained so much evil and wrong things. We can predict the teachings of satan because he would come to delude people and ask them to associate partners with God, worship the creations, and worship all these false things such as idols, cows, fire … etc. But Quran is above all of that. We are worshipping the One True God, and we are believing in all the Prophets and revelations of God. Our religion encourages all that is good and forbids all that is bad. That is why I ask you to read the Quran, and I am sure if you are really seeking the truth, you will definitely find it in Quran.

Are there any verses that address killing infidels or winning people to the Muslim faith by the sword?

 

[sedonaman]

I can go on and on with many great teachings of Prophet Mohammed, but I keep insisting that our greatest proof that he is the Prophet of God is the Quran. The great teachings of Islam are not brought to us by a man or by satan as some of you claim! If Quran was produced by man, that man should be so great to come up with such a book, yet you don’t seem to admit that Mohammed was a great man! And if it was produced by satan, it would have contained so much evil and wrong things. We can predict the teachings of satan because he would come to delude people and ask them to associate partners with God, worship the creations, and worship all these false things such as idols, cows, fire … etc.

As man became smart to Satan’s tricks, Satan had to come up with some new tricks, or rather, the same old tricks with a new spin. Satan is being punished by God for disobedience, and the only way Satan can get back at God is to trick as many men as possible into Hell. Satan is not concerned with those who don’t care about salvation; they are already lost, nor does he waste time on those who are saved. He is after those who are sincerely looking for the Truth. The way to get them to Hell is to offer them a substitute for the Truth (i.e., a religion that rejects what is necessary for salvation), which is what Islam is because it rejects the salvation made possible by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.

But Quran is above all of that. We are worshipping the One True God, and we are believing in all the Prophets and revelations of God. Our religion encourages all that is good and forbids all that is bad.

Even Satan believes in the One True God, His revelations, and the prophets. The Code of Hammurabi encouraged all that is good and forbids all that is bad… thousands of years before Mohammed. Besides, there are other religions that encourage good and forbid evil.

 

[Armyvet007]

Amoon,

A similar list to the one you created for Muhammad can be created for the Buddha, some of the pagan Greek and Roman philosophers, or Confusius [just to name a few]. That doesn’t mean they were prophets of God.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I think if you read the Quran and hadiths your expectations would be worst than that…

Yea I don’t like that either.

As for you, is it hard being a Christian in saudi arabia? I assume its easier since you are a male.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Amoon, all those nice things that Mohammad taught you are the same things my teachers and parents and priest/pastor has taught me over the years.

Moh didn’t need to teach me those things. I already knew those things.

If you think saying nice things makes someone a prophet, then I guess we all are.

If you think acting nice makes someone a prophet, then I guess we all are.

If you think being nice makes someone a prophet I guess we all are.

If you think teaching someone to do good makes someone a prophet, then we all are.

My point is that Mohammad telling people to do good things does not automatically make him a prophet.

 

[Sam_777]

like 54:1 refers to the splitting of the moon etc.

That verse refers to splitting of the moon with the the hour of judgement, and does not say that Muhammed did a miracle or so, if you can read Arabic then this article explains that.

 

[arabic_catholic]

That verse refers to splitting of the moon with the the hour of judgement, and does not say that Muhammed did a miracle or so, if you can read Arabic then this article explains that.

Sam , If I may add , that this verse was according to al manawi (المناوي), a hadith scholar who lived centuries ago , was mentioned first by Imru’ al-Qais who died years before muhammed was even born , in one of his poems. you can find this in his book ( فيض القدير شرح الجامع الصغير ) 2 / 187 ]

now that comes from a muslim scholar , and no reason for him to make up this story! I know muslims will claim that this is not the case but I thought it’s interesting to find this in the islamic books !

even if we took the position that (some) muslims take ,only five people said they saw this miracle !! can we believe that a miracle with this power no one witness it but five !

abdullah ibn abbas

abdullah ibn umar

abdullah ibn masoud

jubair ibn muta’am

anas ibn malik

those the once who supposedly saw it , but the first one was not even 5 or 6 years old when this miracle happen !

since he was not accepted as to be a solider in the battle of bader , because he was not a man yet . and this mircle happen in muhammed time at mecca years before the battle! so he was stil young child

abdullah ibn abbas was born before 3 years before the hijrah ! the mircale supposed to happen at least 5 years before the hijrah , so he didn’t witness it !

Anas was in madina not in mecca ! and he was 10 years old when his mother gave him to serve muhammed in madina , so he was young and not even in mecca !

jubair didn’t became a muslim until the occupation of mecca !and he didn’t see it , he said his father (non-believer) saw it .and his father didn’t even became a muslim !

Abdullah ibn masoud is the only one (by age and time ) that witness it , but in one hadith he says the mircale happend in mecca another time in Mina ,seven km between them !

in one time he says the moon spilt one above the mounten , and other was covered by the mountain , and one time he says in another hadith that the spilt was betwen the right and the left of the mountain !

and that’s why Al-Qurtubi ( famous islamic commentator ) said in commentary at the verse 54:1 , that this mircale will happen at the end of time ,yes he cites other views that says it did happen too,but if muslims have this different idea about the miracle , then I believe it’s good to say , it didn’t happen!

 

[sedonaman]

…I can go on and on with many great teachings of Prophet Mohammed, …

You never answered my question about Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and the Lord’s Prayer I asked in post #87. Are you ignoring it?

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Sam , If I may add , that this verse was according to al manawi (المناوي), a hadith scholar who lived centuries ago , was mentioned first by Imru’ al-Qais who died years before muhammed was even born , in one of his poems. you can find this in his book ( فيض القدير شرح الجامع الصغير ) 2 / 187 ]

now that comes from a muslim scholar , and no reason for him to make up this story! I know muslims will claim that this is not the case but I thought it’s interesting to find this in the islamic books !

even if we took the position that (some) muslims take ,only five people said they saw this miracle !! can we believe that a miracle with this power no one witness it but five !

abdullah ibn abbas

abdullah ibn umar

abdullah ibn masoud

jubair ibn muta’am

anas ibn malik

those the once who supposedly saw it , but the first one was not even 5 or 6 years old when this miracle happen !

since he was not accepted as to be a solider in the battle of bader , because he was not a man yet . and this mircle happen in muhammed time at mecca years before the battle! so he was stil young child

abdullah ibn abbas was born before 3 years before the hijrah ! the mircale supposed to happen at least 5 years before the hijrah , so he didn’t witness it !

Anas was in madina not in mecca ! and he was 10 years old when his mother gave him to serve muhammed in madina , so he was young and not even in mecca !

jubair didn’t became a muslim until the occupation of mecca !and he didn’t see it , he said his father (non-believer) saw it .and his father didn’t even became a muslim !

Abdullah ibn masoud is the only one (by age and time ) that witness it , but in one hadith he says the mircale happend in mecca another time in Mina ,seven km between them !

in one time he says the moon spilt one above the mounten , and other was covered by the mountain , and one time he says in another hadith that the spilt was betwen the right and the left of the mountain !

and that’s why Al-Qurtubi ( famous islamic commentator ) said in commentary at the verse 54:1 , that this mircale will happen at the end of time ,yes he cites other views that says it did happen too,but if muslims have this different idea about the miracle , then I believe it’s good to say , it didn’t happen!

This was interesting. I think, however, the disagreement is over what the verse is referring to, since as Sam points out it is somewhat ambiguous. I do not believe there is disagreement over the event. The Quran’s style is often quite ambiguous and with many verses the scholars differ, which can be somewhat confusing. There are of course more ‘standard’ interpretations. I’m no expert, but I have a few commentaries, unfortunately I only have Vol 1 of Qurtubi. Jalalayn refers to the splitting moon miracle as does Ma’ariful Quran by the contemporary scholar Taqi Usmani. Interestingly the latter quotes Tahawi and ibn Kathir as stating the Hadiths about the ‘miracle’ are mutawatrir or come through mass transmission (the names you mention are merely the narrators). Generally spreaking, denial of mutawatir transmissions is an act of disbelief, so that would mean (at least some) Muslims view the splitting of the moon as a necessary part of their religion. I don’t think it’s really our concern to analyse Islamic sources to see whether Muhammed did miracles, because true or otherwise Sunni Muslims do believe Muhammed had miracles. It would be pretty shoddy effort at prophethood if they thought he didn’t and that’s perhaps why we’d like this to be true as it’s more comfortable, but realistically we can’t really say it. On a side point Usmani also quotes the Maharajah of India at the time recorded the event in his diary in the history book Tarikh-e-Farishtah!
Anyway, the original point was not about this event per se, but just that Muslims believe Muhammed came with miracles… Ultimately because they are human and not idiots they believe for the same types of reasons as we do.

 

[sedonaman]

…Anyway, the original point was not about this event per se, but just that Muslims believe Muhammed came with miracles… Ultimately because they are human and not idiots they believe for the same types of reasons as we do.

This study biblestudying.net/islam1.html claims that Mohammed admittedly performed no miracles:

‘Why has no sign been sent down to him by his Lord?’(Koran, p. 177, 13:5 and 25, 4th Para.)

Nothing hinders us from giving signs except that the ancients disbelieved them. (Koran, p. 201, 17:58, 3rd Para.)

let him show us some sign, as did the apostles in days gone by.’(Koran, p. 227, 21:1, 4th Para. - 21:6, 1st Para.)

‘Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?’(Koran, p. 227, 20:132, 2nd Para.)

N.J. Dawood, in the introduction to his translation of the Koran, similarly states the following:

“Muhammed, who disclaimed power to perform miracles, firmly believed that he was the messenger of God, sent forth to confirm previous scriptures.” (Koran, p. 2.)

On the one hand, Mohammed performs no miracles. So, in order to demonstrate that he is not making up the Koran by himself, he must appeal to previous apostles and scriptures as confirmation of his validity. The frequency with which Mohammed does so itself demonstrates that it is absolutely necessary for him to do so and that he understands this necessity.