Money and openness to life?

[AuditVocemMeam]

Since you are arguing in favor of the wisdom of couples looking for counsel from orthodox theologians, and not from your personally-generated guidelines or your pet favorite among our many capable and faithful theologians, I’m going to assume that we really don’t have a difference of opinion here, so much as a difference in what we emphasize when we write our opinions.

Sounds reasonable, I just wanted to emphasize one side because I don’t want people to get the implication that “it’s OUR decision and no one at all can say anything about that or have any (name removed by moderator)ut” is the right attitude to take, or that there’s no objectivity here so it’s completely based on whether a couple decides (or rather determines, actively rather than passively) that something is a serious reason or not, as opposed to discerning.

 

[SpeakKindly]

Sounds reasonable, I just wanted to emphasize one side because I don’t want people to get the implication that “it’s OUR decision and no one at all can say anything about that or have any (name removed by moderator)ut” is the right attitude to take, or that there’s no objectivity here so it’s completely based on whether a couple decides (or rather determines, actively rather than passively) that something is a serious reason or not, as opposed to discerning.

So, would you say there’s an obligation to ask for counsel?

 

[EasterJoy]

Sounds reasonable, I just wanted to emphasize one side because I don’t want people to get the implication that “it’s OUR decision and no one at all can say anything about that or have any (name removed by moderator)ut” is the right attitude to take, or that there’s no objectivity here so it’s completely based on whether a couple decides (or rather determines, actively rather than passively) that something is a serious reason or not, as opposed to discerning.

So
a) Catholics should be encouraged to consult with the opinions of those who have taken the trouble on behalf of discerning couples to thoroughly study this issue and how it fits into the authentic expression of the Christian life with regards to marriage, BUT
b) if you don’t have the office to guide people on these matters or you weren’t asked into someone’s particular consultation (as opposed to joining in a theoretical discussion not pertaining to anyone in particular, for example), minding your own business is also a spiritual aspiration worthy of a faithful Christian.

Yeah, that’s about right.

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

So, would you say there’s an obligation to ask for counsel?

I don’t know - that’s out of the scope of what I’m trying to say, really. I’m not making any claims on that point, just that it is a very good decision and wise to seek counsel. I will say, though, that if it were me, I would get advice from my superiors (confessor, etc).

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

So
a) Catholics should be encouraged to consult with the opinions of those who have taken the trouble on behalf of discerning couples to thoroughly study this issue and how it fits into the authentic expression of the Christian life with regards to marriage, BUT
b) if you don’t have the office to guide people on these matters or you weren’t asked into someone’s particular consultation (as opposed to joining in a theoretical discussion not pertaining to anyone in particular, for example), minding your own business is also a spiritual aspiration worthy of a faithful Christian.

Yeah, that’s about right.

Yes.

 

[EasterJoy]

So, would you say there’s an obligation to ask for counsel?

When I was taught moral theology in high school, I was taught that Catholics are generally required to exercise diligence in educating themselves with regards to the moral law governing the moral situations they face. So while there is not an obligation to seek counsel in a particular case if you have taken the trouble to educate yourself beforehand for the very situation you are currently facing, it is common sense that we will not be able to beg ignorance for bad moral decisions when it is our own fault that we were ignorant in the first place.

Does that sound about right, AuditVocemMeam?

 

[AuditVocemMeam]

When I was taught moral theology in high school, I was taught that Catholics are generally required to exercise diligence in educating themselves with regards to the moral law governing the moral situations they face. So while there is not an obligation to seek counsel in a particular case if you have taken the trouble to educate yourself beforehand for the very situation you are currently facing, it is common sense that we will not be able to beg ignorance for bad moral decisions when it is our own fault that we were ignorant in the first place.

Does that sound about right, AuditVocemMeam?

Yes. Sounds like you had good instruction

 

[St_Francis]

How can a young married couple be open to life through NFP, and at the same time, not be worried about finances in the case of having children?

I’m going to be getting married sometime relatively soon I’d say, but I’m not sure how to go about being sexually active, and not concerned a little about not having too much money saved up for children.

To get back to your question.

You will never have enough _____ or be ______ enough to be “ready” to have children. Too much of that comes after the child is born. We are all works in progress, both parents and children must *learn *what they need to know to do what they are doing. It’s the ultimate on-the-job-training work-study program!

What one lady said is also true: prepare ahead of time! You now have the opportunity to do a lot–this is a list of suggestions to choose from!: you can learn to sew, knit, bake, etc., your fiance can learn to make repairs and do wordworking, the two of you can learn to garden. You can actually learn about all your activites together and don’t segregate by sex just because that is what is expected–I would love to learn woodworking.

As long as two of you are working, live only on one income. The other income can go to paying off debts and savings. Don’t use it all on paying off debts if you have them, save some for emergencies. When you have paid off all your debts, save it all.

Save any raises you get as well as the extra paychecks (4 per year if paid weekly, etc).

When you get a mortgage, get a 30-year but make one extra payment a year (out of those extra pay checks, or 1/12 extra each payment) and your mortgage will be paid off very early. The higher the interest, the more you will save.

Have a budget and stick to it. Have a certain set amount for each of you to spend as you please even if it’s just $5/week. Discuss big purchases together and be sure of what you want–don’t do something impulsive just because you can get a good or even super-duper deal. The savings are for use on big purchases but don’t go nuts on it and set aside some for long-range stuff like college and retirement.

Always buy used cars, but make sure they are very good used cars. New cars lose so much value when you drive them out of the dealership…

Probably there are few people who have done all the right things; this is kind of a partial list I would give to my younger self if I could travel through time.

 

[Xantippe]

“I’m going to be getting married sometime relatively soon I’d say, but I’m not sure how to go about being sexually active, and not concerned a little about not having too much money saved up for children.”

St. Francis’s list is very good.

I would add:

1. Take Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University with your future spouse.
2. Bear in mind that this will all sound very silly (and/or tragically mistaken) if it turns out that it’s difficult for you to conceive and successfully bear a child.
3. Having kids will use up all your money. Meaning, if you earn a little, it will feel like you spend all your money on the kids, and if you earn a lot, it will still feel like you spend all your money on the kids. Whatever you make, you’re going to spend a big chunk of it on stuff that you wouldn’t have if you were childless.
4. Babies generally give months of warning before arriving.
5. Anybody who has sex has to be prepared for the eventuality of pregnancy, even if they are using two types of birth control or they’ve been sterilized. There’s nothing unusual about NFP couples in that sense, except for the fact that they are generally more keenly aware of the possibility of pregnancy. (There’s an old joke where a girl tells her boyfriend, “I’m pregnant!” and he says, “How could this have happened?” People really do get surprised by the fact that all the reproductive activity they’ve engaged in has finally resulted in…reproduction.)

 

[SpeakKindly]

Very good advice in this thread, thank you guys!

Oh, and I’m a male by the way (I guess my username seems a bit feminine or something, as I get referenced as a female on this board sometimes).

Oh, and is there anyway to change my religion? I’m actually in RCIA right now, and I didn’t know if I should have put that or Catholic when I made this username.

 

[Antecedent]

Pretty simply - don’t get married until you have an established career. Sorry if this sounds harsh and pragmatic, but I have seen dozens of young people marry before either has established a career and then think somehow God will provide. Well, God may have expected you to pray and discern very seriously before you commit as well. I think the desire to get married before you can support children is irresponsible. I married older. After I had established a career and finished an advanced education because my wife and I wanted the same thing. It only took 5 years of postponing marriage to get all of this done, and hard focus on a career for the early years. It was hard work and discipline to establish a career path, get rid of debt buy a modest house you can afford on one income and save money. We’ve been very open to life once married and now have 6 kids and I have a comfortable income and are virtually debt free.

 

[moon1234]

The Church says that the couple decides the reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy. It is a husband/wife thing, not a ask everyone thing because what you may feel is a good enough reason may not be a good enough reason for another couple.

Actually Kendra, the couple has to have a serious reason to use NFP. Money may or may not be a serious issue, but to want to postpone children for money reasons, yet still get married, seems a bit selfish doesn’t it? If the time is not right to welcome children into the home, then the time is not right to get married.

 

[Xantippe]

“If the time is not right to welcome children into the home, then the time is not right to get married.”

Does that mean that if my fiance loses his job, we have to call off the wedding? (Hypothetically speaking.)

 

[moon1234]

From a quotation in that article we read “Certainly it is a duty of married couples—who, for that matter, should seek appropriate counsel—to deliberate deeply and in a spirit of faith about the size of their family, and to decide the concrete mode of realizing it, with respect for the moral criteria of conjugal life”

Morality and canon law are not the same, so something can be a duty without being a canonical obligation. Further, the Church doesn’t typically define things on such a practical level. For example, try to find me a definition from ecclesiastical authority on what exactly is “meat” for Friday abstinence. You’ll find it in approved moral theologians’ work, but I wouldn’t expect to find a Church definition.

Catholic Encyclopedia - Issued by the Catholic Church
newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm
Meat diet comprises the flesh, blood, or marrow of such animals and birds as constitute flesh meat according to the appreciation of intelligent and law-abiding Christians. For this reason the use of fish, vegetables, mollusks, crabs, turtles, frogs, and such-like cold-blooded creatures is not at variance with the law of abstinence.

The default is to have children and one should only space pregnancies if there are just reasons for doing so which are proportionate to the serious duty of marriage. So yes, it would be an accurate summary to say “you’re fertile and you know it, so get to work - unless you have a legitimate reason not to.” A bad reason is not made good by a couple’s fiat, so they would do well to seek advice from orthodox and traditional moral theologians/priests who are trained in these matters.

I am only pointing out that the fact that a couple decides a certain thing constitutes a just cause does not make it in fact a just cause, nor does it mean that their decision is infallible and irreproachable. Therefore it is prudent to seek advice if the matter is uncertain. There are always dangers of deceiving ourselves (or even just honestly messing up) in these matters, but less so if we have the advice of wise people, which is why the Bible tells us that “the way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels” (Proverbs 12:15).

Read Pope Pius XII address to Italian Midwives where he addresses many of these topics and essentially says that using the sterile periods of a woman’s cycle exclusively must be given serious thought and have serious reasons. He also says that there is no issue with using the sterile periods so long as sex is not being limited to the sterile periods without serious cause and careful reflection.

Since it was asked by the OP if NFP is allowed for financial reasons there are going to be a lot of responses that vary all over the board what serious reasons means. For a couple living a particular lifestyle they enjoy to have to alter that lifestyle to afford a child is one possible issue. For a couple living on government assistance, food stamps, etc. it is quite another issue to discern.

If people come here and ask others for (name removed by moderator)ut then they will get responses which they may or may not like. Said responses may offend others who feel the response is a little too personal to their situation and get upset when their decision is not affirmed by others.

Suffice it to say that what I hear from the pulpit on Sunday is that NFP can be used for good to conceive a child and it can be used for evil when the couple is not in agreement, there is not serious reasons, etc. What may be a problem for one couple (losing your sanity if any more children arrive until the current ones are older) may be a non-issue for others (have 12 children and just love it, Thrive on the challenge).

The take away is that NFP is given careful thought and only used when it is necessary and not for convenience.

 

[moon1234]

“If the time is not right to welcome children into the home, then the time is not right to get married.”

Does that mean that if my fiance loses his job, we have to call off the wedding? (Hypothetically speaking.)

Put it a different way, would you loan money to someone who you knew did not have the ability, currently, to pay it back? Sometimes life throws us curveballs and we must adapt to them.

I, and this is just me, would NOT get married with all of the bells and whistles if I could not pay for it in full at the time of the wedding and had no financial way to support my new family. It is one thing to deal with if you are already married and lose financial income, it is quite another to enter into marriage when one is not prepared and able to support a family.

This is one of the BIG items on discernment instruction. Money is one of, if not THE, single biggest items that causes stress in marriage. To intentionally create this type of scenario out of personal desire is selfish, is it not? To deal with it after you are married, have children, etc. is not the same scenario.

 

[moon1234]

How can a young married couple be open to life through NFP, and at the same time, not be worried about finances in the case of having children?

I’m going to be getting married sometime relatively soon I’d say, but I’m not sure how to go about being sexually active, and not concerned a little about not having too much money saved up for children.

As long as you are not in debt up to your eyeballs, children will not cost THAT much. You and your spouse must sit and talk about what will happen when a child does arrive. Will someone stay at home to raise the child? What effect will that have on being able to pay the bills? If the child will go to daycare, what effect will that have on the bills? Can you live in a smaller, less comfortable location/home, etc.? Can you give up things like cable tv, eating out, etc.?

These are ALL things you should discuss before getting married. If both of you understand what is expected of the other, then when children arrive you will not be in panic mode.

If in you intend to use NFP from the get go (and deny the other spouse the marriage duty if they ask for it) then I have to warn you that Pope Pius XII has stated that this is grounds for declaring the marriage invalid.

From Pope Pius XII address to Italian Midwives:
*Here again we are faced with two hypotheses. If, one of the parties contracted marriage with the intention of limiting the matrimonial right itself to the periods of sterility, and not only its use, in such a manner that during the other days the other party would not even have the right to ask for the debt, than this would imply an essential defect in the marriage consent, which would result in the marriage being invalid, because the right deriving from the marriage contract is a permanent, uninterrupted and continuous right of husband and wife with respect to each other. *

It is also good to note, for those who say that a moral or serious reason is not required, Pope Pius XII also said in the same address:

*The mere fact that husband and wife do not offend the nature of the act and are even ready to accept and bring up the child, who, notwithstanding their precautions, might be born, **would not **be itself sufficient to guarantee the rectitude of their intention and the unobjectionable morality of their motives. *

 

[SpeakKindly]

As long as you are not in debt up to your eyeballs, children will not cost THAT much. You and your spouse must sit and talk about what will happen when a child does arrive. Will someone stay at home to raise the child? What effect will that have on being able to pay the bills? If the child will go to daycare, what effect will that have on the bills? Can you live in a smaller, less comfortable location/home, etc.? Can you give up things like cable tv, eating out, etc.?

These are ALL things you should discuss before getting married. If both of you understand what is expected of the other, then when children arrive you will not be in panic mode.

If in you intend to use NFP from the get go (and deny the other spouse the marriage duty if they ask for it) then I have to warn you that Pope Pius XII has stated that this is grounds for declaring the marriage invalid.

From Pope Pius XII address to Italian Midwives:
Here again we are faced with two hypotheses. If, one of the parties contracted marriage with the intention of limiting the matrimonial right itself to the periods of sterility, and not only its use, in such a manner that during the other days the other party would not even have the right to ask for the debt, than this would imply an essential defect in the marriage consent, which would result in the marriage being invalid, because the right deriving from the marriage contract is a permanent, uninterrupted and continuous right of husband and wife with respect to each other.

The bold sounds like it’s saying that if someone marries and intends to use NFP (sex on sterile days), but does not allow their spouse to have sex at any other point (if they ask, or desire to) - then this is wrong.

However, you’re saying that if a newlywed couple intends on using NFP until they believe they’re ready to try for a child (have sex on fertile days), then this is wrong.

Which is the correct interpretation?

 

[moon1234]

The bold sounds like it’s saying that if someone marries and intends to use NFP (sex on sterile days), but does not allow their spouse to have sex at any other point (if they ask, or desire to) - then this is wrong.

However, you’re saying that if a newlywed couple intends on using NFP until they believe they’re ready to try for a child (have sex on fertile days), then this is wrong.

Which is the correct interpretation?

What the Pope is saying here is that if you marry with the intention of only having sex on the infertile days and not allowing your spouse to have sex on those days which are fertile, then you have in essence contracted an invalid marriage and the other partner could ask for an annulment and it would be granted.

The key part of Pope Pius XII’s address, concerning NFP, is here:

*The mere fact that husband and wife do not offend the nature of the act and are even ready to accept and bring up the child, who, notwithstanding their precautions, might be born, would not be itself sufficient to guarantee the rectitude of their intention and the unobjectionable morality of their motives. *

What he is saying here is that even if you only have sex on the sterile days and are still open to having children that the simple act of being “open to a baby” is not enough to make the limiting of sex to the sterile days right or moral.

What he is trying to say, without being offensive, is that a serious reason must be present to limit sex to the sterile days only. He, nor anyone since, has defined “serious” reasons, but he does say that simply being open to life is not enough to make the act moral or right.

It would be best to read the following in order:

Pius XI, Casti Connubii

Pius XII Address to Italian Midwives

Then any and all documents from VII such as Humane Vitae and Theology of the Body. Keeping in mind that the documents that come later should be read in context with what came become. Since the Church does not contradict itself and change doctrine, what Pope Pius XI and Pius XII said holds true with the later documents. The later documents do not replace the older ones, rather they expand on the previous teaching.

When people read only the documents from VII and later they do not get the fullness of the teaching and the understanding that they would when reading all of the previous teaching up until that point.

In conclusion, my personal opinion would be, that if you are not ready to welcome children into the world when you get married, then you are not ready to be married. The primary and secondary ends of marriage are to welcome children into the world (procreation) and to provide happiness to each other. You can not divorce one from the other. They both must be present.

Limiting sex to only the sterile periods should only be done with the continuing consent of both spouses, a serious reason and possibly with the consultation of a priest, etc. if you have any doubt about the seriousness of your reason.

If you could not go to your spouse and ask to have sex when the female is ovulating, meaning one partner will refuse, then what Pope Pius XII is saying is that if you entered marriage with this mindset the marriage is invalid (Does not exist, never happened).

 

[Xantippe]

moon1234 said:

“Put it a different way, would you loan money to someone who you knew did not have the ability, currently, to pay it back? Sometimes life throws us curveballs and we must adapt to them.”

I would not lend any money to any friend or relative, ever. Either I have the money to give or I don’t. As Proverbs says, “The borrower is slave to the lender.” I don’t want slaves.

“I, and this is just me, would NOT get married with all of the bells and whistles if I could not pay for it in full at the time of the wedding and had no financial way to support my new family.”

Let’s assume the wedding is being paid for in cash and the happy couple also has a moderate emergency fund and the wife still has a job. Would you still say, delay the wedding?

 

[moon1234]

I would not lend any money to any friend or relative, ever. Either I have the money to give or I don’t. As Proverbs says, “The borrower is slave to the lender.” I don’t want slaves.

It was meant more as a rhetorical question. Remove family member and insert complete stranger. When a bank loans money they want to secure their loan to make sure they get paid back. If a person does not have enough income to pay the loan, then the bank will not issue the credit.

Let’s assume the wedding is being paid for in cash and the happy couple also has a moderate emergency fund and the wife still has a job. Would you still say, delay the wedding?

It is not really for me to advise the couple. I provided what I consider to be sound advice on how to prepare for children. It is up to each couple to decide if they are “Ready”.

I can provide some information about our own life for comparison, but I must preface it by saying that what we did was right for us. It may not be for another couple. Money is important, but it is not a show stopper. It is possible to live a very frugal life and be happy. You don’t need to own a home right away or have many of the luxuries that society tells us we need to have. YOU must talk about that as a couple. DO NOT wait until after you are married to discuss this or you will both be under a lot of stress. If a plan is in place before marriage about babies, etc. It will be a LOT easier when/if baby comes.

When my wife and I were married we were 20 and 21 years old (me being 21). We both had jobs. We had talked about and agreed that when the baby came my wife would become a stay at home mom. We did a budget to make sure that we could afford to pay all of our bills and still have some extra afterwards when the baby came. This means writing it down on paper, not guesstimating.

We lived in a one bedroom country home that was really designed more for a single person for the first three years of our married life. We had two children before we moved out of this home. $400/month in 1999. From there we moved to a two bedroom house that also had a loft area where two additional kids bedrooms could be located. $600/month

Both of these places were rented. We were saving to buy a home. We did not purchase our first home until we had been married for eight years. $900/month mortgage. We are still in that first home that we purchased. We have three bedrooms and eight children. We hope to build our first home in the next year or two and have six bedrooms.

Many of our friends would NOT live in a three bedroom home with 10 people. It is not easy and many times my wife and I get flustered, but we are a happy family for the most part.

I hope that the information I provided gives you a starting point to understand what the Church is teaching so that you and your spouse to be can sit together and decide how to plan your life together.