Mohammeds last words

[dzheremi]

No, that is not what they say. They agree we had those prophets and from their point of view these prophets gave true examples of what it meant to be prophets of God. They (prophets) were Muslims because they submitted to God, the same God which they claim they worship now. Over the years Jews and Christians deviated from what the prophets had taught and even scandalized them by inserting in false stories about them. They believe all prophets were human (including Jesus). Especially for Jesus, Christians have put man to the level of God.

I see. Thank you for the correction, Ruben. This still makes very little sense to me, though. As far as I can tell, Muhammad never travelled outside of Arabia except to a little corner of Jordan and to Ethiopia. Unless he saw Christians in those places making shrines out of the graves of Christian (er, Muslim) prophets in those places, what would he have been basing his condemnation of us on?

Also, it still makes very little sense to say “their prophets” if Islam’s prophets and our prophets are one and the same. Wouldn’t it be less confusing if he had said “our prophets”? It doesn’t make sense to talk about prophets of other religions if you do not believe that there are other religions in the first place (e.g., that Christianity and Judaism are ‘perversions’ of Islam that Muhammad corrected).

 

[Reuben_J]

I see. Thank you for the correction, Ruben. This still makes very little sense to me, though. As far as I can tell, Muhammad never travelled outside of Arabia except to a little corner of Jordan and to Ethiopia. Unless he saw Christians in those places making shrines out of the graves of Christian (er, Muslim) prophets in those places, what would he have been basing his condemnation of us on?

Also, it still makes very little sense to say “their prophets” if Islam’s prophets and our prophets are one and the same. Wouldn’t it be less confusing if he had said “our prophets”? It doesn’t make sense to talk about prophets of other religions if you do not believe that there are other religions in the first place (e.g., that Christianity and Judaism are ‘perversions’ of Islam that Muhammad corrected).

What irony - I hope I don’t become an apologetic for the Muslims.

They will tell you that you start with a wrong premise. It is not what Mohammad saw. The fact that Mohammad did not travel strengthen their argument that the Quran is the word of Allah. How could Mohammad had known if Allah did not tell him?

You got a point there - the way they say it makes little sense. I guess I understand what they are trying to say though, my explanation notwithstanding.

My problem with them basically is their assertion that the Bible is corrupt. This is convenient scapegoat for them to justifiy their differences with us.

 

[dzheremi]

What irony - I hope I don’t become an apologetic for the Muslims.

Hahaha. I think you’ve got a ways to go, Ruben. I will save my worries in case I start seeing Islamic honorifics appear after Muhammads name in your posts…

They will tell you that you start with a wrong premise. It is not what Mohammad saw. The fact that Mohammad did not travel strengthen their argument that the Quran is the word of Allah. How could Mohammad had known if Allah did not tell him?

Of course, of course…but as I am not a Muslim, I can’t accept that. “Because Allah said so” is always converted in my mind to “Because Muhammad said that Allah said”, since of course his revelations had no external witness either! Funny how charges of a lack of evidence only ever get affixed to other peoples’ scriptures.

 

[famdigy]

I have been looking at some past posts and I found something quite disturbing. It`s Mohammeds last words before he died:

"MUHAMMAD: “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of the prophets.” Bukhari, Vol. 1, #427 [Muhammad had been poisoned years earlier by a Jewish woman whose husband was killed by the Muslims and the poison had slowly worked its effect. He said this while dying in the arms of his wife Aisha]. "

I wanted to ask our Muslim brothers and sisters wether this is true or not. If it is, what is your opinion on it and how do you justify this?

The time gap between when he supposedly ingested the poison and when he passed away is 4 years. Do you know of any poison that takes 4 years to kill someone? I don’t, and I’m sure you can verify this with a toxicologist. This hadith is another concoction of Muhammad’s (pbuh&hf) enemies, and I don’t mean the Jews and Christians.

Also, him dying in the arms of Aisha is another fabrication, according to us, he died in the arms of his brother in law, Ali ibn Abi Talib (as)

Holy Prophet while on his deathbed said: “Bring my brother to me.” Ali was called in. The Holy Prophet covered him with his blanket and rested his head upon him.
When Ali came out, people asked him: “Ali! What did the Holy Prophet tell you?”
The Imam said, “The holy prophet has taught me 1,000 chapters of knowledge and each of those chapters consists of 1,000 chapters.”

 

[Reuben_J]

Hahaha. I think you’ve got a ways to go, Ruben. I will save my worries in case I start seeing Islamic honorifics appear after Muhammads name in your posts…

That will never happen as Jesus is my Rock and my Firm Foundation, my Lord and my God.

In normal situation, when I am not unreasonably provoked, I try not to spite or ridicule Mohammad. I will not use the PBUH after his name though. But should I do, it will be in the Christian context – that God will be merciful to his soul.

Of course, of course…but as I am not a Muslim, I can’t accept that. “Because Allah said so” is always converted in my mind to “Because Muhammad said that Allah said”, since of course his revelations had no external witness either! Funny how charges of a lack of evidence only ever get affixed to other peoples’ scriptures.

I wish they accord the same standard to Paul. Allah said so to Mohammad; why can’t the Lord said so to Paul?

Thanks dzheremi for the laughter which I don’t get very often around here. I like inJESUS posts because she often mixes them with humor sometimes (of course at the expense of the Muslims – too bad for them).

 

[famdigy]

That will never happen as Jesus is my Rock and my Firm Foundation, my Lord and my God.

What a shame it would be for you to have worked so hard in believing and following only to find out that Jesus was not God.

I suppose you can say the same to me.

 

[GodIsGracious]

What a shame it would be for you to have worked so hard in believing and following only to find out that Jesus was not God.

I suppose you can say the same to me.

And we do.

 

[seraphime2008]

in normal situation, when I am not unreasonably provoked, I try not to spite or ridicule Mohammad. I will not use the PBUH after his name though. But should I do, it will be in the Christian context – that God will be merciful to his soul.

I also wonder why Muslim keep repeating PBUH after Muhammad, aren’t they sure enough that he has rest in peace?
We never put and will ask Muslim not to put PBUH after Jesus! He…he…

 

[famdigy]

I also wonder why Muslim keep repeating PBUH after Muhammad, aren’t they sure enough that he has rest in peace?
We never put and will ask Muslim not to put PBUH after Jesus! He…he…

It is because of an honour God bestowed on the Holy Prophet (pbuh&hf).

[33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

The Muslims asked the Holy Prophet: “How are we to seek blessings on you?” He said: “Say: 'O Allah, send blessings on Muhammad and on the progeny of Muhammad.”

 

[seraphime2008]

The Muslims asked the Holy Prophet: “How are we to seek blessings on you?” He said: “Say: 'O Allah, send blessings on Muhammad and on the progeny of Muhammad.”

So Muhammad out of his uncertainty whether he has been blessed by Allah, asked his follower to first asked blessing for him ? And he even include his family? What a very convenient way of pushing his own interest first!

 

[Reuben_J]

I also wonder why Muslim keep repeating PBUH after Muhammad, aren’t they sure enough that he has rest in peace?
We never put and will ask Muslim not to put PBUH after Jesus! He…he…

Well, lots of things screwed up in Islam. This is one of them. Others like Mary the daughter of Aaron and Ishmael the son that was near sacrificed by Abraham.

PBUH = Peace Be Upon Him. Mohammed surely knew about this and Muslims are being had. He wanted to be prayed for after death knowing the sins and the deviation that he had spewed as he fell to the oppression of the Evil One a.k.a. the so-called angel Gabriel.

PBUH is certainly no blessing or exaltation. It is a petition to God to give him peace. That means to rest in peace; to have mercy on him and not to put him in hell. The billion of Muslims saying and unconsciously praying this may well be heard by God who always has this compassion for the people.

 

[Reuben_J]

What a shame it would be for you to have worked so hard in believing and following only to find out that Jesus was not God.

I suppose you can say the same to me.

Well, you said it even before I can comment. But I comment anyway. Having proclaimed that Jesus is my God means I live my life according to the person of Jesus. This means accepting Jesus as my Lord and my Savior and it entails that I live according to his teachings and revelations as per the Church Magestrium, the Bible and the Sacred Tradition of the Church.

You said it is a pity that I have this belief. I challenge you to point out to me any of the values and teachings as espoused by the mentioned sources that will put my salvation in jeopardy. Please point out to me if these values and teachings will make me a bad person and be destined to hell.

And please remember – none of these teachings include condoning pedophilia, multiple wives, revenge, murder, incest, adultery, stealing and lying. It teaches me to love the Lord my God with all my heart, my mind, my strength and my soul. It teaches me to love my neighbor as I love myself.

Now please tell me why is that such a pity? Why is it a pity that Jesus has died, risen and will come again so that I can be saved by believing?

 

[elwill]

Thank you for your answer to my question, elwill, but I think you have misunderstood the meaning of it.

I am wondering how it could be that Christians or Jews made any sort of shrine of any of their prophets’ graves if, according to Islam, all of the prophets that we take to have preached either religion were actually Muslims. Islam says that all of these men were in fact MUSLIM, so there are no Christian or Jewish prophets, are there? My question is not about what Muhammad meant when he supposedly said those words, but how those words could be reconciled with the basic belief in Islam that all past prophets were Muslims. If there are no Christian or Jewish prophets to begin with (because they’re all Muslims), then whose graves were we making shrines of? If the answer is just “the prophets” (meaning, the men of God who you claim the Islamic Allah has sent), then why did Muhammad apparently specify “Christians and Jews” as though there is a different set of prophets only for Islam (so, as though Islam is not the restoration of the ‘original’ religion of God, as it claims to be)? Didn’t Muhammad know what his own religion taught regarding this particular subject?

the prophets didn’t allowed them or command them to make that , the next generations made it opposing the teaching of thier prophets

for example , similar message is repeated in the Book of Deuteronomy Ch. No. 5, Verses 7 to 9:
Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God. [Book of Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

 

[elwill]

the main point of the hadeeth is about building church or mosques over the graves , it dosn’t point out worshipiing of these graves
the problem is about what some ignorants from next genertions through the time direct thiere prayer to the owners of these graves beside the God the creator
mohammed (pbuh) wanted to prevent the probability of this practise to happen with his grave

christians are opposing the teaching of thier bible by forwarding thier prayer to the image of jesus or mary , even if jesus is god they should’nt make any image for him either

you know what ? , they have to worsip him without any images , exactly as muslims do with thier God
Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God. [Book of Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

 

[dzheremi]

Elwill: What then do you make of Exodus 25:18-20, where GOD Himself tells Moses to make figures of cherubim?

Clearly God makes a distinction by intention that you are not making. Is there not a relatively widely accepted hadith (I believe it is from al-Khattab, but don’t quote me on that) which says “actions are but by intention”, meaning (as was explained to me by a Muslim on this board) that it is by the intention with which you undertake an action that you are rewarded? Granted, this was apparently in reference to the hijrah, but still…it is most uncharitable that you, in addtion to presuming that you know better than God regarding when it is right to make a figure of something (I won’t call it an idol, since God would obviously NOT have told Moses to make an idol!), take it upon yourself to try to tell me that my people have sinned by the manner in which they have come forth to worship God! If the Orthodox prostrate themselves you can say that this is Islamically permissable and even good (since Muslim do similar), but then when it is pointed out to you the intention of the prayer (to worship the holy trinity, undivided and without beginning, the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit, worshipped in unity), probably you won’t find it so good anymore. I had this same sort of discussion with the poster “Sister Amy” a little while ago when I objected to her calling the Lord’s Prayer Islamic when, by intention, it is not.

This is a big danger in the retroactive thinking of Islam that claims all past prophets for itself: Their messages become distorted, not because the Christians or the Jews have made them so, but because the Muslims have had to manipulate them in order to make them fit with Islam. Surely I won’t have to wait until morning to hear how the verse in Exodus is actually another “corruption”…yawn…

 

[GodIsGracious]

the main point of the hadeeth is about building church or mosques over the graves , it dosn’t point out worshipiing of these graves
the problem is about what some ignorants from next genertions through the time direct thiere prayer to the owners of these graves beside the God the creator
mohammed (pbuh) wanted to prevent the probability of this practise to happen with his grave

christians are opposing the teaching of thier bible by forwarding thier prayer to the image of jesus or mary , even if jesus is god they should’nt make any image for him either

you know what ? , they have to worsip him without any images , exactly as muslims do with thier God
Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God. [Book of Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

You are COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTANDING what it is that Catholics do.

We do not “pray to” images or idols. We do not “pray to” Mary. We ASK FOR their intercessions and help. We ASK FOR them to pray for us TO GOD. Asking for something is NOT a prayer. Sometimes you hear us say, “pray to Mary,” in this context, we are NOT saying we Pray to her, but we are asking for her intercessions. The thing about English is there is a LOT of nuances with the English language, and many words and phrases have synonyms which mean different things under different contexts.

We keep telling you what it means. You keep insisting on this so this tells me you keep on insisting on getting it wrong. You insist on not educating yourself to what Catholics do. You insist on being ignorant of our faith and practices.

The unfortunate thing is that this insistence on wanting to stay ignorant keeps you from the truth, and The Truth.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

I also wonder why Muslim keep repeating PBUH after Muhammad, …

Muslims respect all the Prophets & when we write or utter any Prophet’s name , we ask Allah to send His blessings on him/them . It’s not that Prophets need our dua/prayer , it’s out of love & respect , we use respectful words before & after the name of any Prophet .

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

…The Imam said, “The holy prophet has taught me 1,000 chapters of knowledge and each of those chapters consists of 1,000 chapters.”

Pl. give me the source , thanks.

 

[meedo]

It’s ironic that Muslims have made Mohammed’s tomb a place of worship (a mosque).

Door to the tomb of Mohammed: flickr.com/photos/chinx786/2334304587/

That is not true.

Muslims buried the prophet Muhammed where he died. He died in his room . His room was ‘‘adjacent’’ to an ALREADY built Mosque. As the Mosque expanded along the years the room appears more and more to be part of the Mosque but it isnt .

You cannot pray in the room , nor towards the tomb. Nor enter the room. The Tomb and the room are NOT part of the Mosque and the Mosque was not built on-top of it or because of the occasion of the tomb existence.

 

[famdigy]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **
Pl. give me the source , thanks.

Much of the knowledge of the Prophet was transferred to Imam Ali (AS) when the Prophet was taking his last breath:

Imam Ali said: "The Messenger of Allah at that time (before his last breath) taught me a thousand chapters of knowledge, every one of which opened for me one thousand other chapters."

Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v1, p392
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by al-Hafidh Abu Nu’aym
Nuskhatah, by Abu Ahmad al-Faradi