Monastic seating

[JesuXPIPassio]

I’m wondering, how come monasteries have taken up the custom of choir stalls instead of pews and why it’s set up as two aisles facing each other instead of rows facing the altar, like in most churches? Is it meant to enhance meditation?

 

[puzzleannie]

they took up up as recently as the 6th century. that is the meaning of choir–the purpose is for choir style praying of the liturgy of the hours, the primary purpose (after the Mass) for the monks coming together to pray.

 

[NPC]

they took up up as recently as the 6th century. that is the meaning of choir–the purpose is for choir style praying of the liturgy of the hours, the primary purpose (after the Mass) for the monks coming together to pray.

That’s correct - just to elaborate slightly, the psalmody would have been split between the two sides of the chapel. One side would sing the first verse of a psalm and then the other side would answer this by singing the second verse. If there was a concluding doxology it was sung by both sides together. I have participated in a few vespers in which we used this ‘collegiate’ style of singing - it is beautiful and very prayerful! As a slight aside, but as we’re on the topic of stalled chapels, the largest stalled chapel in the world is the college chapel of St Patrick’s Pontifical College in Ireland - Ireland’s national seminary. It is one of the most beautiful chaples I’ve ever been in. There are some photos of it here (scroll down to the 5th post) : archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=4693

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

they took up up as recently as the 6th century. that is the meaning of choir–the purpose is for choir style praying of the liturgy of the hours, the primary purpose (after the Mass) for the monks coming together to pray.

Oh, that makes more sense. In such a case, would the altar be at the head of the chapel, or would it be closer to the middle? I’m curious about this in particular because my parish’s seating is set up monastically; our altar is in the middle, but the presider’s chair is way at the head, and it sometimes strains the neck when one has to look to the head of the church instead of just looking straight ahead.

Was I at least on the mark about why there are stalls instead of pews though? The individual seating would seem to take away the problems with being distracted by the person sitting next to you.

Isn’t it fascinating? I know that these things regarding monasteries have evolved through time to suit with what works them best, and since it’s something most of us never really get to see, it’s fun to learn about their customs. Too bad there aren’t many resources to learn about this with; I read that book about the Carthusians that came out one or two years ago, but it didn’t totally satisfy my interest in monastic customs. Got any suggestions of places I could look at? Websites are preferred, though books would be okay too.

 

[Gertabelle]

Was I at least on the mark about why there are stalls instead of pews though? The individual seating would seem to take away the problems with being distracted by the person sitting next to you.

I was a postulant and novice in a contemplative order for just over two years. The choir stalls are arranged that way for the singing of the liturgical hours – each side taking turns, verse by verse. The altar is usually set at one end of the chapel, with a large empty space down the middle of the choir stalls.

I have only ever seen one Catholic parish set up this way, and like yours, the altar was in the middle, rather than on one end. I think this is a modern (post Vatican II) style of church design, and personally, I find it totally distracting.

The purpose behind the choir stalls, as opposed to pews, is to encourage custody of the eyes and to keep one focused on becoming one with God (MONOstic) rather than developing human relationships. That’s my understanding anyway. Our choir stalls were high enough that we couldn’t see the face of the sister next to us if she was leaning back during prayers. But we were encouraging to sit on the edges of our seats, so I could always see the sister next to me.

And of course, with choir stalls, you can easily keep your hands and arms to yourself at all times.

Gertie

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

I have only ever seen one Catholic parish set up this way, and like yours, the altar was in the middle, rather than on one end. I think this is a modern (post Vatican II) style of church design, and personally, I find it totally distracting.

Yeah, I get what you mean. In my parish, at the Mass I go to there is a lady whom I frankly think is a little weird. It’s hard to describe, but she worships in a distracting way. She kneels at improper times, waves her hands around distractingly, covers herself with a hood during consecration, wears bizarre clothes, does a bunch of other weird things. If our pews faced the front, I’d be able to ignore her, but it’s difficult to do it when she’s right there where I’m facing. I try to just keep my eyes on the floor, but it doesn’t work as well as I’d like. Also I’d much rather keep my eyes up, facing the altar.

There’s another good question: would anyone be able to tell me how I could work through this? I’m trying to take this as something that is my problem and not hers, and I just need to figure out how to worship without being distracted. Taking another seat is an option, but this parish (though it is a Cathedral) is rather small; seating is limited, and even then, because of the peculiar arrangement of the pews and the altar, it still wouldn’t be easy to ignore her. The seating is set up rectangularly, almost circularly, making it hard to find a good spot where I wouldn’t have to worry about being distracted by her.

I guess another option would be to complain to a priest so maybe he could talk with her (and I do know that I’m not the only one who finds it distracting), but I don’t know, that doesn’t feel like the right thing to do for some reason. Any ideas?

 

[NPC]

I guess another option would be to complain to a priest so maybe he could talk with her (and I do know that I’m not the only one who finds it distracting), but I don’t know, that doesn’t feel like the right thing to do for some reason. Any ideas?

Somehow, I don’t think I would feel right going to the priest about something like this - utterly distracting as she may be! That said, if she is actually making noise also, that might be grounds to go to the priest about her. In such a case you could argue that you simply cannot hear what’s going on. A difficult situation, though, because while the priest would not like the congregation becoming distracted, he does not want to cause offense to the lady in question by asking her to stop what might be (to her at least) genuine acts of prayer. Does she sit in the front row? If not, you should sit in front of her so at least she’ll be out of sight! Or maybe if you even sit in the same row as her (not right beside her of course) she might be out of your line of vision. Failing all this, you could always try praying that you can become so engrossed in the Mass that you will not even notice her!

I have only ever seen one Catholic parish set up this way, and like yours, the altar was in the middle, rather than on one end. I think this is a modern (post Vatican II) style of church design, and personally, I find it totally distracting.

There is a church in my home town which was renovated about three years ago and it had the aim of reordering the church to bring it in line with the supposed Vatican II recommendations. The old style was nice with a beautiful high altar, although the church was quite dark. Now the altar is of wood and is located in the centre of the church. They got rid of the pews and now there are individual seats which all face into the nave. I don’t like this setup, although the church is so bright now that it really is a beautiful space. There was a lot of opposition to the project, but the church authorities went ahead with it anyway. One of the main objections was the seating, as well as uproar about the removal of the altar rails. I heard the argument many times that the seating was being reorganised so as to make the people the centre of the Mass - now where did I get the idea that Christ is supposed to be the centre of the Eucharistic celebration?! I think many of these post Vatican II churches and re-organised churches are a disgrace - they were supposed to bring everyone closer to the altar but instead they provide more opportunity for distraction from the altar, and unfortunately there is so often an air of informality and disrespect for what should be a sacred space focused on God.