Monastic Diurnal vs. Full Divine Office

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mattwcu

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Hello,

Right now I’m praying the modern LOTH using the Christian Prayer book from Catholic Book Pub. And while I absolutely love praying with the Church at all of the hours, sometimes the language is so bland it is difficult to pray with. Also, I would really like to have the Office of Readings.

So I am torn between these two problems. I am trying to hold out for Baronius’ Press edition of the Breviary but when I see the Monastic Diurnal on sale for $62 I feel like I could replace my Christian Prayer with it and gain all the benefits of the better prayer language. However, if I shelled out an extra $60 I could just get the full LOTH with the Office of Readings.

So I guess my question is two fold. What is the difference between the 1963 Monastic Diurnal and the full breviary? The Diurnal is a single volume with Benedictine Calendar but the old Breviary with secular calendar is two or three volumes. Is it JUST the absence of Matins in the Diurnal that makes the essential difference in size??

As second, in anyone’s opinion, which is of greater benefit, the Matins/Readings or using a prayer language which better suits me?
 
The Diurnal is only the day hours, that is lauds, prime, terce, sext, none, vespers, and compline. Whereas, the full Breviary includes also matins.

Matins is what is post-Vatican II the “Office of Readings”. To my mind, whilst the Psalms provide a more emotional/emotive framework, the readings are real food “for the brain” and really a favourite part of the Office.

Now, the modern Christian Prayer – if memory serves – gives you the ability to pray Morning Prayer (lauds), Prayer During the Day (terce, sext or none – prime being deprecated), Evening Prayer (Vespers), and Night Prayer (Compline).

I know precisely what you mean about language, in fact for compline I use an old translation into English of the pre-Vatican II Breviary – but I don’t do this for language alone, but also structure, because the older Compline was bigger (the new one being somewhat “perfunctory”). However, all of that notwithstanding, if I had to choose between better language (and losing matins) and something with matins/Office of Readings (even if post-Conciliar) I would choose having matins.

The ideal would be the Baronius translation, but in the meantime I would advise you to grow to love the Office of Readings/matins first and get the “full” Liturgy of the Hours.

In addition the Monastic Diurnal is what was used in monasteries, the Psalmody is different and there are some slight structural differences in the Offices. If you’re set on a Diurnal, you might want to get the Diurnale Romanum instead.
 
Thanks for your thorough and learned reply! I’m kind of going back and forth on this one because once I choose one I am looking forward to “settling down” with it so to speak. When I bought the Christian Prayer I realized it was a transitional purchase to something more but I wanted to begin praying with the Church on a deeper an daily level.

I have a feeling I am going to end up collecting them all. 🙂
 
You’re very welcome. Feel free to ask more; I kind of wrote this when hurried, so I might not have covered every aspect of the differences. Besides, this is just my opinion… 👍
 
I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I can’t come to a conclusion. 🙂 Regardless, I think it was a mistake for Catholic Book Pub. to include the music for the Liturgy of the Hours in the Christian Prayer. They could have filled the same space with more readings from the Office of Readings or specifically added the readings for the major feasts.

The problem with the modern language and the slicing of the Psalms I think is less of a problem if you don’t know that its going on. I’ve also learned the ICEL created out of the blue all of the Psalm Prayers. A priest told me to watch out for them because sometimes they try and “undo” what you just prayed in the Psalm to make everything fluffier.

I think part of the advantage of the Diurnal over either version of the LOTH is that you pray with those in the monasteries. I can’t help but be drawn to this idea.

On the other hand, there is no matins. And when I do read the Office of Readings on Universalis.com or from the Christian Prayer I get so much out of it.

Its frustrating but I think the ideal would be a parallel edition of the modern LOTH with updated english and (neo?)vulgate psalter. I suppose the reason they don’t want to do a parallel edition now is that it would expose the Psalm inconsistencies.

Markadm, have you ever used the Diurnal and how does the Psalter differ? How is the structure different?
 
Hi, mattwcu.

I don’t actually own a Diurnale, so I can’t answer that question. However, I do have an old Breviarum Romanum. I do know that the Diurnale is essentially all the daytime Hours (i.e. it excludes matins), but that the arrangement of the Psalter is different.

Big question, “how is the [Psalter] structure different?”, but in a nutshell, in terms of the 1962 Breviarum Romanum (or the 1911 one arguably!):
  • The older Psalter has more Psalms at each Hour, i.e. represents a greater burden (for example, matins can have as many as nine Psalms);
  • The “imprecatory” (cursing) Psalms and other “difficult” verses have not been missed out, unlike the modern LotH (there are three Psalms missed out from the new Psalter!).
I would note that in terms of each Hour, the Breviarum Romanum represents a greater burden, not only in the number of Hours themselves, but also the length of the Hours. If it is the “food” of matins you crave, then unless you have a graduate degree in Latin, I think the best choice right now would be the modern Liturgy of the Hours. I made the switch from Christian Prayer to LotH about a year ago, and am only now considering trying to get to grips with the Breviarum Romanum (again!)

Hope this helps,
Mark 👍
 
Greetings in Christ!

My name is Neil and I’m new to the forum, but the LOTH and the Breviary is one of my favorite subjects.

I try (not very succesfully usually) to say as much of the office as I can.

I use the “Anglican Breviary” which is an excellent translation of the Breviarum Romanum (1911, I believe)

If you can get past the name “Anglican” it is actually an excellent resource. It is everything you need to say all the traditional hours everyday of the year, according to the traditional calendar.

I like to think of it as the “English Breviary” instead of the “Anglican Breviary.”

Matins always has 9 psalms. Sometimes it has 9 lessons and readings as well, and sometimes it only has 3 lessons/readings depending on what kind of day it is (simple, semi-double, double, etc)

The rubrics look complicated throughout the breviary, but if you are familliar with the new Roman breviary (LOTH) then it really isn’t too much different, just fuller and more prayerfull.

I strongly suggest that anyone who is interested in praying the full office of the Church and doesn’t know Latin check out the Anglican Breviary.

The website is: www.anglicanbreviary.net

The Anglican Breviary was re-published single handedly by a very devout Christian man who loves the liturgy of the Church…Check it out and get a copy. I’m glad I did…I take it with me where ever I go!!!

Peace and all good!

Neil
 
Neil,

Good mention. I have the Anglican Breviary too; in fact, it was what first started me out saying the Breviary!

My only concern with it is that it follows the 1911 rubrics and is such more complicated. Mind you, sometimes 1911 in English is easier to understand than 1962 in Latin (my Latin is not very good).
 
Hi Mark

I do my best to follow the rubrics, but I also allow myself flexibility. Prayer and sincerity is what matters in the eyes of the Lord.

Actually I try not to worry about it too much and I find it is actually not that complicated.

What do you find complex? Just curious.

In terms of combining feasts and such, I don’t get too caught up with it. My main rule of thumb is that Sundays take presidence, except of course if a major feast occurs on a Sunday.

Usally major feasts have their own section and they use the Sunday psalms anyway.

As to adding a saints day to a feast, I generraly will only read the collect of the saint in addition to the collect of the feast and if I really feel a devotion to the saint, I’ll add the reading about the saint to the last reading of the 3rd Nocturn.

I spent many years in the Byzantine/Orthodox rite and if you think that the old Roman rubrics are complicated, check out the Byzantine rite. They use about 3-5 books just to say the Daily Office!

Hope this helps

Neil
 
Neil it’s the commemorations and the concurrences I find hard. I got so confused when it was like “Vespers of following, commemoration of preceding” and I found the punnet-square in the front of the book confusing. Live and learn, eh!

I should think myself lucky, considering this was the norm until the Bugnini reforms.
 
Yes, indeed…we are fortuanate…

But the way I look at it is that trying my best to follow the old ways is a small way I can be truely faithful to the “full deposit of faith.”

Again, I think its my Orthodox/Byzantine background that makes me feel this way. In the Byzantine church the attitude is “why do less when you can do more?”

😃

I think the old services are so beautiful…but I don’t want to do them in Latin!

Why can’t we use the vernacular and still have the old services?

Maybe that’s where the Pope is headed…I think the newer services can be rather vulgar…short and boring…they’re certainly valid, if that’s one’s thing…but the old services are so much more prayerfull…

Anyway…enough of my ramblings!

Peace
 
Neil_LA said:
I think the old services are so beautiful…but I don’t want to do them in Latin!

Why can’t we use the vernacular and still have the old services?

Maybe that’s where the Pope is headed…I think the newer services can be rather vulgar…short and boring…they’re certainly valid, if that’s one’s thing…but the old services are so much more prayerfull.
Click to expand...
We may indeed be heading there. He celebrated Mass ‘ad orientem’ in the Sistine Chapel on Sunday. I have heard the Holy Father does ‘old fashioned’ things like double-genuflections… 👍
 
May God Bless the Pope and shower the grace of the Holy Spirit on him!!!

I think its wonderful!
 
The Anglican Breviary site says it is the 1955 version. I assume from what you are both saying that this is really the 1911 version.

Markadm, I appreciate the advice. I have no intention of buying a Latin only Breviarium Romanum. I have 1 volume of it from 1958 that I picked up in a used book store and while its nice…um…well…its all in Latin. 🙂

As for the Anglican Breviary, I’m not too keen on spending the $70 on that if I’m just going to drop approx $200 (assumingly) later on for Baronius English/Latin version 6 months or so from now.

So I think I’ll be getting the modern one for now.

On another note, I’ve been saying the Rosary after Compline (Night Prayer). Its the best time for me to do it, but if I am going to be saying the LOTH more properly, would it be better for me to flip the two and say Compline right after the Rosary or does it not matter much? Thoughts?
 
mattwcu: correct, it was printed in 1955, but it the 1911 Breviary.

I think you’re making the right choice, given all the factors you’ve described. I’m only now appreciating the Latin after praying the English for so long (my Latin is awful, but it is slowly starting to resonate and I get vague memories of the English - I’m still interested to see Baronius’ too, though).

Regarding the rosary, amending it to be before sounds logical, but I have seen people pray it afterwards always. It’s up to you. I think the more important thing is to say Compline near to bed-time, to make a proper examination of conscience, and to get the whole penitential aspect right.
 
Is there a book or online source to help me pray using my 1963 monastic diurnal reprint? The diurnal is confusing. I’ve been praying the LOTH for a number of years but I find the language insipid compared to the older diurnal. Thanks.
 
I just received my copy of the Anglican Breviary a couple days ago–the difference in language (which was what drew me to buy it) is wonderful, but the rubrics are mind-boggling!!!

I’ve prayed the four volume LOTH for years, so I’m completely familiar with the structure of the hours, but the rubrics in the AB go on for pages and pages and pages–literally!!! I have finally decided to just jump in, and learn what’s going on in medias res so to speak. 😃

Btw, years ago, as an Anglican, I had a copy of a much smaller, one-volume edition of the hours. It was far less complicated than the one I just got, and I don’t remember for sure, but it seems to me that it might have been the Monastic Diurnal…
 
The Anglican Breviary can be very difficult at times, but there are a lot of resources out there to help you.

First of all, join this yahoo group if you have an account. They can help you answer questions and there are also a lot of resources there.
groups.yahoo.com/group/divineoffice/

Also, the current ordo is kept updated here I believe:
tinyurl.com/ordo-current

And as I’m sure you already know, the website itself has quite a bit of instructional material on it:
anglicanbreviary.net/instructions.html

I hope that helps. I only recently starting using mine as well, and it can be difficult flipping through all the different sections, but its worth it and the beautiful English should keep you going.
 
markadm said:
The Diurnal is only the day hours, that is lauds, prime, terce, sext, none, vespers, and compline. Whereas, the full Breviary includes also matins.

Matins is what is post-Vatican II the “Office of Readings”. To my mind, whilst the Psalms provide a more emotional/emotive framework, the readings are real food “for the brain” and really a favourite part of the Office.

Now, the modern Christian Prayer – if memory serves – gives you the ability to pray Morning Prayer (lauds), Prayer During the Day (terce, sext or none – prime being deprecated), Evening Prayer (Vespers), and Night Prayer (Compline).

I know precisely what you mean about language, in fact for compline I use an old translation into English of the pre-Vatican II Breviary – but I don’t do this for language alone, but also structure, because the older Compline was bigger (the new one being somewhat “perfunctory”). However, all of that notwithstanding, if I had to choose between better language (and losing matins) and something with matins/Office of Readings (even if post-Conciliar) I would choose having matins.

The ideal would be the Baronius translation, but in the meantime I would advise you to grow to love the Office of Readings/matins first and get the “full” Liturgy of the Hours.

In addition the Monastic Diurnal is what was used in monasteries, the Psalmody is different and there are some slight structural differences in the Offices. If you’re set on a Diurnal, you might want to get the Diurnale Romanum instead.
Click to expand...
Pax†

I know this is an old post, and you all probably know this, but I’ll give the link anyway. There is a seperate book for Matins to accompany the MD:

andrewespress.com/matins.html

God Bless.

CF
 
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