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PolarGuy
Guest
My take on this will be different than perhaps expected. Please bear with me.
Let me start by saying this – I do NOT fault the doctor, and I don’t think much of the mother.
Let me start by saying this – I do NOT fault the doctor, and I don’t think much of the mother.
- First off, doctors today practice defensive medicine. The doctor who “advised her to have an abortion” was likely required to tell her that, by the hospital; his insurer; or both, or at least to offer it as an option. Sometimes the law requires it (see below). Basically any pregnancy like this one requires the doctor to say what he said. Sad, but it’s reality. Could he have said it more gently? There’s no good way to say it.
- These days, “wrongful life” suits – where parents sue for the cost of lifetime care where the parents were not offered the choice to abort their baby – are all the rage, and lawyers love them because the damages can be astronomical.
- Would the doctor have said the baby was “perfect” if the baby had been born with a hole in his heart; encephalopathy; zika virus; or a million other conditions? Do we want our doctors to just routinely say every baby is “perfect,” no matter how ill the child is?
- If mom really wanted “closure,” she’d mail the letter and close it. Did she do that? *No, she posted it on facebook. * Worse, she didn’t even post it on her own page (that probably no one reads); she posted it on a third party page to get it read by others. She wanted “closure?” BUNK – she’s some nameless mom who wanted to be a story and is getting her 15 minutes of fame. I’m sorry, I see mom as being a publicity hound, and no one will care who she is tomorrow.
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ArielRussu
Guest
Truth!
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RPRPsych
Guest
+1. Antics like this look good to the crowd, but have absolutely zip to do with the true pro-life movement, or the genuine difficulties faced by the parents of children with disabilities.
“And it’s a hollow rebellion,
Like rebellions mostly are
It’s just another raging tempest
In a jar…”
(Thank you, Don Henley.
)
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Allegra
Guest
I like the letter. I don’t know of any state where doctors are required to tell women that they recommend an abortion. They SHOULD tell women if their child has Downs, but that doesn’t require hammering into them the idea that their child will have no quality of life and is better off dead. I might be coming at this from another angle, but I know of two poor, single mothers who were encouraged to abort by doctors who were flat out lying about the child’s condition. In one case, the mother was told the child’s organs were outside her body and she couldn’t survive birth. This was the story until the child was too old to be legally aborted in our state and then she suddenly made a miraculous recovery and her organs osmosized their way back into her rib cage. The ought to be some sort of responsible middle ground between insisting a mother off her own baby and lying about her child’s condition!
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RPRPsych
Guest
I fully agree with you on a middle ground. There should be no requirement on the part of doctors to advice abortion, and even if there is, doctors should not be craven enough to bow to it without any resistance.
I also agree that mothers who defy secular values and carry such pregnancies to term are a valuable witness to the pro-life movement and the sanctity of life, and they deserve nothing but praise.
However: a letter on Facebook? Facebook, the shrine of Internet drama and petty “social justice” wars? If this letter had gone to, say, Priests for Life (or the Protestant equivalent), and they’d published the testimony, this would carry more weight. I doubt Jesus or the Apostles or Saints would want to take part in Facebook, Twitter or Tumblr drama. That’s where she lost me.
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St_Francis
Guest
My impression was that her doctor told her about the DS, and was unsupportive of her decision to continue the pregnancy. And my impression about her friend was that her friend had also been told about her baby’s DS, but her doctor was supportive of her decision. The mother who wrote the letter seems to have wanted to share her experience so that other doctors, and perhaps her own, would respond supportively in this type of situation.
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angell1
Guest
you may have your opinions about facebook, but I have had positive experiencesI fully agree with you on a middle ground. There should be no requirement on the part of doctors to advice abortion, and even if there is, doctors should not be craven enough to bow to it without any resistance.
I also agree that mothers who defy secular values and carry such pregnancies to term are a valuable witness to the pro-life movement and the sanctity of life, and they deserve nothing but praise.
However: a letter on Facebook? Facebook, the shrine of Internet drama and petty “social justice” wars? If this letter had gone to, say, Priests for Life (or the Protestant equivalent), and they’d published the testimony, this would carry more weight. I doubt Jesus or the Apostles or Saints would want to take part in Facebook, Twitter or Tumblr drama. That’s where she lost me.
I post plenty of catholic stuff and have gotten asked about it. one protestant girl I know, who thought the church didn’t let people wear jeans actually ended up attending a mass to see what it was like.
another friend who was an atheist met a catholic and also saw my posts and was encouraged to ask me questions. I suggested her to meet with a priest and she actually did and is attending mass pretty frequently. she is thinking of conversion.
on the other hand, I have also had people block me based on my posts. it’s not anything offensive, they just don’t want to see religious stuff, I guess. so much for “tolerance” and freedom of speech
because facebook is so secular, it is a good ground for things like that. you never know how God will use it to touch someone.
I’m not forcing you to change your opinion, obviously, you have your own preferences, it certainly isn’t for everyone. just offering another perspective.
and maybe she did send it out to other places, who knows
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PolarGuy
Guest
Monicad, although I can respect your post, I would like to respectfully reply to yours, knowing that this is an emotional issue.
What would be a good reason to me to seek publicity about my child? When my child does something great, like, say, runs a food drive for the homeless (as my daughter did, twice). Newspaper stories aren’t about routine things or people who accomplish nothing. There’s really not many good way to “get PR” when all I’m trying to say is “my child has Downs.” I’m sorry, I find the mom’s actions to be closer to Kim Kardashian than anything else here. If she wants to find closure, she can do so, but what she did isn’t closure; it’s the total opposite of seeking closure: It’s “let’s misuse my daughter’s diagnosis to stir the pot, emote, and vent my bitterness, knowing full well that no one can respond because I’m a sympathetic figure.”
For that matter, how *can *the doctor respond to say, “your letter is inaccurate?” Answer: He can’t. If you write to me I can answer. If you address the letter to me and post it to the world, you’re not writing to me; you’re writing to make a point I can’t respond to.
Further, I’m sorry, but there is really no evidence that the woman was “hounded” (your words, not hers, unless I missed it) to have an abortion. It may seem to an outsider that you are projecting your own opinions to the piece.
Why do I think that the abortion rate for a diagnosis of Down syndrome is over 90%? Many reasons, none of which are good, but all of which are understandable, including:
–Terror that the parents’ lives will be altered for the worse, maybe past the point that the parents can cope;
–Fear of needing to care for the child forever;
–Fear that the child will be subjected to ridicule or worse, i.e., sexual assault;
–Genuine lack of social services or $ for care;
–Pressure. I’m sure it happens, but I’m sure its far from the only reason (and likely not the main reason).
As to why I find it a problem that a physician would call a child with a disability “perfect,” it’s because the child isn’t perfect in the context of why the parents ask the question. If I ask a doctor, “how’s my baby?” and he responds, “the baby’s perfect,” I will assume the child is healthy…but the child isn’t healthy. The doctor has basically lied to me. I have a major problem with that.
Facebook is great for showing friends your vacation pictures, and wasting time. Little else.
What would be a good reason to me to seek publicity about my child? When my child does something great, like, say, runs a food drive for the homeless (as my daughter did, twice). Newspaper stories aren’t about routine things or people who accomplish nothing. There’s really not many good way to “get PR” when all I’m trying to say is “my child has Downs.” I’m sorry, I find the mom’s actions to be closer to Kim Kardashian than anything else here. If she wants to find closure, she can do so, but what she did isn’t closure; it’s the total opposite of seeking closure: It’s “let’s misuse my daughter’s diagnosis to stir the pot, emote, and vent my bitterness, knowing full well that no one can respond because I’m a sympathetic figure.”
For that matter, how *can *the doctor respond to say, “your letter is inaccurate?” Answer: He can’t. If you write to me I can answer. If you address the letter to me and post it to the world, you’re not writing to me; you’re writing to make a point I can’t respond to.
Further, I’m sorry, but there is really no evidence that the woman was “hounded” (your words, not hers, unless I missed it) to have an abortion. It may seem to an outsider that you are projecting your own opinions to the piece.
Why do I think that the abortion rate for a diagnosis of Down syndrome is over 90%? Many reasons, none of which are good, but all of which are understandable, including:
–Terror that the parents’ lives will be altered for the worse, maybe past the point that the parents can cope;
–Fear of needing to care for the child forever;
–Fear that the child will be subjected to ridicule or worse, i.e., sexual assault;
–Genuine lack of social services or $ for care;
–Pressure. I’m sure it happens, but I’m sure its far from the only reason (and likely not the main reason).
As to why I find it a problem that a physician would call a child with a disability “perfect,” it’s because the child isn’t perfect in the context of why the parents ask the question. If I ask a doctor, “how’s my baby?” and he responds, “the baby’s perfect,” I will assume the child is healthy…but the child isn’t healthy. The doctor has basically lied to me. I have a major problem with that.
Facebook is great for showing friends your vacation pictures, and wasting time. Little else.
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ArielRussu
Guest
What? I don’t understand what you mean.+1. Antics like this look good to the crowd, but have absolutely zip to do with the true pro-life movement, or the genuine difficulties faced by the parents of children with disabilities.
“And it’s a hollow rebellion,
Like rebellions mostly are
It’s just another raging tempest
In a jar…”
(Thank you, Don Henley.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
When I had my last baby I was almost 40, so higher risk for Downs. My doctor was a prolife doctor, and would never recommend abortion.
I know similar stories. My cousin’ baby was supposedly suffering from dwarfism. He’s 13 now, he’s not very tall, but both his parents are not tall either. Yet they were told to consider abortion due to too many issues.
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pensmama87
Guest
One of my sons had a soft marker for Down Syndrome and so I had a couple additional scans. I had a meeting with a geneticist and one of the first things she told me was that it was too bad they caught it so late or I could have “done something.” It was recommended that in the future I do genetics testing and earlier sonograms.When I had my last baby I was almost 40, so higher risk for Downs. My doctor was a prolife doctor, and would never recommend abortion.
I know similar stories. My cousin’ baby was supposedly suffering from dwarfism. He’s 13 now, he’s not very tall, but both his parents are not tall either. Yet they were told to consider abortion due to too many issues.
Nope, don’t think I will, thanks. (She told me this AFTER my last scan indicated my son probably did not have DS, and he doesn’t. But apparently the mere threat that he may not be absolutely perfect…)
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RPRPsych
Guest
I was agreeing with you and pointing out that this woman’s taking the issue to Facebook was not constructive.
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E_7
Guest
Why do pregnant mothers have to take the syndrome test if they plan to have the child anyway?
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Because being able to use those 6 months or so to look for a more flexible and/or higher paying job, move closer to family that can help, seek out resources for special needs babies and their parents, etc is extremely beneficial for families.
Even if a woman doesn’t plan on aborting, there are things that can be done to ease the burden of what’s to come.
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E_7
Guest
But I heard the tests aren’t 100% accurate. What’s the use of feeling worried throughout the remaining days of pregnancy because of a test result that might not be true when the child is born? After moving and changing course, what if the child is born healthy? In the end, wouldn’t it be better make any decisions after the child is born?
Personally, I would rather plan for income, support, and resources that I don’t need than not plan and have my world turned upside down the day I become a mother.
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pensmama87
Guest
You don’t have to take the test, and in many cases it is incredibly expensive. Our insurance covered it if I was over the age of 35, but since I am not, the blood test would have cost us about $3000.
I decided that while we waited, I’d research DS support groups and doctors in the area just in case.
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E_7
Guest
I see. In our case, we were in Singapore at the time, and were planning to move for delivery in the States. I’m not sure it was covered by the insurance, but we refused to take the test (called the OSCAR) because it didn’t make any difference for us. The Obgyn understood, but the receptionists looked me like if I was an irresponsible mom or something.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
I suppose there are two issues here. One is “is this mother in the right on her take on this situation” and the other is “Even if she is right, was she right to make it public”. (You could say the same about, say, the mother of Emmitt Till giving permission for his dead body to be photographed, that “well obviously lynching is wrong, but it’s not a reason to seek publicity”.)
Also, I’ve noticed a tendency in many medical topics to assume all doctors have some kind of hive mind and all act the same way. This is far from the truth. Yes, there are doctors who are very pro-abortion, and also those who aren’t gung-ho about abortion but feel compelled to offer it as an option as a CYA maneuver, but there are also those who are pro-life. I recall seeing such a doctor, a specialist in the care of premature babies, interviewed on Catholic television. She did work in a Catholic hospital, that had perinatal hospice.
On the other hand, one woman’s response to that program was “how horrible, a religion that forces women to give birth to babies they know will die”. She wasn’t even thinking about the costs here. Some actually DO think that giving birth to a disabled child is a horrible tragedy that should be avoided at all costs.
I also have heard directly from women who gave birth to babies with poor prognoses, who did state that the doctors who treated them really made it out like “abortion is the only option”, but they actually did seek out other providers who didn’t agree.
I even recall a doctor I know from RL talking about how his sister’s OB recommended abortion based on a early prenatal test, who was appalled at how his sister was really pushed to have an abortion as if that was the only option. So, not all doctors have a hive mind about this issue. I get a feeling that the mother was trying to reach doctors who aren’t really committed to “abortion rights” but may be overlooking how hurtful their behavior can be to their patients.
Without going too far into banned “medical advice”; not all prenatal screening is the same. Many of the prenatal blood tests done in early pregnancy are indeed far from 100% accurate. But a karyotype from amniotic fluid showing an extra 21st chromosome, or an ultrasound showing a child is missing most of the brain, are far more accurate.
Also, I’ve noticed a tendency in many medical topics to assume all doctors have some kind of hive mind and all act the same way. This is far from the truth. Yes, there are doctors who are very pro-abortion, and also those who aren’t gung-ho about abortion but feel compelled to offer it as an option as a CYA maneuver, but there are also those who are pro-life. I recall seeing such a doctor, a specialist in the care of premature babies, interviewed on Catholic television. She did work in a Catholic hospital, that had perinatal hospice.
On the other hand, one woman’s response to that program was “how horrible, a religion that forces women to give birth to babies they know will die”. She wasn’t even thinking about the costs here. Some actually DO think that giving birth to a disabled child is a horrible tragedy that should be avoided at all costs.
I also have heard directly from women who gave birth to babies with poor prognoses, who did state that the doctors who treated them really made it out like “abortion is the only option”, but they actually did seek out other providers who didn’t agree.
I even recall a doctor I know from RL talking about how his sister’s OB recommended abortion based on a early prenatal test, who was appalled at how his sister was really pushed to have an abortion as if that was the only option. So, not all doctors have a hive mind about this issue. I get a feeling that the mother was trying to reach doctors who aren’t really committed to “abortion rights” but may be overlooking how hurtful their behavior can be to their patients.
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