Money and openness to life?

[SpeakKindly]

How can a young married couple be open to life through NFP, and at the same time, not be worried about finances in the case of having children?

I’m going to be getting married sometime relatively soon I’d say, but I’m not sure how to go about being sexually active, and not concerned a little about not having too much money saved up for children.

 

[3DOCTORS]

For starters, learn to distinguish wants from needs. There’s a tendency to want to have a big wedding, then an expensive honeymoon, to move immediately into a house, and if that’s a “starter home” to progress as quickly as possible to the “dream home.” And to have late-model cars with large payments and insurance is taken for granted by many.

Then there are the children. Fully decorated nurseries, loads of trendy toys, daycare so both parents can have jobs to afford all the debt they’ve accrued before they’re even 30, elaborate birthday parties at rented venues for the little darlings . . .

Okay, so maybe some of this is exaggeration, let’s hope - but do take a good hard look at people around you who tend to spend and to always want the latest thing, or the bigger and better thing - vs. those who economize and live within their means. Pay particular attention to those who have children and whose home may be a little smaller, maybe even a tad shabby or “well loved” - but is filled with laughter and prayer and where the family is close through good times and bad times. :grouphug:

Now I’m getting a little exaggerated on the sentimental side - but it’s a matter of examining what you really value and seeing that there are creative ways to have what will endure, and that sacrifices of luxuries must sometimes be made. The good news is that anyone who lives frugally early on in adult life will be relieved they did. I did not and am struggling to recover some financial stability, so I know whereof I speak.

This is all best accomplished away from the media and its constant drive to get people to consume, consume, consume.

 

[JRKH]

Go ahead and worry, and plan…but trust God.

Do the things that are necessary.
Save every week - even just a little.
Evaluate what are really needs and what are merely “wants” but not necessities.

And know this most of all. Whenever God sends you a child - and you hold that child in your arms for the first time - a great many things about you will change. Things you worried about before will mean almost nothing.
Eating out? Golf? Movies? Cable? Video-consoles? whatever…will all pale in comparison to taking care of this little one.

This doesn’t mean that money problems will disappear - but your perspective will change and you won’t even mind.

So - As I said earlier - start doing what is necessary now. Make smart decisions with every paycheck. Even develop habits that you think will be useful when you do have children.
For instance. Learning to cook instead of eating out can be an enjoyable activity for a young married couple. A deck of cards, board games, and puzzles are a lot cheaper than cable and / video consoles and games.
Shopping at discount and thrift stores instead of the mall saves dollars. Thrift stores can be especially fun since you never know what sort of “treasure” you might find.
Developing “do-it-yourself” skills can also be great ways to save both now and in the future…Whether it be sewing, or simple car maintenance, repairing and/or building things like bookshelves and furniture etc…

Any or all of these kinds of things, or many others, will help you to enjoy your life and save money and so you need worry less.

Just some thoughts…

Peace
James

 

[SpeakKindly]

For starters, learn to distinguish wants from needs. There’s a tendency to want to have a big wedding, then an expensive honeymoon, to move immediately into a house, and if that’s a “starter home” to progress as quickly as possible to the “dream home.” And to have late-model cars with large payments and insurance is taken for granted by many.

Then there are the children. Fully decorated nurseries, loads of trendy toys, daycare so both parents can have jobs to afford all the debt they’ve accrued before they’re even 30, elaborate birthday parties at rented venues for the little darlings . . .

Okay, so maybe some of this is exaggeration, let’s hope - but do take a good hard look at people around you who tend to spend and to always want the latest thing, or the bigger and better thing - vs. those who economize and live within their means. Pay particular attention to those who have children and whose home may be a little smaller, maybe even a tad shabby or “well loved” - but is filled with laughter and prayer and where the family is close through good times and bad times. :grouphug:

Now I’m getting a little exaggerated on the sentimental side - but it’s a matter of examining what you really value and seeing that there are creative ways to have what will endure, and that sacrifices of luxuries must sometimes be made. The good news is that anyone who lives frugally early on in adult life will be relieved they did. I did not and am struggling to recover some financial stability, so I know whereof I speak.

This is all best accomplished away from the media and its constant drive to get people to consume, consume, consume.

Well, we plan on living within our means, and do not want to gain debt.

I’m afraid I tend to think about things too much. lol

I’ll try to explain where I’m coming from. In the past, before agreeing with the Church’s stance on birth control, I probably would have said that a couple could use birth control to not get pregnant, and this would allow them to also have time to save money up for a kid, once they’ve planned for one.

Well, since I have accepted the Church’s stance, I’m just curious how this same concept of preparation should be approached by a Catholic, while still being sexually active with their spouse?

 

[JRKH]

Well, we plan on living within our means, and do not want to gain debt.

I’m afraid I tend to think about things too much. lol

I’ll try to explain where I’m coming from. In the past, before agreeing with the Church’s stance on birth control, I probably would have said that a couple could use birth control to not get pregnant, and this would allow them to also have time to save money up for a kid, once they’ve planned for one.

Well, since I have accepted the Church’s stance, I’m just curious how this same concept of preparation should be approached by a Catholic, while still being sexually active with their spouse?

Nothing really changes. Simply employ NFP techniques instead of ABC. You can still be sexually active.

Peace
James

 

[nodito]

Well, since I have accepted the Church’s stance, I’m just curious how this same concept of preparation should be approached by a Catholic, while still being sexually active with their spouse?

I think some of this preparation can be done before the couple is married. Not that you have to save a huge chunk of money to get married, but it’s not unreasonable to postpone marriage until the man has a solid job that could support a wife and children, or until both have jobs that will enable the couple to save a bit of money until children come. I think if there’s a small emergency savings account in place and the couple has health insurance that covers pregnancy, they don’t need to save a whole lot more before having children. And it’s also very possible that children won’t come right away anyway.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

The Church says that the couple decides the reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy. It is a husband/wife thing, not a ask everyone thing because what you may feel is a good enough reason may not be a good enough reason for another couple.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

The Church says that the couple decides the reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy.

Where?

It is a husband/wife thing, not a ask everyone thing because what you may feel is a good enough reason may not be a good enough reason for another couple.

Objectively (in God’s eyes), a reason is either good enough or not. “Sufficient” is a binary thing - something is either sufficient or it isn’t. Yes, there is some discernment in figuring out whether a reason meets the criterion, but a reason doesn’t become good enough by a couple’s fiat. So what’s the harm in trying to figure out if something really is good enough? (Really, I wouldn’t ask on a forum, though - I’d try to figure out what orthodox, traditional moral theologians/priests would say about it.)

 

[Kelfa28]

Well, we plan on living within our means, and do not want to gain debt.

I’m afraid I tend to think about things too much. lol

I’ll try to explain where I’m coming from. In the past, before agreeing with the Church’s stance on birth control, I probably would have said that a couple could use birth control to not get pregnant, and this would allow them to also have time to save money up for a kid, once they’ve planned for one.

Well, since I have accepted the Church’s stance, I’m just curious how this same concept of preparation should be approached by a Catholic, while still being sexually active with their spouse?

It’s the same approach…in all truth in honesty. The problem with people who use contraception is that they don’t really see where they can make sacrifices. They don’t review why they are still on contraception until someone brings up the idea of having another kid. There is also an ease about finality when it comes to children. It’s easy for a couple who uses to contraception to say “I’m all done” and never go back to the talk about sacrifice and why they are not having another baby.

People who use NFP have to revisit this concept far more often…even on a monthly basis. When something changes…you can talk and pray about this again.

My husband and I are expecting our second child. We thought we had everything planned out…until my husband lost his job.

Now we are bringing in exactly half what we were making before. We got rid of a car, a cell phone, cable…and I’ve stopped making double payments on one of my old student loans in order to pay it off quicker.

We’ve made other sacrifices as well. We cloth diaper and I nurse my babies. I don’t buy new outfits or toys anymore.

My husband is already back in school (no loans…we wouldn’t be doing school if I had to take out loans) to finish his degree and get a better job. I’m planning on going back to school next year.
Until then we are looking at a long haul of NFP…and trusting in God and lots of prayer. God knows better and if we are blessed with another soul…we will gladly accept.

We’ll probably be the only ones who would be excited. Our family is aware of our situation and would think we’d be crazy for having a third child.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Where?

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-are-some-reasons-that-justify-avoiding-pregnancy

 

[EasterJoy]

Where?

Objectively (in God’s eyes), a reason is either good enough or not. “Sufficient” is a binary thing - something is either sufficient or it isn’t. Yes, there is some discernment in figuring out whether a reason meets the criterion, but a reason doesn’t become good enough by a couple’s fiat. So what’s the harm in trying to figure out if something really is good enough? (Really, I wouldn’t ask on a forum, though - I’d try to figure out what orthodox, traditional moral theologians/priests would say about it.)

Humane Vitae. Go and look, if you don’t believe me…you will find nowhere in the document where the couple is asked to get an ecclesiastical consultation (as, for instance, canon law directs for those separating with the bond remaining in the absence of grave reasons). I defy you to find anywhere that the Church has defined what a sufficient reason is. Of course the couple can discern in bad faith, but a particular priest could discern incorrectly, too.

What is the alternative, exactly? To tell couples: “You’re fertile and you know it, so get to work?” Couples get to decide together when to come together and when to abstain. There are many good and bad reasons for that, but the Church is wise not to micromanage the decision.

 

[EasterJoy]

The Church says that the couple decides the reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy. It is a husband/wife thing, not a ask everyone thing because what you may feel is a good enough reason may not be a good enough reason for another couple.

Sometimes I think the Church does not preach enough on the spiritual perils of being a busybody who clucks at decisions made by those not under one’s own authority and gives advice that no one asked for. Those who want to stick their nose in are better off here, where at least our victims made the mistake of asking what we think!

 

[Kelfa28]

Where?

Objectively (in God’s eyes), a reason is either good enough or not. “Sufficient” is a binary thing - something is either sufficient or it isn’t. Yes, there is some discernment in figuring out whether a reason meets the criterion, but a reason doesn’t become good enough by a couple’s fiat. So what’s the harm in trying to figure out if something really is good enough? (Really, I wouldn’t ask on a forum, though - I’d try to figure out what orthodox, traditional moral theologians/priests would say about it.)

The Church has no specific list of what they consider “just reasons” to use NFP. This is something commonly misconstrued by Catholics. The Church uses broad reasons…such as financial and health reasons. But there is no specifics. Each couple us different.

The couple has to look at their specific situation and pray about it. They could ask for advice and opinions from outside sources…such as Priests or spiritual advisors…but it’s not mandatory they do so.
They know their situation better then anyone else…besides God. That is why the Church teaches that this is a decision that should be made by the couple and God.

 

[EasterJoy]

How can a young married couple be open to life through NFP, and at the same time, not be worried about finances in the case of having children?

I’m going to be getting married sometime relatively soon I’d say, but I’m not sure how to go about being sexually active, and not concerned a little about not having too much money saved up for children.

Be conservative about how you handle money now, but otherwise cross the bridge when you come to it. I’ll just warn you this: the situation where you don’t worry about money isn’t reached by getting a certain amount of money. It comes with trust in God and the ability to look prudently at your responsibilities. Don’t expect to slumber blissfully if you don’t trust God, though. It is the duty of parents to provide for their family’s financial future, but as went the Lord’s parable of the man with such bountiful harvests he had to put in new barns, you have probably stockpiled too much if you feel so confident that you don’t believe you need to rely on God any more!

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-are-some-reasons-that-justify-avoiding-pregnancy

From a quotation in that article we read “Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life”

Humane Vitae. Go and look, if you don’t believe me…you will find nowhere in the document where the couple is asked to get an ecclesiastical consultation (as, for instance, canon law directs for those separating with the bond remaining in the absence of grave reasons). I defy you to find anywhere that the Church has defined what a sufficient reason is. Of course the couple can discern in bad faith, but a particular priest could discern incorrectly, too.

Morality and canon law are not the same, so something can be a duty without being a canonical obligation. Further, the Church doesn’t typically define things on such a practical level. For example, try to find me a definition from ecclesiastical authority on what exactly is “meat” for Friday abstinence. You’ll find it in approved moral theologians’ work, but I wouldn’t expect to find a Church definition.

What is the alternative, exactly? To tell couples: “You’re fertile and you know it, so get to work?” Couples get to decide together when to come together and when to abstain. There are many good and bad reasons for that, but the Church is wise not to micromanage the decision.

The default is to have children and one should only space pregnancies if there are just reasons for doing so which are proportionate to the serious duty of marriage. So yes, it would be an accurate summary to say “you’re fertile and you know it, so get to work - unless you have a legitimate reason not to.” A bad reason is not made good by a couple’s fiat, so they would do well to seek advice from orthodox and traditional moral theologians/priests who are trained in these matters.

The Church has no specific list of what they consider “just reasons” to use NFP. This is something commonly misconstrued by Catholics. The Church uses broad reasons…such as financial and health reasons. But there is no specifics. Each couple us different.

The couple has to look at their specific situation and pray about it. They could ask for advice and opinions from outside sources…such as Priests or spiritual advisors…but it’s not mandatory they do so.
They know their situation better then anyone else…besides God. That is why the Church teaches that this is a decision that should be made by the couple and God.

I am only pointing out that the fact that a couple decides a certain thing constitutes a just cause does not make it in fact a just cause, nor does it mean that their decision is infallible and irreproachable. Therefore it is prudent to seek advice if the matter is uncertain. There are always dangers of deceiving ourselves (or even just honestly messing up) in these matters, but less so if we have the advice of wise people, which is why the Bible tells us that “the way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

 

[maryjk]

Sometimes I think the Church does not preach enough on the spiritual perils of being a busybody who clucks at decisions made by those not under one’s own authority and gives advice that no one asked for. Those who want to stick their nose in are better off here, where at least our victims made the mistake of asking what we think!

Love it. And you are right.

Below is a link to a wonderful blog about why the church doesn’t make a list. And why finances can effect different people in a different way.

patheos.com/blogs/simchafisher/2011/03/23/why-doesnt-the-church-just-make-a-list/

For instance, we could say, “Severe economic instability is a good reason to postpone pregnancy.” But …

**Woman A** grew up deathly poor, and fully expected to die before she hit age 40.  Her husband is disabled and often out of work, and sometimes they have to scramble for the rent on their tiny house — but this is routine and tolerable for them, and causes no turmoil.  With help from friends and government programs, they are raising happy, healthy children on $25,000 a year.
**Woman B** grew up wealthy, has always generously endowed Crisis Pregnancy Centers in her town, and always hoped to have a large family of her own.  But a catastrophe struck, she went bankrupt, and has to sell everything and move into a tiny house and live on $25,000 a year.  They’re still reeling from the shock of what their life has become, and are trying to learn how to accept help, rather than giving it.
**Woman C **lives a tiny house and live on $25,000 a year, which her husband manages thriftily, so no one is deprived.  But she makes him sleep on the couch until he agrees to quit his job at the library  so he can make more money and they can catch up with their fancy friends next door, who go to Rio every March.
**Woman D** recently quit her high-paying job so she can stay home and have babies.  They now live on her husband’s salary of $25,ooo a year and can hardly wait to fill their tiny new house with children.

You see? Objectively, the circumstances are the same, and “severe economic instability” describes all four. But their attitude toward having another baby right then would be entirely different. It’s not enough to say, “Lilies of the field and so on. We must trust God.” That’s not asking much from women A, but it’s asking heroism from woman B.

 

[maryjk]

From a quotation in that article we read “Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life”

Guess the rest of the quote didn’t fit into what you are trying to prove, so you dropped it from the quote.

**Ultimately, each couple must determine for themselves whether “just reasons” truly exist. **Vademecum for Confessors Concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life explains, “Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life” (2.3).

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

Guess the rest of the quote didn’t fit into what you are trying to prove, so you dropped it from the quote.

Guess “determining for themselves” and “seeking counsel” are mutually exclusive.

“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels.” Proverbs 12:15

 

[EasterJoy]

From a quotation in that article we read “Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life”

Morality and canon law are not the same, so something can be a duty without being a canonical obligation. Further, the Church doesn’t typically define things on such a practical level. For example, try to find me a definition from ecclesiastical authority on what exactly is “meat” for Friday abstinence. You’ll find it in approved moral theologians’ work, but I wouldn’t expect to find a Church definition.

I never said morality and canon law were the same thing. You asked where it said that this was up to the couple to discern, and I provided a citation, plus a counter-citation for a situation where ecclesiastical consultation was required. The decision to use NFP to avoid pregnancy is not a case where strict guidelines have been given or consultation with someone having pastoral authority over a couple is required.

BTW, “approved moral theologians” are approved so that we might know who to consult about legitimate ways to consider our moral problems, but that does not make them deputy morals police. They seek to elucidate the truth, not to rule over the lives of the faithful.

The default is to have children and one should only space pregnancies if there are just reasons for doing so which are proportionate to the serious duty of marriage. So yes, it would be an accurate summary to say “you’re fertile and you know it, so get to work - unless you have a legitimate reason not to.” A bad reason is not made good by a couple’s fiat, so they would do well to seek advice from orthodox and traditional moral theologians/priests who are trained in these matters.

I never said they would not “do well” to seek advice. I said they were not bound to do so and that there is no published list of objective boundaries for making their decision. Our good pastors are not so black-and-white in their guidance as some would like. I hate to say it, but many of those “who would like” do not want those guidelines for their own use, but go to look them up in order to prove that someone else making their own discernment is in the wrong. There is moral peril in the openness to that attitude, too, can we agree on that?

I am only pointing out that the fact that a couple decides a certain thing constitutes a just cause does not make it in fact a just cause, nor does it mean that their decision is infallible and irreproachable. Therefore it is prudent to seek advice if the matter is uncertain. There are always dangers of deceiving ourselves (or even just honestly messing up) in these matters, but less so if we have the advice of wise people, which is why the Bible tells us that “the way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

Did I say that a couple shouldn’t seek pastoral advice on such an important decision? I did not. I said that the Church has elected not to publish a list of guidelines for what is and is not a serious enough reason to use NFP to avoid having children, in response to your post expressing skepticism that the Church bid couples to discern this for themselves. I’m only pointing out that just because a couple has a serious moral decision to make, a decision that no one here is arguing can theoretically be made for the wrong reasons, does not imply that anyone else has carte blanche to stick their noses in, deceiving themselves that their (name removed by moderator)ut is wanted or needed by either the couple, by the couple’s pastor, or by Heaven.

 

[EasterJoy]

Guess “determining for themselves” and “seeking counsel” are mutually exclusive.

“The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels.” Proverbs 12:15

Of course we ought to seek counsel whenever we’re making a serious decision. I don’t think anyone here disputes that. The problem I see too often, though, is when certain ones among the faithful go around upsetting others because these certain members of the faithful seem to resent how obvious it is that they personally were not chosen for the consultation.

Since you are arguing in favor of the wisdom of couples looking for counsel from orthodox theologians, and not from your personally-generated guidelines or your pet favorite among our many capable and faithful theologians, I’m going to assume that we really don’t have a difference of opinion here, so much as a difference in what we emphasize when we write our opinions.